Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales
Discussion
Dreamspeed said:
Yes, you’re absolutely right! And this is the key to producing such a kitcar, for such a tight budget. My personnel favourite “budget combo” is the Audi A6 2.7 V6 bi-turbo, mated to the 6 speed Audi TDI gearbox.
I’m doing the research on it now, and I’ve already bought a suitable donor car (which actually cost less to buy than having the clutch replaced on my old Cerbera!)
The Audi A6 or Allroad 2.7T engine is basically a de-tuned S4 engine. Over in America, there’s quite a big following and plenty of tuning parts available. One chap has pushed his to over 900bhp, although I can’t honestly say that this can be done on a budget, and possibly the life time of the engine has been compromised, but it just shows you the potential.
You are on to a winner with the A6 engine. I recently picked up a 2.7T as the family wagon and it's a cracking engine. In fact I've had the same thought as you - it would be fantastic in something smaller! Using it as a donor car (including interior) is a great idea - with such a nice, tuneable engine plus many many different interior specs to choose from and available commonly and cheaply - our Avant Quattro with Recaros and 6 months tax & test was only a hair over £2k; I bet you could find one even cheaper as an MOT failure.I’m doing the research on it now, and I’ve already bought a suitable donor car (which actually cost less to buy than having the clutch replaced on my old Cerbera!)
The Audi A6 or Allroad 2.7T engine is basically a de-tuned S4 engine. Over in America, there’s quite a big following and plenty of tuning parts available. One chap has pushed his to over 900bhp, although I can’t honestly say that this can be done on a budget, and possibly the life time of the engine has been compromised, but it just shows you the potential.
Very, very interested in your project, especially the "civilisation" of it as you described - avoiding leaks etc, generally making it a practical proposition - while not being a panel kit.
Definitely keep us posted.
OwenK said:
You are on to a winner with the A6 engine. I recently picked up a 2.7T as the family wagon and it's a cracking engine. In fact I've had the same thought as you - it would be fantastic in something smaller! Using it as a donor car (including interior) is a great idea - with such a nice, tuneable engine plus many many different interior specs to choose from and available commonly and cheaply - our Avant Quattro with Recaros and 6 months tax & test was only a hair over £2k; I bet you could find one even cheaper as an MOT failure.
Very, very interested in your project, especially the "civilisation" of it as you described - avoiding leaks etc, generally making it a practical proposition - while not being a panel kit.
Definitely keep us posted.
Thanks OwenK, I agree the 2.7T is a cracking engine, and even with 230-250bhp, the A6 Quattro is still a quick old thing! I bought mine as a complete running, MOTed car for less than 1500 quid, it’s currently being used as a work horse, picking up spares and materials etc. and has surprised many a boy racer at the lights!Very, very interested in your project, especially the "civilisation" of it as you described - avoiding leaks etc, generally making it a practical proposition - while not being a panel kit.
Definitely keep us posted.
My kit does use the dash etc. from the donor (Base kit based on the Audi A6 C4) but the dash from the Audi A6 C5, such as yours, can easily be adapted to fit. Including cup holders, dual climate control, Bose stereo and even satnav if you have it!
I’m sure you’ve looked under your bonnet, and the engine is an impressive site, but looks worrying difficult to work on; getting to anything, such as the turbos, steering rack etc. is extremely difficult and costly at your local Audi Dealer, but if you put that engine in a mid-engined car, where the entire rear bodywork lifts away, access is no longer a problem, and costs are drastically reduced!
Yes, I am trying to develop a kitcar with a “Civilised” interior. I’m hoping for a factory finished looked; like a 2-seater, low slung Audi.
I’ll keep you posted.
Dreamspeed said:
Thanks OwenK, I agree the 2.7T is a cracking engine, and even with 230-250bhp, the A6 Quattro is still a quick old thing! I bought mine as a complete running, MOTed car for less than 1500 quid, it’s currently being used as a work horse, picking up spares and materials etc. and has surprised many a boy racer at the lights!
