RE: INEOS Grenadier prototype | PH Review
Discussion
Sway said:
They are.
For Ineos, that was fully paid for by someone else, then gifted to them.
So, it's exactly as I state - any company would be an utter fool to pass up that gift horse. It's only because people are bringing personal political views into business they get so wound up...
The only scenario once the Merc factory was up for free for production to remain in the UK would be if Honda had retooled Swindon then decided to back out, or if Nissan had completely rebuilt Sunderland then decided to shift all production to Barcelona.
Meanwhile, Aston is rebuilding it's post pandemic workforce, and enabling a level of jobs and investment an order of magnitude greater than the Grenadier would ever have provided - just as Sunderland is doing a stellar job making itself incredibly difficult for Nissan to ignore.
Again, this isn't a great argument. The British government gave Nissan ~100million quid to stay in Sunderland. Again, you're arguing that the commercial decision is made in isolation purely on the value of bricks and mortar. https://www.cityam.com/nissan-sunderland-batteries...For Ineos, that was fully paid for by someone else, then gifted to them.
So, it's exactly as I state - any company would be an utter fool to pass up that gift horse. It's only because people are bringing personal political views into business they get so wound up...
The only scenario once the Merc factory was up for free for production to remain in the UK would be if Honda had retooled Swindon then decided to back out, or if Nissan had completely rebuilt Sunderland then decided to shift all production to Barcelona.
Meanwhile, Aston is rebuilding it's post pandemic workforce, and enabling a level of jobs and investment an order of magnitude greater than the Grenadier would ever have provided - just as Sunderland is doing a stellar job making itself incredibly difficult for Nissan to ignore.
Ineos, as a 'British Brand' deliberately made that choice. Ratcliff himself had plenty of opportunity - and the ear of the government - to make the same financial appear to get free money for a factory here. They chose not to.
MC Bodge said:
shalmaneser said:
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
Paracetamol said:
. Exceptional strength of chassis and properly considered articulation etc. the package felt tight and well engineered in the way a Rolex Submariner does. The interior is great too.
f
king hell. Of course!Very relatable analogy there
redroadster said:
Putin has just ordered 25k of them for some reason.
Now this is the target market.Military, forestry commissions, rescue & emergency services, agriculture, industrial requirements.
This is no school run or football club car park trophy...this will be used by organisations that need the ruggedness for off-road deployments.
In 2008 the Australian Ministry of Defence signed a AU$350M contract to purchase 1,200 Merc G Wagen. At the time, around 60,000 G Wagen were deployed by defence forces around the world.
No doubt Ratcliffe has these organisations in sight...
Edited by FlukePlay on Wednesday 23 February 12:44
corcoran said:
Again, this isn't a great argument. The British government gave Nissan ~100million quid to stay in Sunderland. Again, you're arguing that the commercial decision is made in isolation purely on the value of bricks and mortar. https://www.cityam.com/nissan-sunderland-batteries...
Ineos, as a 'British Brand' deliberately made that choice. Ratcliff himself had plenty of opportunity - and the ear of the government - to make the same financial appear to get free money for a factory here. They chose not to.
No, I just don't have rose tinted goggles about the intrinsically higher value of the worker putting it together being based in the UK.Ineos, as a 'British Brand' deliberately made that choice. Ratcliff himself had plenty of opportunity - and the ear of the government - to make the same financial appear to get free money for a factory here. They chose not to.
Look at how many people Nissan employ or enable to be employed. Ineos have had grants and investment from the UK and Welsh governments - none of that came close to rivalling the cost and time savings of being given a fully finished plant.
Ineos were looking to employ 500 people in Bridgend - do you really think the government should be throwing tens of millions at creating that few jobs?
Ivan stewart said:
At least it keeps its wheels on the ground most of the time, unlike the new pretender .
oh.
As i repeatedly explained on many a previous Grenadier thread, you can't setup a passively sprung off roader to have decent articulation in 2022, even with those mythical beam axles because in 2022 people simply won't put up with a car that rolls around the road like a drunken sailor at just 25 mph. In fact, to even pass the necessary "moose" tests, your vehicle has to have significant cross axle stiffness to stop it falling over!
Landrover get around this issue by using active systems (air springs, electric ARB's etc) and Jeep use electronically disconnectable ARB's to get the similar effect. But a passive (ie wire sprung, fixed ARB) off roader cannot today have what i would call "high" cross axle capability.
