RE: Official: 2022 INEOS Grenadier priced from £49k
Discussion
Macboy said:
it was literally what Ratcliff said at the start of the project. No-nonsense, rugged, affordable off-roader for those with no replacement for their current vehicle (ie an old Defender) with a target price of £30k. Thee's a video knocking about of him saying it and early interviews with him and management repeat this. It's not made-up, it was the original - now long forgotten - mission.
March 2019 - "pricing expected to come in around the high £30,000s to low £40,000s to start"That video also has the original promo statements about it being able to tow a plough and clear minefields.
August 2019 - "Prices are set to stick closely to those of the original Defender, which was priced from £25,000."
That Autocar article also has this (with hindsight) gem: "We think this is a project for the UK that would be hugely beneficial post-Brexit, because we would be exporting 70-80% of the cars we would make."
fblm said:
WTF seriously that looks absolutely terrible. Who do they imagine the market is?
Vanity project that should have been shelved after the first boozy lunch but because he’s probably the type that never gets NO said to him has now made it to market or no market as the case may be.We've got one reserved, and have been thinking carefully since last night when the spec sheet landed in the email inbox (late) whether to proceed any further with the idea.
From the start, I loved the concept. I think the drivetrain will be superb, ours will mainly see road use, but also for travelling on to construction sites, in to the odd quarry and across farms etc, it will also spend a fair time with a 3 ton trailer behind it. I am a big fan of the L322 Range Rover; imho there isn't a better vehicle for this use case, except the RR never works properly and mine was replaced with an A6 Allroad. An L405 Range couldn't fill the boots of the 322 as a workhorse, hence why Harry Metcalfe doesn't use one on his farm, a Land Cruiser is just a bit dull and a no one ever looked right driving a Ford Ranger while wearing a Schoffel.
I am reminded of the interior from a Discovery 3 by the Grenadier, which I really like. The exterior, I see more G Wagen than Defender in it, which isn't a surprise considering the Magna Steyr involvement. On that front, the components used to build the Grenadier all seem top notch, and won't come cheap. I am not shocked by the £52k price for the 5 seat variant, my spec would come to £58,450 if we proceed to order though which I am a bit miffed by. Why are they charging £505 for non-metallic green paint, £570 for a fixed tow bar that every prototype has been shown with and £305 for heated seats? I get charge for the ponsey 'lifestyle' options but ffs make the basic package an 'all you need' prospect!
Fuel consumption has featured heavily as a topic of conversation on this thread. A V6 Discovery 5 will average 26mpg, my old L322 did 22mpg, a G350d will do mid 20s. If you want a 4x4 with efficiency, buy a Bentayga V8 Diesel. That thing will do a real world 42mpg on a motorway run! Not helpful consumer advice, I realise, but pertinent for the sake of comparison. I really don't see a real world 26mpg mixed as bad for a car of this weight, which is probably going to be very low geared and never going to be doing 30k motorway miles a year. What does niggle me is the CO2 figure, and the effect that will have on the vehicle probably being emitted from LEZ compliance before it reaches dotage. That is also my only resale value worry too.
A new Defender 110 Station Wagon (5 Seat) can be ordered for £56k base price, £68k by the time I've finished with the configurator, but you won't see it until March 2024 at the current rate. The cheapest L663 110 on Auto Trader is £58k in spite of having 2 years and 23k miles under its belt. A new Range Rover just sold on Collecting Cars for £40k over list price and everyone's heard some 'Dave' in the pub shouting about how he's sold 't missus car to We Buy Any Car for more than they paid two years ago. If you think £52k for this is expensive, I was in the Audi dealership a few weeks ago and nearly spat my complimentary coffee all over showroom when I saw the £75k price tag in the window of an RS3.
CARS ARE JUST EXPENSIVE, get over it.
