Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales

[KDIcarmad]

Ernesto Freitas said:

We are developing a similar concept, (not a beetle chassis design) that will be used as basis for our following models, using rear mid mounted engines and RWD setup.

Making it modular in several aspects, can make the chassis truly flexible in terms of using several drive train packages, bodywork configurations or even overall dimensions.


www.lusomotors.com

I feel that this will work for a mid engine car (the use of rear mid mounted engines show a bit of US English). Our name for a car like this is Brit-Flame. A V6 powered mid engine sports car with 2+2 and a boot. The Brit-Fire is a front engine car.

Mercedes Benz seems to be the donor chosen for our project. This offer's V8 and V12 possibility for a car. A mid-engine V12 supercar!

[KDIcarmad]

OlberJ said:

KDIcarmad said:

(the use of rear mid mounted engines show a bit of US English).

It simply denotes mid engine behind the cockpit (F355) rather than mid engine in front of the cockpit (F12).

FR is where the engine sits on or in front of the front axle, ratehr than behind it.

Yes it does, but as my uncle an English teacher, this was his comment. It is explained as in the US all cars that have engine behind the driver are called rear engine. A Lotus Elise and 911 are both called "rear engine" in the US, as the engine is behind the driver seats.

By the why just for fun all tractors are mid engine. If you use the engine behind front axle as the definition of mid engine.

Edited by KDIcarmad on Tuesday 21st August 10:02

[KDIcarmad]

Stuart Mills said:

Perhaps the industry needs "future proofing" A contemporary design, not a replica, not an attempt at a super car and not something that will cost more than a production car.
I would say this car needs;
A removable roof, soft or hard top,
a windscreen option,
front engine, rear wheel drive,
easy to build with no modifications,
single donor to provide nearly all parts needed,
donor that is modern and readily available at the right money,
no welding or special tools/skills needed,
a degree of practicality in terms of storage and a heater,
designed to pass IVA with ease, EVERY TIME!
low on cost, by design rather than compromise.
Please add to the list.

This is what Brit-Fire was meant to be, an update of the classic British sportscar. A TVR for today. I would say this list is for a GT sports car. The only thing I would add is the build manual need to be very well written. Basically a Idiot guide, I would include a toolkit or link to discount at a tool sale company, so you have all the right tools and know how to use them. On single donor I would go for single maker, with one model for most parts. VAG would a good start. The Golf and cousins offer a lot.

I still like the craze idea of a Mercedes Benz V12 powered cars. In the real world this is not going to sell many. Thinking about Brit-Fire front RWD and Brit-Flame mid-engine RWD looks..handling.. acceleration are what will sells these car. How much power do these need? 200...250...300...400?

Edited by KDIcarmad on Wednesday 22 August 16:45

[KDIcarmad]

The Donkervoort GTO is powered by a longitudinally-mounted Audi 2.5-litre from the TT. That is a Seven type car, RWD? The TT is related to the Golf.

[KDIcarmad]

TheLastPost said:

[
You misunderstand my meaning when I say 'extereme', I think.

I'm thinking in terms of extreme light weight (Sevenesque and exoskeleton cars), extreme high performance (cars like the Ultima) and potentially extreme high-economy (a sector that has yet to be well-exploited).

Your last one "high-economy" leads to some interesting cars. There are already of few out there in the US that fit this.



Don't know a lot about this one. It is claimed it can cross the US on one tank.



http://www.rqriley.com/xr3.htm
This is the XR3 Hybrid that claims high-performance, fast acceleration, a maximum speed of 80 mph, and fuel economy of 125 to over 200 mpg. The link above takes you to there site where you can buy the plans to build yourself one.

Both are interesting cars, both are well designed. The big question is are these big selling kits? The XR3-hybrid is nice and a real car, the other could be a bit to extreme. Both are more than just short rang commuter car. High-economy cars could be fun and usable.

[KDIcarmad]

I stop just fighting over small points. Looking at the new 3D printers, now under £1500, it should be possible to use these to bring up the quality of the interior plastics for very little cost. Thing of all the small plastic bits that make up interiors of most current production car, this industry should in the near future aim to get close to that. Most kit already use bought in seats, as do most modified cars and more than a few production cars. The rest is just carpet and good design. Get the interiors right and the car will feel special and different.

As to a "small coupe" or "TVR style sportscar" with about 300-400 bhp, I see this as possible. The problem is not building one that has an on the road cost of about £15,000 it selling it! I has to be very special, look different and excite people. On top of this it needs to marketed well, not just to the kit car world.