My kit does use the dash etc. from the donor (Base kit based on the Audi A6 C4) but the dash from the Audi A6 C5, such as yours, can easily be adapted to fit. Including cup holders, dual climate control, Bose stereo and even satnav if you have it!
I’m sure you’ve looked under your bonnet, and the engine is an impressive site, but looks worrying difficult to work on; getting to anything, such as the turbos, steering rack etc. is extremely difficult and costly at your local Audi Dealer, but if you put that engine in a mid-engined car, where the entire rear bodywork lifts away, access is no longer a problem, and costs are drastically reduced!
Yes, I am trying to develop a kitcar with a “Civilised” interior. I’m hoping for a factory finished looked; like a 2-seater, low slung Audi.
I’ll keep you posted.
I look forward to it. I'm actually a design engineer for an automotive OEM, and have a keen interest in the styling (and feasibility) side of things - particularly with regards to kit cars/rebodies and so on. If you're interested in discussing further before you're wanting to "go public" so to speak, feel free to give me an email.My kit does use the dash etc. from the donor (Base kit based on the Audi A6 C4) but the dash from the Audi A6 C5, such as yours, can easily be adapted to fit. Including cup holders, dual climate control, Bose stereo and even satnav if you have it!
I’m sure you’ve looked under your bonnet, and the engine is an impressive site, but looks worrying difficult to work on; getting to anything, such as the turbos, steering rack etc. is extremely difficult and costly at your local Audi Dealer, but if you put that engine in a mid-engined car, where the entire rear bodywork lifts away, access is no longer a problem, and costs are drastically reduced!
Yes, I am trying to develop a kitcar with a “Civilised” interior. I’m hoping for a factory finished looked; like a 2-seater, low slung Audi.
I’ll keep you posted.
For me it's the styling. There are so many kits out there that no doubt drive well but look an absolute dog. I would like to see a kit that has a fixed roof or at least a t-bar and panels with a bespoke dashboard and good choice of lights, mirrors and glass. I think that trying to graft 406 or MX5 headlights onto a car that isn't a 406 or MX5 really looks naff as they were designed for the specific contours of those cars. If that means using generic round lights then that's fine and I think Noble, TVR and GTM made good use if them. If it looks cohesive then I'll consider it, then I'll look at the chassis and powertrain setup. I like that Titan car that was based on a TVR M and also the American GTM.
Irrespective of the economic situation, one very significant difference between 10-20 years ago and today is that the `average car' then performed pretty poorly and the mere act of removing excess weight and transferring the drivetrain into something else provided something quite exotic - the Lotus 7 is the obvious example. It's performance was dramatically different from the cortinas of the time.
Today, `average cars' perform much better and building a kitcar does not offer the same advantages. Todays production cars not only perform better but they are also better built relatively cheaper. The continuing popularity of small light `seven-esque' kits speak to the remaining performance advantages that lighter weight offers.
Kits have to offfer something not abtainable from production cars and the obvious examples are the satisfaction of building your own solution, or the joy of being different. I beleive that these aspects and the remaining performance advantages pretty much explains the current range of popular kits.
I would like an affordable GT70-like 2 seat touring open car with room for an audi V6 tdi and and two overnight bags. Something bigger than a J15, but lower cost and perhaps a little smaller than a GT70 or Ultima spyder.
Today, `average cars' perform much better and building a kitcar does not offer the same advantages. Todays production cars not only perform better but they are also better built relatively cheaper. The continuing popularity of small light `seven-esque' kits speak to the remaining performance advantages that lighter weight offers.
Kits have to offfer something not abtainable from production cars and the obvious examples are the satisfaction of building your own solution, or the joy of being different. I beleive that these aspects and the remaining performance advantages pretty much explains the current range of popular kits.
I would like an affordable GT70-like 2 seat touring open car with room for an audi V6 tdi and and two overnight bags. Something bigger than a J15, but lower cost and perhaps a little smaller than a GT70 or Ultima spyder.
