RE: INEOS Grenadier prototype | PH Review
Discussion
RacerMike said:
Ingegnere Enzo said:
I have faith in the concept and paid my deposit.
After seeing how JLR had missed the requirement for a genuine off roader, there is little choice if you want to use it off road seriously.
I live in north of Scotland where all current JLR products fail, gearboxes, electrics, engines, you name it, it breaks up here!
The concept is sound, the engineering impressive but best of all is the access to full workshop manuals so no expensive dealer ripoffs
It's statements like this that really confuse me. Surely any person with an interest in cars understands what's already be pointed out by me and others? All of those things you mention that fail on JLR products are literally the same components on the Grenadier. There's such a small pool of suppliers and parts these days that you're reliant on the engineering of the suppliers. After seeing how JLR had missed the requirement for a genuine off roader, there is little choice if you want to use it off road seriously.
I live in north of Scotland where all current JLR products fail, gearboxes, electrics, engines, you name it, it breaks up here!
The concept is sound, the engineering impressive but best of all is the access to full workshop manuals so no expensive dealer ripoffs
So in the case of the Grenadier, the gearbox, electrics and engines will be the same ones you'll find in a Land Rover. The gearbox is confirmed as being the ZF 8HP (same as is widely used in all current Land Rovers), the electric modules will most certainly be manufactured by the same suppliers who supply LR like Lear and the engines are complete BMW units which have their own reliability issues which are no different to anyone else. So what exactly have Ineos (or rather Magna) done that means those standard components are going to be more reliable?
I like a few others have paid a deposit
Over the years for off roading and living in the hills on the Welsh borders have had 2 x LR Defender 90's 3 x early eighties G Wagons, the old ones not the newer Chelsea show ponies, Disco I, II, II, P38A RR L322 RR and L405 RR the last RR was nightmare and means no new JLR products for me, should have learnt the lesson as before that I had just after launch a supercharged fPaces it broke, a lot and was swapped gave them the on second back for the same reason and was fully refunded. Also used to run a late 90's LC which had the injectors replaced twice under warranty and was a lot less reliable than my L322 which I had at the same time.
Wife had last generation Ford Ranger, ok but bits broke, drive shafts, current Navara didn't brake but a dreadful drive and now current Ranger six months old and seems ok but those are 43k including VAT list price (in Wildtrack spec).
Have seen that they will offer a pick up option which will be priced about the same as the new Amarok.
Given the Japanese car firms seem to be getting into looking at hydrogen as a fuel rather than in a fuel cell EV then being one of the biggest producers of Hydrogen might help Ineos.
Ideally I want a SWB to replace my old daily a SWB shogun so will hold on for that variant and will sell the Mitsi and an old 3dr properly off road set up G for the Ineos and hopping it replaces both use cases, daily driver, towing farm trailers and some serious mud plugged
Would not touch a new LR Defender in any circumstances only other viable option might be commercial SWB LC but they are 44k so will be about the same price I expect as a SWB Ineos
Over the years for off roading and living in the hills on the Welsh borders have had 2 x LR Defender 90's 3 x early eighties G Wagons, the old ones not the newer Chelsea show ponies, Disco I, II, II, P38A RR L322 RR and L405 RR the last RR was nightmare and means no new JLR products for me, should have learnt the lesson as before that I had just after launch a supercharged fPaces it broke, a lot and was swapped gave them the on second back for the same reason and was fully refunded. Also used to run a late 90's LC which had the injectors replaced twice under warranty and was a lot less reliable than my L322 which I had at the same time.
Wife had last generation Ford Ranger, ok but bits broke, drive shafts, current Navara didn't brake but a dreadful drive and now current Ranger six months old and seems ok but those are 43k including VAT list price (in Wildtrack spec).
Have seen that they will offer a pick up option which will be priced about the same as the new Amarok.
Given the Japanese car firms seem to be getting into looking at hydrogen as a fuel rather than in a fuel cell EV then being one of the biggest producers of Hydrogen might help Ineos.
Ideally I want a SWB to replace my old daily a SWB shogun so will hold on for that variant and will sell the Mitsi and an old 3dr properly off road set up G for the Ineos and hopping it replaces both use cases, daily driver, towing farm trailers and some serious mud plugged
Would not touch a new LR Defender in any circumstances only other viable option might be commercial SWB LC but they are 44k so will be about the same price I expect as a SWB Ineos
Another deposit paid. On balance/to date the Grenadier looks a fine vehicle to have. I look forward to hearing whether it will also work on the road. It doesn’t need to be excellent but it needs to be good ie reasonably fuel efficient, very reliable, not maintenance heavy, quiet and brisk even if it is amazing off-road (which I acknowledge is also yet to be properly proven)
I am absolutely sure that even in 2022 and beyond there is a market for this vehicle.