Marketing is the big weakness of the whole kit industry. TVR only got the worlds attention when it put naked lady on its car. That got them into the news and newspapers. It linked them to sex and sexy women (They used good looking models). This is what help to create the image, the cars were not that much better than Marcos and the other similar cars around at the time. Once they started selling they got better becoming great. Cleaver marketing tricks needed!

[KDIcarmad]

TheLastPost said:

KDIcarmad said:

As to a "small coupe" or "TVR style sportscar" with about 300-400 bhp, I see this as possible. The problem is not building one that has an on the road cost of about £15,000 it selling it!

Honestly, if you can build a 300-400bhp kit form 'TVR style' sports car, coupe or not, with a realistic on-the-road price of £15K, it will sell itself.

I just don't think that such a price is even slightly realistic. Sorry. On the basis of similar past and current cars (including Olber's Ginetta G40R), I don't even think you could do a single-donor MX5 based coupe (that wasn't just a bodykit) of passable quality for that sort of money.

But if you think it can be done, it's money where your mouth is time...

Reading the posts you see a lot of people think this cannot be done. Why, as no-ones doing it. I agree getting a coupe right is harder than for an open wheeled door less car. That £15,000 on road is hard, you think it would sell itself, would you be a customer? No, I think not. In fact most people buying the current kit don't want this car, it would need to find new customers.

Sadly I lack both the skill money and knowledge to create this car.

[KDIcarmad]

seansverige said:

Costin & Sayer were not just from a different era but different philosophy in aerodynamic design: theirs was to slip through the air with minimal disturbance and, to an extent, if it was right it should look right (though it was a different kind of aesthetic philosophy).

Admittedly downforce (as opposed to managing lift) probably wasn't on their agenda, but now it's much directing, bending and managing the air to serve their purposes, and tools like CFD allow to this to be done quite precisely: and sometimes the solutions derived from such methods are something the eye tells us is wrong (though it might be argued Costin himself sailed close to that wind on occasion... ).

Look at the design of Costin you see a very diffrent view of cars. Many of the design are very different, but when they work they are fast and sometime good looking. Sayer XKE is a legend design. We have not considered aerodynamics for a car like the Brit-fire, in fact very few kit cars do. Is the whole industry missing something here?

I can think of just four kits today that use aerodynamic to any real effect, the Mini Marcos (1960's) and Midas, all three of there cars. Thinking on the race record of that Marcos, hints that the kit car industry is miss something big. The question is which approach do you follow, downforce and managing the air or the slip through the air with minimal disturbance? Personal I would follow the slip through more. As it leads to different looking cars and I feel downforce is really only important on a smooth road, a track, not the normal every day roads we all drive on. Think about this on a car like the Brit-Fire. Think of the extra performance to be gained.

[KDIcarmad]

TheLastPost said:

I've said many times on these forums that the difference in top speed (hence top end acceleration) between my Sylva and the identically-engined Caterham I owned before it was remarkable - almost 15mph difference on top speed. And the difference in top speed between the unscientific Sylva and an equally powerful Costin-designed Lotus Eleven would be just as marked - the Eleven has recorded speeds almost as high as my 150bhp-ish Sylva managed with only 85bhp or so.

seansverige said:

Pure slip through approach kinda flies in the face of current knowledge, unless you ultimately want to go down route of faired in wheels (and then have to deal with cooling and clearance issues); some very interesting stuff has been done managing extreme high & low pressure areas with devices like air curtains on recent production stuff like 3er, esp. round front wheelarches; current E coupe most aerodynamic production vehicle (or was at launch in 2010), even more so than current Prius. Would really love to find some detailed aero info on both.

Reading TheLastPost I see that a little aerodynamic can do a lot for a car. Seen in race use it is clearly visible and can be seen in the numbers. Seansverige doesn't see the flow way being used by mainstream makes and puts up more than a few problems. Current designs like the Prius and E coupe show what a large car make with all the back up that means can do using air management. In that E coupe used water dynamic as well as aerodynamic.
Now I will point out as a Kit car company use of wind tunnel and water dynamics is rare and costly. The slip approach is easier to try and gives a very different look. What is wrong with cover wheels if they work.

TheLastPost said:

Similarly, if you were to attempt the unfilled niche of an 'ultra-economy' vehicle that I've suggested a couple of times on this thread, you'd need the Costonian low-drag approach, too.

Yesterday I meet a family fiend who live in France and owns a cars dealership. This means he drive long distances on good roads to look at cars.
He would love an ultra-economy car and he is looking for a classic one. A Panhard 24 a 2 door coupe with 848cc engine and very good range.



You could see these as 2CV coupe, as it is a two cylinder engine, in Tiger spec could get this to 100mph. Think a 100mph 2CV! A new car like this would sell. Any ultra-economy car must be more than just a commuter car! I hope you agree.