Any dual purpose vehicle, ie a 4x4 is realstically not actually speding that much time doing extreme off road, in most of the world, dirt and gravel roads are the major use case, btu even in the farest flung hell-holes in the world, there is a lot of tarmac these days.
Back in the day, vehicles with genuinely long travel suspension had very soft springs and no ARBs at all, and they could indeed "keep their wheels on the floor" but unfortunately, that mean't they went round corners like this:
;-)
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 23 February 12:50
RacerMike said:
The Grenadier is as complex as a current Defender and has zero dealers capable of fault rectification currently.
INEOS say it has less than half of the processors used by the current Defender. The electric lockers are simple on/off, there are much less driver assistance aids, they have tried to confine the complex electronics to the engine, transmission and dash display. It is a modern vehicle, so large amounts of electronics are compulsory, but they have not added everything because it is available. I am assured they have thought long and hard about fault tracing and rectification in the field. Only time will tell; I do not have a problem with electronics, so long as it is not compromised by poor detail design and cost cutting.The electronic service manual is being developed for general release and to used by agri dealers/mechanics. My local dealer will be Chandlers Farm Equipment Ltd in Belton, who are very bullish about the whole thing. My local agricultural engineer is very keen to see the vehicle and the manual.
jeremy995 said:
A good few years ago I bought a Dualit toaster; a basic toaster is under £20, the Dualit was over £100, but the basic toasters last 18 months to two years and cannot be repaired at any price. The Dualit is still going 25 years later with one minor repair, at £17 and can still be repaired. Reduce, reuse, recycle suggests buying less, good quality stuff and keeping in for a long time. Hopefully the Grenadier will do that.
RacerMike said:
If only cars could be compare to Toasters...
So if you were to compare it to your two toasters. The only difference between your Dualit and the basic one would be what it looked like on the outside.
You know more about cars than toasters; :-) a cheap toaster may use a mechanical bimetallic latch or a small potted board with a chip, microswitch and a solenoid. These days, they cost about the same to make and do the same job. A Dualit Classic uses a clockwork timer to close or break a circuit. So if you were to compare it to your two toasters. The only difference between your Dualit and the basic one would be what it looked like on the outside.
jeremy996 said:
The electronic service manual is being developed for general release and to used by agri dealers/mechanics. My local dealer will be Chandlers Farm Equipment Ltd in Belton, who are very bullish about the whole thing. My local agricultural engineer is very keen to see the vehicle and the manual.
Er, i think it very doubtful that BMW have licenced Ineos to release their propriety data! The manual will have phrases like "replace engine" or "change transmission" and not detailed functional and diagnostics data!Does your local AgriEnd know what Flexray is? I suspect they are about to find out just how steep this learning curve actually is..... ;-)
FlukePlay said:
Now this is the target market.
Military, forestry commissions, rescue & emergency services, agriculture, industrial requirements.
Th
People like you who keep saying this are living on another planet. It is a complete fantasy, none of these organisations will touch it. It has absolutely zero hope of seeing service with any Military. G wagons that are used by Militaries are the W641 variant introduced in the 90s FFS. Military, forestry commissions, rescue & emergency services, agriculture, industrial requirements.
Th
Edited by FlukePlay on Wednesday 23 February 12:44
BMW engines in the INEOS have absolutely horrific reliability.
jeremy996 said:
a cheap toaster may use a mechanical bimetallic latch or a small potted board with a chip, microswitch and a solenoid. T
Worth noting that in the ultimate analysis, the electronic timer is much more reliable than the mechancial one when designed to the same integrity level because it has no moving parts.The reason cheap toasters are (sometimes) less reliable is the fact they are designed to lower standards and not because they are "electronic"........
Ivan stewart said:
At least it keeps its wheels on the ground most of the time, unlike the new pretender .
yeah! stupid 'ol JLR, building a great car people are buying in droves and has a huge waiting list for.... what were they thinking, eh? Why didn't they listen to the internet and make it be more s*t?!Max_Torque said:
oh.
As i repeatedly explained on many a previous Grenadier thread, you can't setup a passively sprung off roader to have decent articulation in 2022, even with those mythical beam axles because in 2022 people simply won't put up with a car that rolls around the road like a drunken sailor at just 25 mph. In fact, to even pass the necessary "moose" tests, your vehicle has to have significant cross axle stiffness to stop it falling over!