Perhaps another problem is that this country has bred a generation which can program computers, but would have a fit if asked to change a cambelt?
My Dad taught me the basics of spannering back in the early 1980s when I bought my first Mini. He showed me how to do the plugs, points, set the timing, replace brake shoes and de-coke the old A Series as a matter of course.
My Dad taught me the basics of spannering back in the early 1980s when I bought my first Mini. He showed me how to do the plugs, points, set the timing, replace brake shoes and de-coke the old A Series as a matter of course.
Pat H said:
Perhaps another problem is that this country has bred a generation which can program computers, but would have a fit if asked to change a cambelt?
My Dad taught me the basics of spannering back in the early 1980s when I bought my first Mini. He showed me how to do the plugs, points, set the timing, replace brake shoes and de-coke the old A Series as a matter of course.
Sadly pretty much true though I'm not too sure about the computers bit. More like play the X-box or if multi tasking the Nintendo DSMy Dad taught me the basics of spannering back in the early 1980s when I bought my first Mini. He showed me how to do the plugs, points, set the timing, replace brake shoes and de-coke the old A Series as a matter of course.
When I was at school it was very much looked down upon to want to get your hands dirty. There was a big move to point kids to being bankers lawyers and basically paper shufflers. Surprise surprise now the UK makes naff all and we've got nothing to get us out of a recession that was so obviously coming. Kit cars are an ideal way to inspire kids to get back to making things. We just need to get Blue Peter and Tomorrow's World back on prime TV instead of X Factor.
qdos said:
Sadly pretty much true though I'm not too sure about the computers bit. More like play the X-box or if multi tasking the Nintendo DS
When I was at school it was very much looked down upon to want to get your hands dirty. There was a big move to point kids to being bankers lawyers and basically paper shufflers. Surprise surprise now the UK makes naff all and we've got nothing to get us out of a recession that was so obviously coming. Kit cars are an ideal way to inspire kids to get back to making things. We just need to get Blue Peter and Tomorrow's World back on prime TV instead of X Factor.
I don't remember Blue Peter or Tomorrow's World being on a Saturday night. New Faces yes! Is X-Factor/BGT/the voice not just an updated New Face. When I was at school it was very much looked down upon to want to get your hands dirty. There was a big move to point kids to being bankers lawyers and basically paper shufflers. Surprise surprise now the UK makes naff all and we've got nothing to get us out of a recession that was so obviously coming. Kit cars are an ideal way to inspire kids to get back to making things. We just need to get Blue Peter and Tomorrow's World back on prime TV instead of X Factor.
As to computers they are so 1980's! It all mobile phones, Ipads and downloads now with the kids.
As to kit cars in schools, a good idea. Do schools have any space for this or a set of tools?
one eyed mick said:
The biggest prob to engineering in schools is H+S restraints the poor little darlings may injure themselves because the teacher /instructor is too busy filling risk assesment paper work instead of teaching saftey procedures
I think it's more a case of the types of people who are teachers these days. I don't mean to have a pop at teachers as such (half my family are teachers) but the whole education system is geared to tick boxes and paperwork these days. No body actually teaches or educates kids now. They are just guided to fit into a profile and popped into pigeon holes. Far too much middle management producing more and more middle managementAnyways back to Kit Cars....
It’s a little off topic, but many valid points have been made none the less; I too agree that most of today’s generation are not “doers” anymore; quite happy to play X-box and live in some fantasy “World of war craft” life. Even if today’s children want to try, the OTT health and safety people step in and ban it all. There’s too many middle management, busy doing nothing and today’s generation it’s all about immediate gratification.
It’s a lot easier to go into massive debt, over an exotic car, rather than putting the effort into building one yourself.
Great Britain is no longer a nation of great builders; everyone’s too busy with power-point, to make anything! It’s a country run by continually incompetent governments that don’t have the vision to look beyond the 4 years they’re in power for.