He told me that they have been selling a lot of "heavy Quadratic" cars in the last three to four years. He comment that he was very shocked to discover that in the UK these were not selling in large numbers. Adding he thought the kit car industry was well placed to enter this market in Europe and to create one in the UK. I do not agree totally, Yes in the UK, in Europe with a market already in place with it own powerful and known company it would be harder. Could this ultra-economy car been a heavy quadratic? That would mean just 18kw of power and 400kg max.

Edited by KDIcarmad on Thursday 30th August 11:02

[KDIcarmad]

The Germany Loremo=150 MPG.



The Jeff Teague 100 MPG concept.

Look at these two and the Panhard all are handsome designs. The Jeff Teague concept is somewhat similar to Brit-Fire. Now this leads to the type of car I feel the kit car industry and who these could be sold to. It is easy to use good aerodynamics at speeds over 30mph on a good road to get very good MPG. Sadly most car live in over crowded cit roads, where those aerodynamics don't work. It does not help that longer cars have better aerodynamics at high speeds.

Any car will spend a lot of time in city traffic, even these, so we want a smaller light car with a small engine. That when on a motorway (or other good road) has aerodynamic that work, giving it a good top speed with a MPG. Lets put some number, targets, well 100mph and 100mpg (150!) would seem a good start. Size next 2 passenger, the classic mini is about the right size, this is a kit car and 2+2/4 seat kits do not sell. Good acceleration across all speeds and sports car handling. Engine size should be small around 1000-1500cc, but not a motor bike engine as these tend to be very loud, meaning you need a lot of sound proofing (heavy) to get a comfortable leave in the cabin. Aerodynamic means this is probably enclosed, creating a big problem with a loud engine. Styling should look sporty, concept car 2012 and very clean. Now who's going to buy these cars.

Well some one who lives on the south coast, say Dover and works in London. Around 60-70 miles one way or 140 miles there and back. Reach our targets that would be just 1.4 gallons a day. About 5.678 liters at current locale prices that just under £8 day. I will let you work it out for your own car, for me it works out at around 18 liters and cost £24.48. That is a big saving per week. I know a number of people who do journeys like this regularly.

Now a quick note. To get the aerodynamics need wheels are a problem, they need opening to move and stick out. Yesterday I saw a fun idea build by some local car nuts. This was a tracked sand racer. It start out as a mini digger and had been converted. This was amazingly fast across sand. It use a hydraulic drive/transmission to power the tracks. Now I am not put forwards the idea of using a tracked on a road car, just that skid steering could be use or other systems could be used to steer. Could a tracked car work, stopping and turn could be fun, this did have a steering wheel.

Edited by KDIcarmad on Friday 31st August 18:34

[KDIcarmad]

TheLastPost said:

KDIcarmad said:

The Germany Loremo=150 MPG.

It's amazing the fuel economy you can get out of a CGI these days, isn't it?

Should have put a "?" or "!" on end of the MPG.




CGI images are get really good!

Edited by KDIcarmad on Friday 31st August 18:41

[KDIcarmad]

fuoriserie said:

Here is a concept worth considering for the future, a very basic 2 seater fwd roadster:

http://www.davebence.co.uk/index.htm

The Onyx Firefox was a very interesting little kitcar...it could do with a styling update since the design is 10yrs. old now..., but having millions of fwd hatchback laying around in scrap yards, you could get a nice 16valve engine rev happy for peanuts and use it as a donor for a cheap and cheerfull sport runabout....

An interesting idea. I do remember a three wheeled Onyx or am I wrong on that. For some reason the kit car industry seems to dislikes FWD, which seems odd when most of the cars on our roads are front wheel drive.

If I updated this I would place the two rear wheel very close (within 16 inches) so they count as one and you get the cheap motorbike tax and insurance. Add a bit of aerodynamics and you could make a few Seven owner very unhappy. Keep it simple and cheap, pile them up and sell'em cheap.

It should be designed to fit a number of engines. I would use a Mercedes Benz A-class. As this would give a very low bonnet line and good aerodynamic. For production you would need to look at a car that offer more engines, the Golf and it related cars would be a good idea.

Edited by KDIcarmad on Saturday 1st September 09:55

[KDIcarmad]

Nikolai said:

I'd say there's definitely space for a front wheel drive kit but it's unlikely to have much focus on performance - but as said before with all those cheap hatchbacks in scrap yards then the opportunity is there for a fun summer car or buggy type of thing for the export market. £2k plus a 1.25 zetec fiesta = fun rental cars in Marbella!

