Ineos Grenadier customer cars arrive at dealers

[jeremy996]

fourstardan said:

Not sure how Ratcliffe's after service model will work?

The model is not the same worldwide. In the UK, agents have been appointed, with my local one being Chandlers of Belton, a tractor dealer. I have no concerns over their servicing.

Hedin, in Switzerland is a dealer; they got their vehicles early as there is a Swiss local taxation issue the dealer has to solve. (The pictures and video on page 1 of the thread).

In the USA they will be stuck with a dealer model as Ineos Automotive don't want to do a Tesla.

[jhonn]

dhutch said:

jhonn said:

Also, as a soon-to-be owner, we felt it odd that he hadn't been made aware of the big launch/media event currently happening up this neck of the woods.

I guess he is, in some minds, about the only person they dont need there. He is already coverted!

Plus as said, if its mainly a press briefing event then again, customers wont be the target.

Yes, you're probably right - I wasn't aware it was primarily a press event until after I posted.

[garypotter]

Have they used an off the shelf grill from Jeep? prety ugly imho

[Shinyfings]

I won’t be buying one but quite like them (mind you I’d have big doubts about reliability if I were buying one). However, is it only me that thinks they look like the result of a Defender and G Wagon having a quickie.

[Filibuster]

I'm one of those Land Rover / Range Rover fans who really likes their abilities, but in reality only ever drives them in an urban context
So I'm not really the main target for this. I applaud them for making this and they surely are fabulous, well engineered cars!

[jeremy996]

Shinyfings said:

I won’t be buying one but quite like them (mind you I’d have big doubts about reliability if I were buying one). However, is it only me that thinks they look like the result of a Defender and G Wagon having a quickie.

I think it was more of an orgy with the Defender, G-Wagen, Trooper and Land Cruiser, as the split rear doors are not Def or G things.

[Shinyfings]

Just spotted the half and half flag on the grille. Quick, post it on The Daily Mail site and wait for a melt down.

[2xChevrons]

Filibuster said:

I'm one of those Land Rover / Range Rover fans who really likes their abilities, but in reality only ever drives them in an urban context
So I'm not really the main target for this. I applaud them for making this and they surely are fabulous, well engineered cars!

I think you pretty much are, if not the target market, than the actual market. My thoughts re: the Grenadier remain unchanged - it's the Breitling aeronautical chronometer or Doxa diving watch but for 4x4s - a capable and generally well-engineered product that most of its buyers want rather than need, and is more about character, aspiration, difference and wish fulfilment than utility.

I've seen a couple in the flesh now and I agree with the compliments about how structurally and mechanically rugged they seem. The running gear is all from top-notch OEMs and makes the Ur-Defender look like, well, a post-war austerity design using left-over bits of 1930s Rover saloons. The first one I saw had some iffy finish/attention to detail areas on the underside and on some exterior points, but the second seemed to be very solidly and consistently made, though I didn't get the chance to do a thorough inspection.

I remain unconvinced that there's actually a big global demand for a medium-duty utility 4x4 off-road Station Wagon with the engine and drivetrain from a BMW that costs £48,000 and upwards on a commercial basis. I think this will, in spirit, be more of a Range Rover Classic successor; something designed with a fairly utilitarian purpose but adopted more as a lifestyle/image-projection choice. There will be a few well-heeled owners who genuinely make their Grenadiers flex their abilities, and there will even fewer who properly put them to the test. There will be some high-profile publicity stunts and expeditions to prove that it has what it takes, but only to bolster its credibility so the majority of buyers can park their Grenadier outside their Home Counties barn conversion and tell the guys down the sailing club that "I just couldn't get on with one of those new Defenders...they're so inauthentic, y'know?"

Subjectively, I think the interior design and layout is atrocious. I think the combination of modern BMW drivetrain and live axles is odd (but understandable from a commercial/support perspective). I quite liked the exterior looks the first time they were revealed, and it's grown on me ever since.