However, kitcar building has always been and I think always will be a niche market, only targeting a very small percentage of a very large motoring loving public, and although the majority of people are happy watching “x-factor” and supping a warm pint down their local, there will always be people with the dreams and passion for doing something different, and perhaps build their own car.
Kitcars have never sold in their thousands and not even hundreds, if a kitcar company would sell say 30 kits’, I’d consider this a success. So when you weigh up the figures, 30 customers in a UK population of 62 million is a customer base of just 0.00004838%!
So is there 0.00005% of the population in just the UK willing to pick up the spanner? I think so.
I don’t think the economic situation is too much of a problem with such a low customer base. Yes I agree, it does have marginal implications, but there will always be people who can afford expensive “toys”. If you look at today’s Supercar market, they don’t seem to be having a problem.
Comparing the performance to todays and yester-years ‘average’ donor car; I totally agree, Technology and ultimately performance has leapt in leaps and bounds, in my opinion this is a good thing:
Taking an old pinto from a Cortina, and putting it into a “Super-7” is a great way of achieving lively performance. This equation is still valid today, it’s just the goal posts have been moved. For example, taking a “modern turbo engine” out of an old “Luxo-barge” takes the lively performance and now gives you blistering performance. We live in an age where it’s quite possible to build a 200mph Kitcar with sub 4 second acceleration. Not to mention incorporating a whole host of iPod/satnav/”mod-cons”
I’d just like to add, 20 years ago the internet wasn’t really anything special, today…… well you could start a new thread on how the internet helps the average DIY kitcar builder!
I think what the Kitcar industry needs, is something new and fresh. Something useable and affordable, yet unique enough to turn heads and fast enough to excite.
I must say, I’m enjoying this thread!
It’s a lot easier to go into massive debt, over an exotic car, rather than putting the effort into building one yourself.
Great Britain is no longer a nation of great builders; everyone’s too busy with power-point, to make anything! It’s a country run by continually incompetent governments that don’t have the vision to look beyond the 4 years they’re in power for.
However, kitcar building has always been and I think always will be a niche market, only targeting a very small percentage of a very large motoring loving public, and although the majority of people are happy watching “x-factor” and supping a warm pint down their local, there will always be people with the dreams and passion for doing something different, and perhaps build their own car.
Kitcars have never sold in their thousands and not even hundreds, if a kitcar company would sell say 30 kits’, I’d consider this a success. So when you weigh up the figures, 30 customers in a UK population of 62 million is a customer base of just 0.00004838%!
So is there 0.00005% of the population in just the UK willing to pick up the spanner? I think so.
I don’t think the economic situation is too much of a problem with such a low customer base. Yes I agree, it does have marginal implications, but there will always be people who can afford expensive “toys”. If you look at today’s Supercar market, they don’t seem to be having a problem.
Comparing the performance to todays and yester-years ‘average’ donor car; I totally agree, Technology and ultimately performance has leapt in leaps and bounds, in my opinion this is a good thing:
Taking an old pinto from a Cortina, and putting it into a “Super-7” is a great way of achieving lively performance. This equation is still valid today, it’s just the goal posts have been moved. For example, taking a “modern turbo engine” out of an old “Luxo-barge” takes the lively performance and now gives you blistering performance. We live in an age where it’s quite possible to build a 200mph Kitcar with sub 4 second acceleration. Not to mention incorporating a whole host of iPod/satnav/”mod-cons”
I’d just like to add, 20 years ago the internet wasn’t really anything special, today…… well you could start a new thread on how the internet helps the average DIY kitcar builder!
I think what the Kitcar industry needs, is something new and fresh. Something useable and affordable, yet unique enough to turn heads and fast enough to excite.
I must say, I’m enjoying this thread!