Explain why it's unlikely to have much focus on performance? This is a very sweeping statement.

Looking at the fast hatchbacks of the last few, a few of which had great handle, I feel this is wrong. There is already a modern performance FWD kit in the Blackjack Zero. If you don't like that take a look at Mini Marcos race record and say a FWD kit can't be a performance car. Remembering that any kit should weight a lot less than the hatchback its running gear came from it must be faster, the problem is getting it to handle right. FWD cars can have good handling, I know how good from a ride in a Lotus Elan (M100). I don't see a big market for that summer buggy car after this summers weather. In Marbella?

[KDIcarmad]

Nikolai said:

I personally would never pick a fwd kit because a)it won't look as good to the majority of people as a mid or rear engined car (and that is an undisputable fact) and b) you can't go sideways. The relatively high bonnet line will never be that exciting to look at and if you did want front wheel drive thrills buy a Clio 182. , hatchbacks get away with the looks by being chunky and agressive but also have 4 setas and lots of refinement, something that has already been disregarded for the most part in this thread due to cost and competition from 'normal' cars. The blackjack zero is a 3-wheeler which is a different subject and dynamic proposition entirely, I was referring to 4 wheeled cars.

A new mini moke...?

Shock horror you would not want a FWD kit car!

Ugly car can be desirable! Look at a few Zagato designs, many are not pretty cars, but you still want them. At these I do and from the value of these cars others agree. Many modern engines would give a much lower bonnet line than a classic mini A series. A much bigger problem is the limit on amount of BHP you can send to the front wheels.

This line shown you think this could be none...
"It is unlikely that kit car manufacturers would be willing to invest enough money to make a good looking good handling front wheel drive car."

A FWD car would be different to other kits, you don't want one, other younger drivers, don't have your dislikes. There are drivers under 30 who have never driven a RWD and see a sports cars a GTI not Seven. I know number of younger drive, who are very into cars, these like this idea. The reason I brought up the Zero is it show a FWD kit car can sell and younger drivers like it. Yes it's a small market currently and not mainstream. No one builds a track day FWD car, that is shocking track day cars mainstream!

I think there is a bit of no ones doing this, so no one will try it.

As to that mini Moke, a friend use to own a Mini Scamp. A lot of fun!

[KDIcarmad]

I thought this would get a lot more comments!

The kit car industry has a problem, it loves RWD cars while the rest of the world uses more and more FWD. Clearly there are only a few RWD donors now, basically BMW and Mercedes in Europe. This mean it is hard to find modern back axles and gearboxes when converting engine from FWD to RWD.

The main time you see a FWD system used in a kit car it's a Mid-engine car. Which means a system to operate its gearbox, now at the rear, is need. These are often long and lack feel.

Why is this happening? Simple, currently the track day car is king, mostly in the shape of a "Seven". Coupled with this is a power (BHP) race, putting more and more power into light track day cars is tacking place. For a road car you only need a car that can reach about 120mph, a speed that many seven are limited to by there aerodynamics.

Handling of FWD has been commented on. Yes you cannot go sideways as you can in a RWD car. Do you really want to? The Mini showed a FWD car can win races and rally's against RWD. Clearly this shows both are good just different. Looks it has been commented that FWD cars are ugly....




Is this ugly? I see the Austin Healey and AC Cobra in the styling, plus a little MGA all ugly cars. It is FWD, and in the 1960's often won against Fiat 500's in Italian races, with just 328cc! How did it win! Handling?



This the Midas Gold coupe, a great FWD kit car from the 1980's. Is this ugly?
Yes, but I still want it.

A FWD track car if the design is right will work! It should be easier to build than most kit cars, with a wider selection engines that could be fitted. Keep it simple and get a good designer!

[KDIcarmad]

I have been in a Lotus Elan (M100). It keep up with a MX 5 on the A+B roads. Agree it had problem, to big, to much weight and disliked my Lotus buyer. It is still a great car. If it had been smaller and lighter...But it was not. All this just makes them a good buy for a cleaver buyer. I bet the prices will go up in the near future.

As to 0-60 times are these really that important on the road or at a track day. I find mid range power more use full. I do know off a Maestro UFO 1 that put out over 340 BHP and could do a standing 1/4 mile in 6.9 seconds (sadly it was stolen and crashed about ten years ago). It also has good mid range performance. UFO 2 was not as powerful, but a ZT is pland that will be faster and more powerful. The weight transfer is a problem on many cars. Your point out the engine on many FWD lives in front of the axle, how far does the weight move? From in front of the axle to just behind it. Does not the same happen on RWD drive cars? I've seen drag racer lift there front wheels for the same reason.