Landrover get around this issue by using active systems (air springs, electric ARB's etc) and Jeep use electronically disconnectable ARB's to get the similar effect. But a passive (ie wire sprung, fixed ARB) off roader cannot today have what i would call "high" cross axle capability.
Any dual purpose vehicle, ie a 4x4 is realstically not actually speding that much time doing extreme off road, in most of the world, dirt and gravel roads are the major use case, btu even in the farest flung hell-holes in the world, there is a lot of tarmac these days.
Back in the day, vehicles with genuinely long travel suspension had very soft springs and no ARBs at all, and they could indeed "keep their wheels on the floor" but unfortunately, that mean't they went round corners like this:
;-)
Edited by Max_Torque on Wednesday 23 February 12:50
Max_Torque said:
Worth noting that in the ultimate analysis, the electronic timer is much more reliable than the mechancial one when designed to the same integrity level because it has no moving parts.
The reason cheap toasters are (sometimes) less reliable is the fact they are designed to lower standards and not because they are "electronic"........
The timer or mechanical parts are not the usual failure, it's usually a break in the thermal elements. The reason cheap toasters are (sometimes) less reliable is the fact they are designed to lower standards and not because they are "electronic"........
It's like a FFRR failing because of a 10p hose clip or 35p electrical connector. For the user, the underlying cause of the failure is not the most important matter, it's just that it is not working!
Where a Dualit Classic scores is because it is easy to dismantle and you can buy the elements online to be delivered overnight. There's even a fault diagnosis schematic and instructions. It is hugely expensive to buy, but I am reminded of the "Vimes Boot Theory", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory
I don’t know if others on PH read/follow car mags and forums from other countries.
I’ve barely seen any media coverage outside of UK-centric press like PH.
Regardless of how good this may end up being, without any marketing it won’t sell. Is the UK alone a big enough market to sustain it?
It reminds me of the Iveco Massif, which despite also having military applications and having the whole iveco/Fiat network for distribution, ended up being a complete flop.
I’ve barely seen any media coverage outside of UK-centric press like PH.
Regardless of how good this may end up being, without any marketing it won’t sell. Is the UK alone a big enough market to sustain it?
It reminds me of the Iveco Massif, which despite also having military applications and having the whole iveco/Fiat network for distribution, ended up being a complete flop.
AngryPartsBloke said:
People like you who keep saying this are living on another planet. It is a complete fantasy, none of these organisations will touch it. It has absolutely zero hope of seeing service with any Military. G wagons that are used by Militaries are the W641 variant introduced in the 90s FFS.
BMW engines in the INEOS have absolutely horrific reliability.
The British Army might use it as "white fleet", but I cannot see it getting shot at; we have big heavy armoured stuff now!BMW engines in the INEOS have absolutely horrific reliability.
To get on white fleet, it will need to be cheap to lease; Ineos has the financial muscle to tip the scales, if they want to. Long term, it will ultimately depend on the lifetime cost of ownership.
As for the specific BMW engines being unreliable, that does not seem to be the warranty company experience, (unless someone is burying data). Toyota have put the petrol engine in the new Supra and you would imagine they would do their due diligence.
Well being British owned company it's sad it's not being built in Wales as Ineos originally planned and stated , with regarding magna Steyr being involved with the development work you would think they would build it being a contract car manufacturer , Magna Steyr could have at least built them to get them on the road and Ineos/smart plant take over when there upto speed , Front of the car I think is as much like a G-wagon as a defender also with magna Steyr involvement and them building the G-wagon and Ineos purchasing the plant of Daimler they would have gone down the Mercedes route with drive train and ancillarys , Good on you Jeremy996 putting your money were your mouth is,.By the way Jeremy great name Im 1.
Chris944_S2 said:
I don’t know if others on PH read/follow car mags and forums from other countries.
I’ve barely seen any media coverage outside of UK-centric press like PH.
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There is YouTube stuff from the USA, Germany, Russia, South Africa, Dubai, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Hungary and Croatia.I’ve barely seen any media coverage outside of UK-centric press like PH.
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INEOS issue their press packs in 14 regionalised versions.
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