From the start, I loved the concept. I think the drivetrain will be superb, ours will mainly see road use, but also for travelling on to construction sites, in to the odd quarry and across farms etc, it will also spend a fair time with a 3 ton trailer behind it. I am a big fan of the L322 Range Rover; imho there isn't a better vehicle for this use case, except the RR never works properly and mine was replaced with an A6 Allroad. An L405 Range couldn't fill the boots of the 322 as a workhorse, hence why Harry Metcalfe doesn't use one on his farm, a Land Cruiser is just a bit dull and a no one ever looked right driving a Ford Ranger while wearing a Schoffel.
I am reminded of the interior from a Discovery 3 by the Grenadier, which I really like. The exterior, I see more G Wagen than Defender in it, which isn't a surprise considering the Magna Steyr involvement. On that front, the components used to build the Grenadier all seem top notch, and won't come cheap. I am not shocked by the £52k price for the 5 seat variant, my spec would come to £58,450 if we proceed to order though which I am a bit miffed by. Why are they charging £505 for non-metallic green paint, £570 for a fixed tow bar that every prototype has been shown with and £305 for heated seats? I get charge for the ponsey 'lifestyle' options but ffs make the basic package an 'all you need' prospect!
Fuel consumption has featured heavily as a topic of conversation on this thread. A V6 Discovery 5 will average 26mpg, my old L322 did 22mpg, a G350d will do mid 20s. If you want a 4x4 with efficiency, buy a Bentayga V8 Diesel. That thing will do a real world 42mpg on a motorway run! Not helpful consumer advice, I realise, but pertinent for the sake of comparison. I really don't see a real world 26mpg mixed as bad for a car of this weight, which is probably going to be very low geared and never going to be doing 30k motorway miles a year. What does niggle me is the CO2 figure, and the effect that will have on the vehicle probably being emitted from LEZ compliance before it reaches dotage. That is also my only resale value worry too.
A new Defender 110 Station Wagon (5 Seat) can be ordered for £56k base price, £68k by the time I've finished with the configurator, but you won't see it until March 2024 at the current rate. The cheapest L663 110 on Auto Trader is £58k in spite of having 2 years and 23k miles under its belt. A new Range Rover just sold on Collecting Cars for £40k over list price and everyone's heard some 'Dave' in the pub shouting about how he's sold 't missus car to We Buy Any Car for more than they paid two years ago. If you think £52k for this is expensive, I was in the Audi dealership a few weeks ago and nearly spat my complimentary coffee all over showroom when I saw the £75k price tag in the window of an RS3.
CARS ARE JUST EXPENSIVE, get over it.
JOB2.5-16 said:
We've got one reserved, and have been thinking carefully since last night when the spec sheet landed in the email inbox (late) whether to proceed any further with the idea.
From the start, I loved the concept. I think the drivetrain will be superb, ours will mainly see road use, but also for travelling on to construction sites, in to the odd quarry and across farms etc, it will also spend a fair time with a 3 ton trailer behind it. I am a big fan of the L322 Range Rover; imho there isn't a better vehicle for this use case, except the RR never works properly and mine was replaced with an A6 Allroad. An L405 Range couldn't fill the boots of the 322 as a workhorse, hence why Harry Metcalfe doesn't use one on his farm, a Land Cruiser is just a bit dull and a no one ever looked right driving a Ford Ranger while wearing a Schoffel.
I am reminded of the interior from a Discovery 3 by the Grenadier, which I really like. The exterior, I see more G Wagen than Defender in it, which isn't a surprise considering the Magna Steyr involvement. On that front, the components used to build the Grenadier all seem top notch, and won't come cheap. I am not shocked by the £52k price for the 5 seat variant, my spec would come to £58,450 if we proceed to order though which I am a bit miffed by. Why are they charging £505 for non-metallic green paint, £570 for a fixed tow bar that every prototype has been shown with and £305 for heated seats? I get charge for the ponsey 'lifestyle' options but ffs make the basic package an 'all you need' prospect!
