how much hp is to much in a westfield
Discussion
jeffw said:
Looks nice 
Although if it is just TBs and and ECU it will not be making 190BHP (you would need cams to get up there). Also Toyo specifically advise against using R888 in low temps so be careful.
Thanks for the heads up on the 888's Jeff. Although if it is just TBs and and ECU it will not be making 190BHP (you would need cams to get up there). Also Toyo specifically advise against using R888 in low temps so be careful.Your correct the engine did need some assistance to break the 190 barrier.
Piper 285 Cams.
Vernier Cam Pulleys.
Dunnell port matched inlet manifold.
Ports have been ported and polished and manifolds where matched to the head.
45mm Jenvey throttle bodies.
ITG ram pipes.
ARP Bigend Bolts.
Lightened Flywheel.
Omex 600 Managment and setup by Troy at Northampton Motorsport.
Nathan
Nice spec. I see a lot of people claiming big numbers of Zetecs with only TBs so hence the comment. I have something similar except with a phase 3 head (large valves & lifters, port and polished) which makes 208BHP (175 at the wheels) which is being Supercharged at the moment and should show 320 afterwards.
At 1bar it might get upto 350BHP but I'm aiming for 300ish.Mark's old car. Very nice.
Coming back to the OP's question, my view having owned various westfields is the following based on typical weights for an aeroscreened car of around 550 - 600kgs.
Less than 150 bhp and you will soon get bored.
150 to 200 - an enjoyable car and the sweet spot for value for many - still not especially fast
200 - 250 - starts to feel fun
above 250 - 350 gear shift speed starts to be the limiting factor (unless you are looking at 90mph + acceleration which isn't really the point of these cars) so need to consider a sequential box
above 350 starting to getting into bragging rights and quickly traction limited on all but the perfect driving conditions.
So in summary I would say around 350 is about the sensible limit.
My brother has 360 in his supercharged duratec westy and I would say that is perfect.
Coming back to the OP's question, my view having owned various westfields is the following based on typical weights for an aeroscreened car of around 550 - 600kgs.
Less than 150 bhp and you will soon get bored.
150 to 200 - an enjoyable car and the sweet spot for value for many - still not especially fast
200 - 250 - starts to feel fun
above 250 - 350 gear shift speed starts to be the limiting factor (unless you are looking at 90mph + acceleration which isn't really the point of these cars) so need to consider a sequential box
above 350 starting to getting into bragging rights and quickly traction limited on all but the perfect driving conditions.
So in summary I would say around 350 is about the sensible limit.
My brother has 360 in his supercharged duratec westy and I would say that is perfect.
Edited by XTR2Turbo on Monday 16th January 18:54
Lordbenny said:
XTR2Turbo said:
My brother has 360 in his supercharged duratec westy and I would say that is perfect.
That sir is possibly the most ridiculous statement I've ever read on this subject. 
Edited by Lordbenny on Tuesday 17th January 08:27
The problem tends to be hi power turbo cars where the torque tends to be excessive and delivery a bit of a switch and a power band from 3500 to 6000.
If you want a high power / performance car near the limits of what these cars can take - a supercharged duratec is perfect.
Did you actually read the op's question? He was asking what is the maximum - not what is sufficient.
Do you wish to offer your own opinion or just ridicule an informed answer.
I have owned / driven Westfields with Cosworth turbo, hayabusa turbo, supercharged v8, supercharged duratec, highly tuned duratec etc.
Comments such as yours are why I seldom bother to post on PH now - Muppet.
Edited by XTR2Turbo on Tuesday 17th January 09:19
A lot of people will say that 125bhp is a 'perfect' figure for a Seven. My car has around 185bhp which I feel is 'perfect' for me. Your brother's car has a LOT more power than an R500 Caterham which most people I have read/spoken to is too much for a Seven. The R300 usually is most people's choice of overall track/road Caterham as the power to weight and overall balance and set up is 'perfect' for that chassis and IIRC that has around 200bhp.
Your statement is suggesting that to get a 'perfect' Seven you need a car that no Seven manufacturer has ever made with the possible exception of the ridiculous Caterham Levante so if you think my post makes me a muppet then....