The problem is that market seems extremely unlikely to ever be anywhere near 25,000 cars globally, especially after the first year.
The reaosn JLR sell posh SUVs to rich-people-who-want-a-new-one-every-year is because, der, they buy a new one every year!
Once the people who want a Grenadier have one, then what? I predict a decent but not astonishing first six months of sales, followed by silence.
In terms of reliability, the Japanese have proved that having a reasonably modern common rail diesel, a fair few ECU's and multispeed autobox is not an absolute no-no, but they have lower performance targets than BMW, and have extremely rigerous (ie expensive and long winded) validation and durability programs. They simply drive their products into the ground, fixing the thing that breaks each time, and repeat till nothing breaks.
My question is can Ineos (ok Steyr) do this with a hotch potch collection of left overs from other OE's?
As JLR proves, you can have the best components in the world (and JLR actually tend to use pretty good stuff tbh) but they get let down by basic faults. The new Defender was, imo, probably the first car they have made that is what i would call "properly" developed, ie developed with enough rigor to be, basically reliable (and i believe it is actually, once the first teething issues are sorted, which is normal on the first few years of actual production vehicles).
The problem is that market seems extremely unlikely to ever be anywhere near 25,000 cars globally, especially after the first year.
The reaosn JLR sell posh SUVs to rich-people-who-want-a-new-one-every-year is because, der, they buy a new one every year!
Once the people who want a Grenadier have one, then what? I predict a decent but not astonishing first six months of sales, followed by silence.
In terms of reliability, the Japanese have proved that having a reasonably modern common rail diesel, a fair few ECU's and multispeed autobox is not an absolute no-no, but they have lower performance targets than BMW, and have extremely rigerous (ie expensive and long winded) validation and durability programs. They simply drive their products into the ground, fixing the thing that breaks each time, and repeat till nothing breaks.
My question is can Ineos (ok Steyr) do this with a hotch potch collection of left overs from other OE's?
As JLR proves, you can have the best components in the world (and JLR actually tend to use pretty good stuff tbh) but they get let down by basic faults. The new Defender was, imo, probably the first car they have made that is what i would call "properly" developed, ie developed with enough rigor to be, basically reliable (and i believe it is actually, once the first teething issues are sorted, which is normal on the first few years of actual production vehicles).
Max_Torque said:
I am absolutely sure that even in 2022 and beyond there is a market for this vehicle.
The reaosn JLR sell posh SUVs to rich-people-who-want-a-new-one-every-year is because, der, they buy a new one every year!
Once the people who want a Grenadier have one, then what? I predict a decent but not astonishing first six months of sales, followed by silence.
They will have the same problem that Lotus had with their launch into America. Sell to all the people who waited for an Elise. Then a trickle as they don't have a sales area outside of an owners forum. The reaosn JLR sell posh SUVs to rich-people-who-want-a-new-one-every-year is because, der, they buy a new one every year!
Once the people who want a Grenadier have one, then what? I predict a decent but not astonishing first six months of sales, followed by silence.
In car terms they are making a Doro phone when they should have made a smart phone with satalite phone capabilities.
The Ford Lightening and the Rivian are useable tools even if you never drive them and that depth of capability is what defined the Range Rover as a benchmark of a do anything "swiss army knife" vehicle in its time. But I now want a 4x4 that will power the house not just drive down the muddy path.
Paracetamol said:
Hmmm... So it handles really well with no roll and has masses of suspension travel so is amazing off road.Basic physics says that's not correct.
Mackofthejungle said:
I don't dislike it...but that's because I like the Defender. They were fun. I never took mine off road, but it was an event just flying around. It was objectively s
t of course.
This is not a country crossing adventure vehicle, and if it's being advertised as one that's daft. It's a Defender built for the 90% of Defender drivers who bought into the idea, but suffered the cold, leaky, deafening interior as a result. It'll be a good, modern SUV with comparable off road ability to the latest LR's and Toyota's. It's got a fecking BMW engine for goodness sake - if they wanted it to be properly hardcore it'd have a simple Japanese turbo diesel. The talk of military variants is bonkers - just because it looks utilitarian doesn't mean it is.