Fuel consumption has featured heavily as a topic of conversation on this thread. A V6 Discovery 5 will average 26mpg, my old L322 did 22mpg, a G350d will do mid 20s. If you want a 4x4 with efficiency, buy a Bentayga V8 Diesel. That thing will do a real world 42mpg on a motorway run! Not helpful consumer advice, I realise, but pertinent for the sake of comparison. I really don't see a real world 26mpg mixed as bad for a car of this weight, which is probably going to be very low geared and never going to be doing 30k motorway miles a year. What does niggle me is the CO2 figure, and the effect that will have on the vehicle probably being emitted from LEZ compliance before it reaches dotage. That is also my only resale value worry too.
A new Defender 110 Station Wagon (5 Seat) can be ordered for £56k base price, £68k by the time I've finished with the configurator, but you won't see it until March 2024 at the current rate. The cheapest L663 110 on Auto Trader is £58k in spite of having 2 years and 23k miles under its belt. A new Range Rover just sold on Collecting Cars for £40k over list price and everyone's heard some 'Dave' in the pub shouting about how he's sold 't missus car to We Buy Any Car for more than they paid two years ago. If you think £52k for this is expensive, I was in the Audi dealership a few weeks ago and nearly spat my complimentary coffee all over showroom when I saw the £75k price tag in the window of an RS3.
CARS ARE JUST EXPENSIVE, get over it.
So why worry over a few hundred quid for a tow bar and heated seats?From the start, I loved the concept. I think the drivetrain will be superb, ours will mainly see road use, but also for travelling on to construction sites, in to the odd quarry and across farms etc, it will also spend a fair time with a 3 ton trailer behind it. I am a big fan of the L322 Range Rover; imho there isn't a better vehicle for this use case, except the RR never works properly and mine was replaced with an A6 Allroad. An L405 Range couldn't fill the boots of the 322 as a workhorse, hence why Harry Metcalfe doesn't use one on his farm, a Land Cruiser is just a bit dull and a no one ever looked right driving a Ford Ranger while wearing a Schoffel.
I am reminded of the interior from a Discovery 3 by the Grenadier, which I really like. The exterior, I see more G Wagen than Defender in it, which isn't a surprise considering the Magna Steyr involvement. On that front, the components used to build the Grenadier all seem top notch, and won't come cheap. I am not shocked by the £52k price for the 5 seat variant, my spec would come to £58,450 if we proceed to order though which I am a bit miffed by. Why are they charging £505 for non-metallic green paint, £570 for a fixed tow bar that every prototype has been shown with and £305 for heated seats? I get charge for the ponsey 'lifestyle' options but ffs make the basic package an 'all you need' prospect!
Fuel consumption has featured heavily as a topic of conversation on this thread. A V6 Discovery 5 will average 26mpg, my old L322 did 22mpg, a G350d will do mid 20s. If you want a 4x4 with efficiency, buy a Bentayga V8 Diesel. That thing will do a real world 42mpg on a motorway run! Not helpful consumer advice, I realise, but pertinent for the sake of comparison. I really don't see a real world 26mpg mixed as bad for a car of this weight, which is probably going to be very low geared and never going to be doing 30k motorway miles a year. What does niggle me is the CO2 figure, and the effect that will have on the vehicle probably being emitted from LEZ compliance before it reaches dotage. That is also my only resale value worry too.
A new Defender 110 Station Wagon (5 Seat) can be ordered for £56k base price, £68k by the time I've finished with the configurator, but you won't see it until March 2024 at the current rate. The cheapest L663 110 on Auto Trader is £58k in spite of having 2 years and 23k miles under its belt. A new Range Rover just sold on Collecting Cars for £40k over list price and everyone's heard some 'Dave' in the pub shouting about how he's sold 't missus car to We Buy Any Car for more than they paid two years ago. If you think £52k for this is expensive, I was in the Audi dealership a few weeks ago and nearly spat my complimentary coffee all over showroom when I saw the £75k price tag in the window of an RS3.
CARS ARE JUST EXPENSIVE, get over it.
300bhp/ton said:
thewarlock said:
Aren't you passing on the Ineos too though?
Why are you so keen to defend a car that you're not going to buy?