Your statement is suggesting that to get a 'perfect' Seven you need a car that no Seven manufacturer has ever made with the possible exception of the ridiculous Caterham Levante so if you think my post makes me a muppet then....
You are answering a different question.
The OP asked how much is too much and traction limited not what is sufficient / best.
Unlike most replies that jump back with the reactionary 'what is best considering all factors', I was trying to answer the original question for someone setting out to build an extreme high powered car and worried about when is too much. You read of cars with 400, 500 and even more. In my view around 350 is the sensible limit and at this level of output the supercharged duratec is the best in terms of weight, cost and power delivery. It is actually power delivery and torque curve that is as important as power. You really don't want a slug of torque coming in.
Personally I would avoid high power turbo cars unless you are prepared to do alot of work on torque management through boost control. LS engines look attractive on price and dimensions compared to rover v8s but give too much torque.
I agree around 200bhp is probably sufficient. Much below this and you will soon be bored and thinking of upgrades and if you have the budget to tune 220 - 250 is probably the sweet spot on the road.
I have a N/A 250 bhp dunnell duratec with sequential box and I would say that is great for most use but it is by no means too much and in 4th, 5th and 6th you are waiting for it to accelerate still. But is not what the op was asking.
These cars can put down much more power, in the dry, than most think or have never tried.
My muppet comment was because you knocked my answer when actually I am one of only three posts in 4 pages that actually answered the question around traction limits and sensible maximum power.
Of course everything is relative but try and get out in a powerful Westfield and I think you will change your views.
The OP asked how much is too much and traction limited not what is sufficient / best.
Unlike most replies that jump back with the reactionary 'what is best considering all factors', I was trying to answer the original question for someone setting out to build an extreme high powered car and worried about when is too much. You read of cars with 400, 500 and even more. In my view around 350 is the sensible limit and at this level of output the supercharged duratec is the best in terms of weight, cost and power delivery. It is actually power delivery and torque curve that is as important as power. You really don't want a slug of torque coming in.
Personally I would avoid high power turbo cars unless you are prepared to do alot of work on torque management through boost control. LS engines look attractive on price and dimensions compared to rover v8s but give too much torque.
I agree around 200bhp is probably sufficient. Much below this and you will soon be bored and thinking of upgrades and if you have the budget to tune 220 - 250 is probably the sweet spot on the road.
I have a N/A 250 bhp dunnell duratec with sequential box and I would say that is great for most use but it is by no means too much and in 4th, 5th and 6th you are waiting for it to accelerate still. But is not what the op was asking.
These cars can put down much more power, in the dry, than most think or have never tried.
My muppet comment was because you knocked my answer when actually I am one of only three posts in 4 pages that actually answered the question around traction limits and sensible maximum power.
Of course everything is relative but try and get out in a powerful Westfield and I think you will change your views.
Edited by XTR2Turbo on Tuesday 17th January 10:44
XTR2Turbo said:
Did you actually read the op's question? He was asking what is the maximum - not what is sufficient.
Arguably, the only sensible way of answering this question is by analysing the technical limitations of the state-of-the-art, which is what I tried to do right at the outset: the current critical limits are set by:- Tyre technology. Particularly for road use, since with a lightweight car in road use you can't maintain enough heat in the more extreme 'track day' tyres to make them work properly, unless you drive like the aforementioned muppet and endanger yourself and every other road user. Anyone who has driven a 'Seven' on A048's or 888's in the cold and wet will know how f
king useless they are in extremis, but even at 'normal' road speeds and temperatures they're pretty average: you have to be on a track (or on a mission) before they get enough heat into them to come into their own.
- Damping technology; unfavourable sprung:unsprung weight ratios I've mentioned before. I could bore you with a bit more of the maths, if you like, but the bottom line is that even with the most perfect conventional damping possible, there is a practical, physical limitation here because some force has got to be transmitted to the chassis and that force will cause a variation in grip. Active suspension might offer some answers, but we're a long way from having an aftermarket system that you can cobble onto a kit-car.