It is basically an original Defender with the perpetual list of peeves, flaws, failings and shortcomings fixed without turning it into a completely different sort of vehicle. On that basis, job well done. But because of that it will also have pretty much the same market as the Defender had in its twilight years - a small but devoted niche.

[Red9zero]

300bhp/ton said:

News flash, you can't buy an old Defender new.

Frankly your argument could apply to any car, so why don't all car makers toss in the towel if it is pointless making new cars. Everyone should just buy used ones

As a huge Land Rover lover, the Grenadier is way better spec and way more capable than the old 110.

Twisted will sell you a new "old" Defender. probably buy a couple of Grenadiers for the same price though.

[jeremy996]

There are a lot of comments about how many Grenadiers will be sold in the UK.

Ineos are only wanting to sell about 6000 in total per year in the UK, split 1700 M1 (Belstaff variants) and 4300 N1 (Commercial variants), so they stay under the Small Producer rules for CO2 emissions.

In Europe, most are going to Germany. There are 'significant' orders from Australia and South Africa.

[Bill]

jeremy996 said:

I'm buying a commercial station wagon, so class N1, with a reduced rear passenger space to favour the load bay. In the UK, that means less vehicle excise duty from the start and reduced, "commercial" speed limits. The Grenadier is too heavy to be classed as a dual-purpose vehicle, unlike the old Defender.

HMRC are being a bit coy about whether you can recover the VAT, stating it depends on circumstances, but the expectation is the N1s can recover the VAT, the Belstaff special editions cannot. I am not VAT registered, so not an issue for me. I did not want some of the bells and whistles on the Belstaff Editions, wanted to reduce the entry price and wanted the RFL reductions. My vehicle will be £60,821 delivered, (at the old price) and nearly £67k after the price rises.

Ok, thanks. I thought it was all or nothing on the commercial vehicle tax breaks.

[EggsBenedict]

Sat through a bit of the video attached in the OP.

Looks good to me - I like it! Perhaps a bit tacticool, but nevertheless, I'd like one.

The massive bumper has a winch in it, so that explains the size. The narrator says they expect a huge aftermarket. I guess someone will come up with a neater bumper perhaps, if you don't tick the winch option.

[white_goodman]

300bhp/ton said:

ZedLeg said:

Yes, thank you. I'm aware they don't make new Defenders anymore but the whole point of them is that you can pick up a 25 year old one and it would be much the same as a new one.

Well no, as just established you can't get new ones, so it wouldn't be. Unless you mean the new Defender, but that isn't remotely similar.

If you mean a Tdi/Td5 vs the last of the line Puma's. Then still a no really. Lots of changes happened over the years.

SmithCorona said:

You're clearly passionate about the Grenadier, I'm just not sure that the demand for a £70k SUV with solid axles is there.

Sorry, but where have you been living? No meaning it in a nasty way, but there are simply loads of live axle vehicles available, many vastly more expensive.

Newsflash, the world is bigger than the UK market and where you live.

Have you never heard of a Land Cruiser 70 Series?

How about a Jeep Wrangler? The top model of these is £100k!!!

Ford Bronco maybe?

G-Wagen?

Come on man, you must have heard of an F150 or a Dodge Ram?

Or is it still a no?

Maybe you'd like to use Google and check some prices out.

Honestly, there are loads of proper live axle off road worth vehicles on sale covering prices from £20k through to £140k+


You also seem to be a little off on the price of the Ineos, by £15,000 on the starting price.



Now it is a lot of money (too much for my bank account sadly ), but its right on the ballpark of anything comparable.

SmithCorona said:

I'd agree that the Grenadier is better specced, not sure about more capable and I'll be curious to see how reliability is once they start getting used.