A mini Marcos still holds many British and Internationale class performance records. If RWD drive cars are so much better why does this car still hold these!

[KDIcarmad]

I have been looking back over the posting on this. Clearly no one like the idea of a performance kit with FWD. I find this very funny when you think that for many years one of the best selling kit was the Lomax, a FWD three wheeler. No one has replace this yet. Lets no get onto three wheeler's as there is already a topic for this... http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... The Blackjack Zero show a FWD three wheeled car with the right styling will sell. A replacement for the Lomax would need to be a lot cheaper than that Zero.

[KDIcarmad]

TheLastPost said:

KDIcarmad said:

I find this very funny when you think that for many years one of the best selling kit was the Lomax, a FWD three wheeler.

Do you find it equally puzzling that nobody is suggesting that the answer to the industry's problems is to build a car with a rear mounted, air cooled flat 4 engine, swing axle rear and trailing arm front suspension?

If the beetle was still out there in large number, yes! A Nova would still be one of the most amazing looking cars on the road. Add in that in the US they are get 500 BHP (with turbos) out of that flat 4 engine!

[KDIcarmad]

TheLastPost said:

The Lomax wasn't successful because it exploited a gap in the market for a FWD sports car any more than the Nova was successful because people wanted an air cooled flat-4 that sounded like a fart in a tin bath coupled to a textbook example of how not to design suspension.

The closest we have to a 'modern' 2CV or Volkswagen Beetle is probably the MX5: no convenient separate chassis, admittedly, but at least it has subfames and the PPF tying everything together so that bridging them with a fabricated chassis is fairly straightforward. Guess what donor the most successful recent manufacturer of budget kit cars (MEV) uses?

The NOVA sold on it looks! As to Lomax not exploiting a gap, there must have been a lot of people looking for a cheap fun car.

Are you comparing the MEV's to the Lomax? In which case it is a good one. Personal I find it a bit crazy to take a good sports car with a hood and body work and make it less piratical. The Lomax did offer a hood, never seen on a car but it was there if you wanted one. Clearly a lot of people do not agree with me and are buying the MEV. Out of interest I wonder how long before we start see old MX 5 being advertised as donors, this did happen with the Beetle.

[KDIcarmad]

Kit Car hell or heaven.
I have been planning to post this for a few days, but waited until I got it right. These are the two ways the feel the kit car industry could go, hell or heaven.

First hell...

The industry does not change. Sales carry on dropping. The regulations, under which kit cars are sold, get tighter and tighter, more costly. EU regulations will affect these more than today. The mainstream car industry builds more and more hybrids and electric cars. These create problems at the end of their life, disposal of the batteries. The green lobby get the rules on car disposal tighten and the mainstream industry to pay for this. This is happening in Germany with BMW already having a set up to buy up old BMW at the end of their life. Less donor cars, as they brake them for parts. The rules on the use of reconditioned parts could be very tight in the near future. It is possible we will have a new car “scrappage” scheme, I hope not. Electronics fitted to these are so complex and “closed” by the manufactures forcing the use after market ECU systems on ever kit car, adding cost.

Low sales means less interest, the magazines first go bi-month before closing or moving onto the internet. This would be massive blow for the industry. Shows would also close, as cost go up and visitors down.

Petrol prices are going to keep going up! Track days become very costly, just for the rich. Lower demand for track day kit cars. The play station generation grows into adults with no interest in kit cars, the VR generations gets it fun in unreal words.

The last kit car company closes in about 25 years.

Heaven is very different....

CAD and CAM will offer the chance to bring down costs and improved quality. 3D printers are getting cheaper and more widely able, metal 3D printer are already being use in F1 and the aerospace words those will become more widely able in the future and cheaper, they will be able to build parts a lot cheaper, better and faster. Lower cost and higher quality will help the way people view kit cars. As more part are bespoke and fit easier, it will make the build process a lot simpler and widen the people who believe they could build a kit car. The CAD process must lead to new designs of kit car. It will also bring in new manufacture, with new ideas. What these will be I do not know.

As the mainstream carmakers, build electric/hybrid cars and the prices of petrol goes up, the kit car industry responds with ultra MPG cars. Cars with small engines and top speeds over 100mph, but still giving 100mpg to 200mpg in normal driving. Growing sales. It is possible the kit industry may recycle the electric motors from those hybrid/electric cars into new kit car.

The industry grows and starts to market itself better, working together, they talk to the government. Helping create the rules under which kits cars are built and changing EU laws that would affect kit cars. Those, ultra MPG could lead to aerodynamic track day cars, which are faster and using smaller engine or electric motors. These help sales.

I know this is very black and white. Parts of both will probable be what happens in real life.