This is the best post on here.t of course. This is not a country crossing adventure vehicle, and if it's being advertised as one that's daft. It's a Defender built for the 90% of Defender drivers who bought into the idea, but suffered the cold, leaky, deafening interior as a result. It'll be a good, modern SUV with comparable off road ability to the latest LR's and Toyota's. It's got a fecking BMW engine for goodness sake - if they wanted it to be properly hardcore it'd have a simple Japanese turbo diesel. The talk of military variants is bonkers - just because it looks utilitarian doesn't mean it is.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the new vehicle, but there is an assumption that many people have, based perhaps on the US idea that appearance trumps all other considerations that an off road vehicle has to look like an off road vehicle to be any good off road. This is exemplified by the One Life, Live It movement who think that huge ground clearance and massive tall and wide tyres make for a better off roader. This is still a complex first world vehicle which probably won't be suitable for the sorts of places that the old Land Rover and the 70 series LandCruiser were so successful in.
Newarch said:
Mackofthejungle said:
I don't dislike it...but that's because I like the Defender. They were fun. I never took mine off road, but it was an event just flying around. It was objectively st of course.
This is not a country crossing adventure vehicle, and if it's being advertised as one that's daft. It's a Defender built for the 90% of Defender drivers who bought into the idea, but suffered the cold, leaky, deafening interior as a result. It'll be a good, modern SUV with comparable off road ability to the latest LR's and Toyota's. It's got a fecking BMW engine for goodness sake - if they wanted it to be properly hardcore it'd have a simple Japanese turbo diesel. The talk of military variants is bonkers - just because it looks utilitarian doesn't mean it is.
This is the best post on here.t of course. This is not a country crossing adventure vehicle, and if it's being advertised as one that's daft. It's a Defender built for the 90% of Defender drivers who bought into the idea, but suffered the cold, leaky, deafening interior as a result. It'll be a good, modern SUV with comparable off road ability to the latest LR's and Toyota's. It's got a fecking BMW engine for goodness sake - if they wanted it to be properly hardcore it'd have a simple Japanese turbo diesel. The talk of military variants is bonkers - just because it looks utilitarian doesn't mean it is.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the new vehicle, but there is an assumption that many people have, based perhaps on the US idea that appearance trumps all other considerations that an off road vehicle has to look like an off road vehicle to be any good off road. This is exemplified by the One Life, Live It movement who think that huge ground clearance and massive tall and wide tyres make for a better off roader. This is still a complex first world vehicle which probably won't be suitable for the sorts of places that the old Land Rover and the 70 series LandCruiser were so successful in.
M
If this was BRITIRSH BUILD it would be the BEST THING SINCE THE SLICED PAN BUT IT IS NOT
WHAT COMPLETE AND UTTER KNOB to the above ANSWER JESUS who gives a fk where it is built
whatever happened to TVR meant to be built in Wales Never happened
I read a report that the UK was uneconomical to build in a bit like TVR & a bit like every car manufacturer
that has built in the UK ALVIS TRIUMPH HEALEY SUNBEAM TVR and many hundreds after
THE UK LIVING IN THE PAST who the fk would want to build a car there
A bunch of HYPOCRITES
WHAT COMPLETE AND UTTER KNOB to the above ANSWER JESUS who gives a f
k where it is built whatever happened to TVR meant to be built in Wales Never happened
I read a report that the UK was uneconomical to build in a bit like TVR & a bit like every car manufacturer
that has built in the UK ALVIS TRIUMPH HEALEY SUNBEAM TVR and many hundreds after
THE UK LIVING IN THE PAST who the f
k would want to build a car there A bunch of HYPOCRITES
ruairi50 said:
If this was BRITIRSH BUILD it would be the BEST THING SINCE THE SLICED PAN BUT IT IS NOT
WHAT COMPLETE AND UTTER KNOB to the above ANSWER JESUS who gives a fk where it is built
whatever happened to TVR meant to be built in Wales Never happened
I read a report that the UK was uneconomical to build in a bit like TVR & a bit like every car manufacturer
that has built in the UK ALVIS TRIUMPH HEALEY SUNBEAM TVR and many hundreds after
THE UK LIVING IN THE PAST who the fk would want to build a car there
A bunch of HYPOCRITES
WHAT COMPLETE AND UTTER KNOB to the above ANSWER JESUS who gives a f
k where it is built whatever happened to TVR meant to be built in Wales Never happened
I read a report that the UK was uneconomical to build in a bit like TVR & a bit like every car manufacturer
that has built in the UK ALVIS TRIUMPH HEALEY SUNBEAM TVR and many hundreds after
THE UK LIVING IN THE PAST who the f
k would want to build a car there A bunch of HYPOCRITES
944 Man said:
This is why you should not drink and type.