Only passing on one new as I can't afford one. Doesn't mean I don't like it in general though. And would be interested should I have the money or as a used purchase. In the same way I'd be interested in buying a Bronco, Wrangler, Ranger Raptor or even a new Defender.Why are you so keen to defend a car that you're not going to buy?
Let's face it Caterham build antique designed cars, some of which cost as much or more than the Grenadier. Yet few bash them on here.... despite the fact you get way less product for your money. (I like Caterham too, just using it as an example)
So, I really don't get all the handbag bashing by quite a lot of people on here. It's like continual PMT. When people say unfair or stupid things, I've generally tried to point out that they are either being naive or more often than not, factually wrong.
At the end of the day, I thought this forum was car enthusiasts. But it seems a large population of PH these days are only enthusiastic about trying very hard at being a senile version of Victor Meldrew.
Tomanybikes said:
fblm said:
WTF seriously that looks absolutely terrible. Who do they imagine the market is?
Vanity project that should have been shelved after the first boozy lunch but because he’s probably the type that never gets NO said to him has now made it to market or no market as the case may be.FWIW, after years of Defenders, both 90's and 110's, running at least one since '98, the Twisted is a revelation.
JOB2.5-16 said:
We've got one reserved, and have been thinking carefully since last night when the spec sheet landed in the email inbox (late) whether to proceed any further with the idea.
From the start, I loved the concept. I think the drivetrain will be superb, ours will mainly see road use, but also for travelling on to construction sites, in to the odd quarry and across farms etc, it will also spend a fair time with a 3 ton trailer behind it. I am a big fan of the L322 Range Rover; imho there isn't a better vehicle for this use case, except the RR never works properly and mine was replaced with an A6 Allroad. An L405 Range couldn't fill the boots of the 322 as a workhorse, hence why Harry Metcalfe doesn't use one on his farm, a Land Cruiser is just a bit dull and a no one ever looked right driving a Ford Ranger while wearing a Schoffel.
I am reminded of the interior from a Discovery 3 by the Grenadier, which I really like. The exterior, I see more G Wagen than Defender in it, which isn't a surprise considering the Magna Steyr involvement. On that front, the components used to build the Grenadier all seem top notch, and won't come cheap. I am not shocked by the £52k price for the 5 seat variant, my spec would come to £58,450 if we proceed to order though which I am a bit miffed by. Why are they charging £505 for non-metallic green paint, £570 for a fixed tow bar that every prototype has been shown with and £305 for heated seats? I get charge for the ponsey 'lifestyle' options but ffs make the basic package an 'all you need' prospect!
Fuel consumption has featured heavily as a topic of conversation on this thread. A V6 Discovery 5 will average 26mpg, my old L322 did 22mpg, a G350d will do mid 20s. If you want a 4x4 with efficiency, buy a Bentayga V8 Diesel. That thing will do a real world 42mpg on a motorway run! Not helpful consumer advice, I realise, but pertinent for the sake of comparison. I really don't see a real world 26mpg mixed as bad for a car of this weight, which is probably going to be very low geared and never going to be doing 30k motorway miles a year. What does niggle me is the CO2 figure, and the effect that will have on the vehicle probably being emitted from LEZ compliance before it reaches dotage. That is also my only resale value worry too.
A new Defender 110 Station Wagon (5 Seat) can be ordered for £56k base price, £68k by the time I've finished with the configurator, but you won't see it until March 2024 at the current rate. The cheapest L663 110 on Auto Trader is £58k in spite of having 2 years and 23k miles under its belt. A new Range Rover just sold on Collecting Cars for £40k over list price and everyone's heard some 'Dave' in the pub shouting about how he's sold 't missus car to We Buy Any Car for more than they paid two years ago. If you think £52k for this is expensive, I was in the Audi dealership a few weeks ago and nearly spat my complimentary coffee all over showroom when I saw the £75k price tag in the window of an RS3.