There's been quite a few posts on appealing to a younger audience - I don't think too much effort needs to be made for people under 25 - from my own experience and that of my friends, hardly anyone under 25 has the money or garage space to build a kit car and the odd case of father-son bonding isn't going to keep a manufacturer in business. Plus as someone mentionned earlier, it'd more likely be a panel kit than a full kit they buy as it's generally cheaper but they'd be stuck with the insurance costs of the base car - not many 17-21 year olds would want to be forking out tons of money for insurance on an MR2 or MX5 before even buying the panel/rebody kit.
But a 28-35 year old who can muster £7-10k, wanting a fun car with good looks for the weekend or maybe the odd commute to work on a sunny Friday, wonder what the options are? Apart from the MEVX5 which has had good and bad reaction, the expensive Murtaya (I'm not a fan personally) might appeal but not much else apart from that.
But a 28-35 year old who can muster £7-10k, wanting a fun car with good looks for the weekend or maybe the odd commute to work on a sunny Friday, wonder what the options are? Apart from the MEVX5 which has had good and bad reaction, the expensive Murtaya (I'm not a fan personally) might appeal but not much else apart from that.
Good to have more debate here.
I'd like to just point out however a couple of things relating to the two posts above...
Most of what is left of the British Car industry started off building Kits Lotus, Noble, Ginetta, Caterham to mention but a few...
Many of us started in Kit cars when we were much younger and in my case I was 17/18 when I built my first car. Insurance on Kit Cars is a lot cheaper than production cars. Partly as you're not really likely to wrap your pride and joy round a lamp post if you built it yourself and spent many long nights and weekends hard graft to do it. If you do damage it you're more likely to fix it yourself than have some other garage do it.
There's a lot of good things about kit cars and I'd actually go as far to say that they are often better than mass produced vehicles. Certainly better for the British economy. So can we be a bit more positive please? We should be singing the praises of our fantastic industry. Let's forget we're British for a moment and stop doing our selves down and actually encourage people to have a go.
I'd like to just point out however a couple of things relating to the two posts above...
Most of what is left of the British Car industry started off building Kits Lotus, Noble, Ginetta, Caterham to mention but a few...
Many of us started in Kit cars when we were much younger and in my case I was 17/18 when I built my first car. Insurance on Kit Cars is a lot cheaper than production cars. Partly as you're not really likely to wrap your pride and joy round a lamp post if you built it yourself and spent many long nights and weekends hard graft to do it. If you do damage it you're more likely to fix it yourself than have some other garage do it.
There's a lot of good things about kit cars and I'd actually go as far to say that they are often better than mass produced vehicles. Certainly better for the British economy. So can we be a bit more positive please? We should be singing the praises of our fantastic industry. Let's forget we're British for a moment and stop doing our selves down and actually encourage people to have a go.
Qdos do you think there's scope for a kit designed to take something around a 1.2l engine from a cheap hatch (Fiesta)? Thing is for a young person to want it its got to look good mainly, but also not overtly sporty as it won't have the grunt to back up the looks. Trouble is that round my way, they either borrow the family runaround, or more often than not daddy buys them a 3yr old Mini Cooper. (I had to make do with £500 barely road legal cars when I was starting out but that doesn't seem to happen anymore..).
So for a business to make a profit, are you going to have to get the exact magic formula right of price, looks and practicality, to sell a cheap kit to 17-25 yr olds who might still live at home, go to Uni and have less cash, or are you going to design something that aimed at people with more disposable income (more likely to be in 28+ age range) where the profits should be higher?
I definitely don't want to sound negative, I'd personally like to develop all sorts of different concepts but very few could expect to become profitable.
Slightly off topic, but was looking at single donor options for a kit design and Ford Focus mk1 ticks all the boxes apart from its wheel bolt pattern - difficult to find nice non-chavvy alloys in 4x108!
So for a business to make a profit, are you going to have to get the exact magic formula right of price, looks and practicality, to sell a cheap kit to 17-25 yr olds who might still live at home, go to Uni and have less cash, or are you going to design something that aimed at people with more disposable income (more likely to be in 28+ age range) where the profits should be higher?
I definitely don't want to sound negative, I'd personally like to develop all sorts of different concepts but very few could expect to become profitable.