I don’t know. I love a bit of SLICED PAN.Edited by w1bbles on Sunday 27th February 07:22
camel_landy said:
Newarch said:
Mackofthejungle said:
I don't dislike it...but that's because I like the Defender. They were fun. I never took mine off road, but it was an event just flying around. It was objectively st of course.
This is not a country crossing adventure vehicle, and if it's being advertised as one that's daft. It's a Defender built for the 90% of Defender drivers who bought into the idea, but suffered the cold, leaky, deafening interior as a result. It'll be a good, modern SUV with comparable off road ability to the latest LR's and Toyota's. It's got a fecking BMW engine for goodness sake - if they wanted it to be properly hardcore it'd have a simple Japanese turbo diesel. The talk of military variants is bonkers - just because it looks utilitarian doesn't mean it is.
This is the best post on here.t of course. This is not a country crossing adventure vehicle, and if it's being advertised as one that's daft. It's a Defender built for the 90% of Defender drivers who bought into the idea, but suffered the cold, leaky, deafening interior as a result. It'll be a good, modern SUV with comparable off road ability to the latest LR's and Toyota's. It's got a fecking BMW engine for goodness sake - if they wanted it to be properly hardcore it'd have a simple Japanese turbo diesel. The talk of military variants is bonkers - just because it looks utilitarian doesn't mean it is.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the new vehicle, but there is an assumption that many people have, based perhaps on the US idea that appearance trumps all other considerations that an off road vehicle has to look like an off road vehicle to be any good off road. This is exemplified by the One Life, Live It movement who think that huge ground clearance and massive tall and wide tyres make for a better off roader. This is still a complex first world vehicle which probably won't be suitable for the sorts of places that the old Land Rover and the 70 series LandCruiser were so successful in.
M
If they were pitching it for 30% less, then ok that makes sense, .....but they are creating the 'best' off Roading from the 1980s (for most people) combining it with their attempt at modern 21st automotive technology (phenomenally complicated)...then flogging it for premium money, without a target audience in mind.
You'd have to be absolutely mad to consider this as a purchase!
Andeh1 said:
This is all well & true, maybe, but when it launches for MORE MONEY then a brand new Defender, (which does everything Off Road, On Road, luxury, toys, brand recognition, comfort, safety, mpg etc etc)...it's madness, this is why the Grenadier is laughable.
If they were pitching it for 30% less, then ok that makes sense, .....but they are creating the 'best' off Roading from the 1980s (for most people) combining it with their attempt at modern 21st automotive technology (phenomenally complicated)...then flogging it for premium money, without a target audience in mind.
You'd have to be absolutely mad to consider this as a purchase!
What makes you think it's going to be more money?If they were pitching it for 30% less, then ok that makes sense, .....but they are creating the 'best' off Roading from the 1980s (for most people) combining it with their attempt at modern 21st automotive technology (phenomenally complicated)...then flogging it for premium money, without a target audience in mind.
You'd have to be absolutely mad to consider this as a purchase!
Everything I've seen seems to suggest it will undercut the real world prices of the Defender.
Anyway they seem quite different vehicles, one is a monocoque the other a body on frame, that alone will discount one or the other to a lot of people.
A car salesman friend of mine was called into a meeting at work last week and informed that their large dealership premises (which sells multiple big brands in several showrooms next to each other) will be reshuffled in the next month so they can be one of the first INEOS showrooms/dealerships.
For this meeting, a Grenadier was brought to show them, by a team from INEOS, and they all got to sit in it, ask all their questions, and that sort of thing.
My friend is now enthusiastically talking about how good it is, and how well it will sell. He has to be in that mindset though, as he is going to be forced to sell the thing, and if he doesn't sell enough of them, his family will starve to death... Not literally of course, but their basic salary without sales commission is minimum wage, and at present, he enjoys a very healthy income from selling BMW's.
We then had the exact same discussion as on here, and argued about who would buy it. We discussed at length:
The purchase price
Target market
Brand image
Badge snobbery
Unstoppable desirability of JLR products (despite some reliability issues)
The proven reputation and well priced nature of Japanese pickup trucks and 4x4's.
Yet unproven reliability of the Grenadier
Lack of established dealer/repair/spares network
Residual values
The whole Brexit/British vehicle/France/Monaco debacle.