Reliability, yes always something to consider to a greater or lesser degree. But in reality it is the same for every make/model, the Grenadier isn't anything different here. And lets face it, Land Rover and Jeep products are vastly popular (the latter in the USA and non EU markets). Yet the usually rank low in things like the JD Power surveys. Doesn't seem to stop people buying the products though.



The only thing I would say, the Grenadier does appear is massively over engineered. They have also had a very extensive and publicised development period being very open with what they have done/doing. Unless they are very unlucky I'd suspect reliability will be very good.

Apologies for the pedantry but hasn't the Dodge Ram been on independent coil springs for about 10+ years now? Chevy Silverado/GMC Sierra possibly still on live axles.

I wonder how much of a commercial market there might be for this vehicle? Military, fire and Police forces in remote areas, utility companies etc ie the kinds of companies that used to buy old Defenders.

[P1H]

When comparing the base pricing with other vehicles, I think it’s relevant to consider the engine being provided, both the B57 diesel and B58 petrol are (as far as I know) still the class leaders.

If we compare this with the Defender lineup you need to get a long way up the range to find something comparable. The 2 litre diesels are atrocious (whether 200 or 250 form), I’ve had these in a Velar and a Evoque. The 3 litre V6 diesel is a strong engine, but quite dated and well down on power / efficiency, I’ve had this in a XFS and Range Rover Sport.

[braddo]

white_goodman said:

I wonder how much of a commercial market there might be for this vehicle? Military, fire and Police forces in remote areas, utility companies etc ie the kinds of companies that used to buy old Defenders.

None of those have purchased Defenders for decades. They wouldn't touch this when you can have Japanese pickups for less than half price with proven reliability, a dealer network, better fuel economy and a lot less weight.

Maybe there are still some African dictatorships that Jim can sell a few khaki examples to. Some generals might like swanning about in them if they can't afford a G-Wagon. The grunts sure as hell won't be allowed to drive them!

[DonkeyApple]

Might see them starting to replace aging Defenders among things like mountain rescue/rnli etc. Not exactly mega orders but various European entities have clung on to old Defenders as there has been no direct replacement.

[LP670]

These should have had a tough japanese engine in them like a toyota 1UZ or 1GR, would have fitted much better with the rugged philosophy.

[DonkeyApple]

LP670 said:

These should have had a tough japanese engine in them like a toyota 1UZ or 1GR, would have fitted much better with the rugged philosophy.

I remember having a conversation several years ago with someone at the top of the project at the time and when the PR was talking about a sub £40k car for the common man they were talking about it being over £60k and needing an engine brand that consumers in that segment would tollerate. I suspect BMW was settled on from the possibilities as they didn't have their own product to compete and were keen to expand partner sales to help amortise development costs. I think the other advantage is that aren't the diesel and the petrol I6 units interchangeable on the production line meaning good cost savings?

[mikeswagon]

300bhp/ton said:

I believe the cars are being held until around the 28th Feb for collection, although customers have been allowed to view their cars. Which are now arriving at Swiss dealers.

There is also a big media event happening in N Scotland, but restrictions apply until the 8th Feb, so unlikely to see anything published before then.



Simply loving that blue colour

Walk around of a customer vehicle at a dealership.




______________________


I guess of note, there were some very vocal PH users that seem to have nothing but hatred and contempt for this vehicle, swearing blind it would never see the light of day and that they were infallibly correct on this (you know who you are, or I could link thread/post user names )

I wonder, are any of you prepared to eat humble pie and say you were wrong?

I would probably be among the users you refer to as I doubted them even getting it to market, so can I have custard with my humble pie? Fair play to them,

I'm not in the market, but I'd still rather have a new LR, and get to know my local techs on a first name basis .

[DonkeyApple]

mikeswagon said:

I'm not in the market, but I'd still rather have a new LR, and get to know my local techs on a first name basis .

At least when you drive a new Defender down the road the chances are that the bloke on the pavement who shouts 'C U Next Tuesday!' Is in fact your local mechanic and he genuinely means he'll see you next Tuesday.