CARS ARE JUST EXPENSIVE, get over it.
actually i'll revise my view of "i don't see where the sales are coming from" to "i can see why people in the market for this sort of vehicle might go for one if the alternative is an 18 month wait for a Defender". From the start, I loved the concept. I think the drivetrain will be superb, ours will mainly see road use, but also for travelling on to construction sites, in to the odd quarry and across farms etc, it will also spend a fair time with a 3 ton trailer behind it. I am a big fan of the L322 Range Rover; imho there isn't a better vehicle for this use case, except the RR never works properly and mine was replaced with an A6 Allroad. An L405 Range couldn't fill the boots of the 322 as a workhorse, hence why Harry Metcalfe doesn't use one on his farm, a Land Cruiser is just a bit dull and a no one ever looked right driving a Ford Ranger while wearing a Schoffel.
I am reminded of the interior from a Discovery 3 by the Grenadier, which I really like. The exterior, I see more G Wagen than Defender in it, which isn't a surprise considering the Magna Steyr involvement. On that front, the components used to build the Grenadier all seem top notch, and won't come cheap. I am not shocked by the £52k price for the 5 seat variant, my spec would come to £58,450 if we proceed to order though which I am a bit miffed by. Why are they charging £505 for non-metallic green paint, £570 for a fixed tow bar that every prototype has been shown with and £305 for heated seats? I get charge for the ponsey 'lifestyle' options but ffs make the basic package an 'all you need' prospect!
Fuel consumption has featured heavily as a topic of conversation on this thread. A V6 Discovery 5 will average 26mpg, my old L322 did 22mpg, a G350d will do mid 20s. If you want a 4x4 with efficiency, buy a Bentayga V8 Diesel. That thing will do a real world 42mpg on a motorway run! Not helpful consumer advice, I realise, but pertinent for the sake of comparison. I really don't see a real world 26mpg mixed as bad for a car of this weight, which is probably going to be very low geared and never going to be doing 30k motorway miles a year. What does niggle me is the CO2 figure, and the effect that will have on the vehicle probably being emitted from LEZ compliance before it reaches dotage. That is also my only resale value worry too.
A new Defender 110 Station Wagon (5 Seat) can be ordered for £56k base price, £68k by the time I've finished with the configurator, but you won't see it until March 2024 at the current rate. The cheapest L663 110 on Auto Trader is £58k in spite of having 2 years and 23k miles under its belt. A new Range Rover just sold on Collecting Cars for £40k over list price and everyone's heard some 'Dave' in the pub shouting about how he's sold 't missus car to We Buy Any Car for more than they paid two years ago. If you think £52k for this is expensive, I was in the Audi dealership a few weeks ago and nearly spat my complimentary coffee all over showroom when I saw the £75k price tag in the window of an RS3.
CARS ARE JUST EXPENSIVE, get over it.
You can't buy one new, if you buy nearly new or even "quite well used", you're looking at silly money. At our local dealer there is a 12k mile First Edition D250 for £73k!! On that basis, for a 3 year punt i can see a few hundred sales that way definitely.
I ordered a Defender in what was this i'm told a magical ~3 week window last summer when you could order one, and it showed up, on time, after about 10 weeks . Minor miracle - not easy to repeat now.
if lead times are the same- they are similar money, and surely nobody can naive enough to think a ground up build will be any more reliable... you'd just get a Defender, surely!?
Macboy said:
300bhp/ton said:
A.J.M said:
£49k for that… 
So much for it being a £30k 300tdi 110 replacement like the new defender haters were dreaming of.
Isn't it only the Ineos haters and Pretender fanboys touting this. Nobody actually interested in the Grenadier has ever mentioned anything along those lines. So much for it being a £30k 300tdi 110 replacement like the new defender haters were dreaming of.
Also willing to bet it wasn't' £30k. You can't even buy a good spec Ranger for that these days. Not too mention the 'vision' would have been a good number of years ago and the world and prices have moved on. Pretty much all cars are more money than they were previously.
300bhp/ton said:
So not a £30k Tdi then....