We then came to the conclusion as many others on this thread have, and reckon that the buyers will be:
1) a handful of oddballs who want one because they 'need' a car that will last them at least 30 years, for erm, reasons.
2) a couple of people who live at the top of a mountain in the Cairngorms, and their Land Rover Discovery broke down on them 4 years ago, so they want a Grenadier instead.
3) a few people who will order one in sparkling metallic black with the leather interior, big wheels, and LED spot lamps, and no doubt a big matt grey Union Jack decal on the bonnet, to leave parked in Bond Street and purely so they can be one of the first to show off the new toy.
And that will be about it. In the fist 6 months they will have a rush of orders as all 78 people who want one go and buy it, and then.... nothing.
Farmers, Ltd Co's, builders, tradesmen, utility companies, will carry on ordering pickup trucks at far less money than a Grenadier. People who want 'luxury' 4x4's with a touch of badge snobbery about them, will carry on buying Land Rovers, Mercedes, BMW etc. The 3rd world and developing nations will carry on buying base model Toyota and Isuzu pickups for half the price of the Grenadier.
My friend is now stocking up on tins of SPAM and baked beans...
For this meeting, a Grenadier was brought to show them, by a team from INEOS, and they all got to sit in it, ask all their questions, and that sort of thing.
My friend is now enthusiastically talking about how good it is, and how well it will sell. He has to be in that mindset though, as he is going to be forced to sell the thing, and if he doesn't sell enough of them, his family will starve to death... Not literally of course, but their basic salary without sales commission is minimum wage, and at present, he enjoys a very healthy income from selling BMW's.
We then had the exact same discussion as on here, and argued about who would buy it. We discussed at length:
The purchase price
Target market
Brand image
Badge snobbery
Unstoppable desirability of JLR products (despite some reliability issues)
The proven reputation and well priced nature of Japanese pickup trucks and 4x4's.
Yet unproven reliability of the Grenadier
Lack of established dealer/repair/spares network
Residual values
The whole Brexit/British vehicle/France/Monaco debacle.
We then came to the conclusion as many others on this thread have, and reckon that the buyers will be:
1) a handful of oddballs who want one because they 'need' a car that will last them at least 30 years, for erm, reasons.
2) a couple of people who live at the top of a mountain in the Cairngorms, and their Land Rover Discovery broke down on them 4 years ago, so they want a Grenadier instead.
3) a few people who will order one in sparkling metallic black with the leather interior, big wheels, and LED spot lamps, and no doubt a big matt grey Union Jack decal on the bonnet, to leave parked in Bond Street and purely so they can be one of the first to show off the new toy.
And that will be about it. In the fist 6 months they will have a rush of orders as all 78 people who want one go and buy it, and then.... nothing.
Farmers, Ltd Co's, builders, tradesmen, utility companies, will carry on ordering pickup trucks at far less money than a Grenadier. People who want 'luxury' 4x4's with a touch of badge snobbery about them, will carry on buying Land Rovers, Mercedes, BMW etc. The 3rd world and developing nations will carry on buying base model Toyota and Isuzu pickups for half the price of the Grenadier.
My friend is now stocking up on tins of SPAM and baked beans...
ruairi50 said:
If this was BRITIRSH BUILD it would be the BEST THING SINCE THE SLICED PAN BUT IT IS NOT
WHAT COMPLETE AND UTTER KNOB to the above ANSWER JESUS who gives a fk where it is built
whatever happened to TVR meant to be built in Wales Never happened
I read a report that the UK was uneconomical to build in a bit like TVR & a bit like every car manufacturer
that has built in the UK ALVIS TRIUMPH HEALEY SUNBEAM TVR and many hundreds after
THE UK LIVING IN THE PAST who the fk would want to build a car there
A bunch of HYPOCRITES
When the fun stops, stop.WHAT COMPLETE AND UTTER KNOB to the above ANSWER JESUS who gives a f
k where it is built whatever happened to TVR meant to be built in Wales Never happened
I read a report that the UK was uneconomical to build in a bit like TVR & a bit like every car manufacturer
that has built in the UK ALVIS TRIUMPH HEALEY SUNBEAM TVR and many hundreds after
THE UK LIVING IN THE PAST who the f
k would want to build a car there A bunch of HYPOCRITES
Have a look at Nissan Sunderland. Or indeed a few other incredibly successful, World leading car production plants in the UK.
By talking about Triumph and Sunbeam, you're demonstrating the last source of knowledge you had about British manufacturing is 40 years old.
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