- Chassis torsional stiffness; I've not mentioned this one before, and regulars on here will know that I don't have a complex about how stiff my chassis is - I prefer compliant suspension that doesn't demand a particularly stiff chassis to make it work - but if you're using mega power outputs it does begin to be a limitation... and even the best spaceframe 'Seven' (indeed, even the best monocoque Seven) is laughably lacking in torsional stiffness compared to most decent modern cars: that's just what you get when you have negligible depth and thickness to the side structure and big, open-topped holes to fit the driver and engine in. You're lucky to see 2,000lb.ft/degree on a 'Seven' spaceframe. Google the chassis stiffness of a Lotus Elise or even an MGF or MX5 (about the least torsionally stiff mainstream 'performance' cars you'll find) if you want an idea of just how bad that is, in comparison.
...but I suspect that the OP was just a troll, anyway, considering how conspicuous he has been by his absence since his original posting.
Lordbenny said:
A lot of people will say that 125bhp is a 'perfect' figure for a Seven. My car has around 185bhp which I feel is 'perfect' for me. Your brother's car has a LOT more power than an R500 Caterham which most people I have read/spoken to is too much for a Seven. The R300 usually is most people's choice of overall track/road Caterham as the power to weight and overall balance and set up is 'perfect' for that chassis and IIRC that has around 200bhp.
Your statement is suggesting that to get a 'perfect' Seven you need a car that no Seven manufacturer has ever made with the possible exception of the ridiculous Caterham Levante so if you think my post makes me a muppet then....
so your complete dismissal of XTR2's opinions are basing on what you have read/heard rather than actually having driven a high powered Westfield!Your statement is suggesting that to get a 'perfect' Seven you need a car that no Seven manufacturer has ever made with the possible exception of the ridiculous Caterham Levante so if you think my post makes me a muppet then....
Should be noted that he did actually post other information justifying in his actual experience before giving what his view is.... Given that the original question was "how much is too much" and someone who appears to have actual experience rather than just a view has posted, its a bit silly to dismiss his opinion as ridiculous?
thescamper said:
Has anyone mentioned Duncan Cowpers car 500bhp of turbo hayabusa in a 550kg Dax Rush which did a 1 min 17 sec lap of the topgear test track.
No, but;a) It's a track car. It's been repeatedly pointed out that track and road have different limits (you can use stickier tyres, you can maintain them at working temperature, and the surface is much smoother so damping, unsprung mass and torsional stiffness of chassis are much less of an issue on track) and;
b) It rather neatly demonstrates the same point that the Caterham Levante proved: at 500bhp, it's got just about twice the horsepower of a Caterham R500 (and it's pretty much identical weight), yet it was very little quicker.
[quote=Sam_68]
No, but;
a) It's a track car.
Hi just to say that the Dax Rush i used to do the Top Gear Track was on road tyres and was MOT and TAX and was around 340 bhp, the new one has a bit more power but as posted on page two i think 300bhp in any 7 type car is go to be very quick.
No, but;
a) It's a track car.
Hi just to say that the Dax Rush i used to do the Top Gear Track was on road tyres and was MOT and TAX and was around 340 bhp, the new one has a bit more power but as posted on page two i think 300bhp in any 7 type car is go to be very quick.
Yes, I worded my response badly; I meant to say that it was being used on a track, which offers a more favourable environment (surface) than the road.
As to tyres, I'm sure they were road legal (as were the tyres on the Caterham), but what make and spec were they exactly? The A048's on my Westfield are road legal, but to get enough heat into them to make them start working properly takes some fairly brisk driving on the road, so 80% of the time they're offering fairly limited grip and in the cold or wet they are bloody lethal.
Out of interest, how many road miles has your car done now?
As to tyres, I'm sure they were road legal (as were the tyres on the Caterham), but what make and spec were they exactly? The A048's on my Westfield are road legal, but to get enough heat into them to make them start working properly takes some fairly brisk driving on the road, so 80% of the time they're offering fairly limited grip and in the cold or wet they are bloody lethal.
Out of interest, how many road miles has your car done now?
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