Also willing to bet it wasn't' £30k. You can't even buy a good spec Ranger for that these days. Not too mention the 'vision' would have been a good number of years ago and the world and prices have moved on. Pretty much all cars are more money than they were previously.
The £60k figure dropped out of a loose mouth involved in the project a very long time ago. The achievement is that several years later they've stubbornly stuck to it.Also willing to bet it wasn't' £30k. You can't even buy a good spec Ranger for that these days. Not too mention the 'vision' would have been a good number of years ago and the world and prices have moved on. Pretty much all cars are more money than they were previously.
Digga said:
Tomanybikes said:
fblm said:
WTF seriously that looks absolutely terrible. Who do they imagine the market is?
Vanity project that should have been shelved after the first boozy lunch but because he’s probably the type that never gets NO said to him has now made it to market or no market as the case may be.FWIW, after years of Defenders, both 90's and 110's, running at least one since '98, the Twisted is a revelation.
Tomanybikes said:
Digga said:
Tomanybikes said:
fblm said:
WTF seriously that looks absolutely terrible. Who do they imagine the market is?
Vanity project that should have been shelved after the first boozy lunch but because he’s probably the type that never gets NO said to him has now made it to market or no market as the case may be.FWIW, after years of Defenders, both 90's and 110's, running at least one since '98, the Twisted is a revelation.
Rather different to scaling an operation to build and keep running 25k cars of a brand new design.
So the market is there, but cannot see how that particular market covers all those costs.....
Does anyone think that somehow Ineos won't suffer the same production halting component shortages as everyone else and somehow, despite using all the same parts as everyone else, be able to deliver cars immediately?
In fact, it's likely to be worse for them because they are a small, unknown outfit in terms of sales volumes and history. If you make widgets for cars, and the COE of VAG rings up and says "I want some parts" you listen, if the CEO of Ineos rings up you're more likely to say "er, who are you"??
it's also worth noting that comparing the fuel economy of this vehicle, comming on sale in perhaps late 2022 or 2023 with 4x4 mentioned from nearly 15 years ago is ridiculous. You have to compare the consumption with similar cars on sale new today. Like for example the new Defender or commerical pickups etc
And finally, the poster saying "i don't care about fuel economy but i care about Co2" sorry, they are the same thing! The Co2 emitted when burning a mass of fuel is fixed by the chemistry. For diesel, every litre of fuel you burn, using oxygen from the air, will release around 2.62kg of Co2. You can't change that. So if a car has a large fuel consumption, then it also has a large Co2 emission.
Given that BEVs are currently taking over the world, then any vehicle with Co2 emissons as high as this one will have a hard time of things in any market, especially 1st world rich ones ie the sort of markets where people can stump up something like £55k for such a vehicle......
In fact, it's likely to be worse for them because they are a small, unknown outfit in terms of sales volumes and history. If you make widgets for cars, and the COE of VAG rings up and says "I want some parts" you listen, if the CEO of Ineos rings up you're more likely to say "er, who are you"??
it's also worth noting that comparing the fuel economy of this vehicle, comming on sale in perhaps late 2022 or 2023 with 4x4 mentioned from nearly 15 years ago is ridiculous. You have to compare the consumption with similar cars on sale new today. Like for example the new Defender or commerical pickups etc
And finally, the poster saying "i don't care about fuel economy but i care about Co2" sorry, they are the same thing! The Co2 emitted when burning a mass of fuel is fixed by the chemistry. For diesel, every litre of fuel you burn, using oxygen from the air, will release around 2.62kg of Co2. You can't change that. So if a car has a large fuel consumption, then it also has a large Co2 emission.
Given that BEVs are currently taking over the world, then any vehicle with Co2 emissons as high as this one will have a hard time of things in any market, especially 1st world rich ones ie the sort of markets where people can stump up something like £55k for such a vehicle......
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 29th April 17:01
Haven't low volume manufacturers found it easier as they aren't trying to negotiate supplies in the millions and their end products don't tend to need to be hugely price competitive like the mass producers? And if they have any sense they'd have been accumulating inventory well in advance?
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