Slightly off topic, but was looking at single donor options for a kit design and Ford Focus mk1 ticks all the boxes apart from its wheel bolt pattern - difficult to find nice non-chavvy alloys in 4x108!
Nikolai
Yes I most certainly do they already exist and there's more to come too. Just stay tuned
With regards what types of cars we're doing the answer is both that you describe.
I'll also point out that often you'll find youngsters do actually splash out a lot of money on their cars, after all there's apparently not a lot of point to trying to save to put down a deposit on a house these days. It's a sector of the market that Kit Cars should be looking at far more.
One other good thing about the Kit Car Industry that makes it rather special is that it's not generally one that's driven by profit and is mostly motivated by enthusiasm that can sometimes border on fanaticism. A side shoot of this is that, through necessity, overheads are often relatively small. To my mind this makes a better business model than one that's backed by financial institutions that are dishing out expensive loans that they don't care about the consequences of getting wrong.
Yes I most certainly do they already exist and there's more to come too. Just stay tuned
With regards what types of cars we're doing the answer is both that you describe. I'll also point out that often you'll find youngsters do actually splash out a lot of money on their cars, after all there's apparently not a lot of point to trying to save to put down a deposit on a house these days. It's a sector of the market that Kit Cars should be looking at far more.
One other good thing about the Kit Car Industry that makes it rather special is that it's not generally one that's driven by profit and is mostly motivated by enthusiasm that can sometimes border on fanaticism. A side shoot of this is that, through necessity, overheads are often relatively small. To my mind this makes a better business model than one that's backed by financial institutions that are dishing out expensive loans that they don't care about the consequences of getting wrong.
Edited by qdos on Tuesday 1st May 07:04
1. Getting on the housing ladder.
2. Paying off student loans.
3. Lack of practical mechanical knowledge and ability.
4. Cost and hassle of IVA.
5. Attractive alternatives - MX5, Elise, restoring old cars etc.
6. General state of the economy.
There are a lot of things conspiring against the kit car industry. Most of them are out of our control.
At the same time, the information freely available on the interweb is invaluable help.
Build diaries are a wonderful resource. eBay makes it so straightforward to obtain those rare and obscure bits and pieces to finish off your car. It should be easier than ever before to build your own car.
The expense and inconvenience of IVA is the biggest disincentive for me. I am not sure whether the state intended to strangle the industry and reduce the number of home built cars, or whether it was introduced solely to increase safety. The cynic in me suspects that it was a bit of both.
Either way, it is serving to depress a significant part of this country's manufacturing industry at a time when it should be encouraged.
If we had been lumbered with IVA back in the 1950s it is unlikely that we would ever have seen the likes of Lotus, certainly not Caterham, Marcos, Ginetta etc etc.
It bothers me to think of the flair and talent that is being stifled because of second hand leglistation that is flowing from Europe.
Look at the UK kit car industry, how it was twenty years ago, and how it is looking today. Now cast an eye across the Channel to Europe and see the size and scope of the industry on the continent, where restrictive legislation has been in place for decades.
It is depressing, but that's the way we are heading and it about time that the buggers in Whitehall sat up and took notice.
2. Paying off student loans.
3. Lack of practical mechanical knowledge and ability.
4. Cost and hassle of IVA.
5. Attractive alternatives - MX5, Elise, restoring old cars etc.
6. General state of the economy.
There are a lot of things conspiring against the kit car industry. Most of them are out of our control.
At the same time, the information freely available on the interweb is invaluable help.
Build diaries are a wonderful resource. eBay makes it so straightforward to obtain those rare and obscure bits and pieces to finish off your car. It should be easier than ever before to build your own car.
The expense and inconvenience of IVA is the biggest disincentive for me. I am not sure whether the state intended to strangle the industry and reduce the number of home built cars, or whether it was introduced solely to increase safety. The cynic in me suspects that it was a bit of both.
Either way, it is serving to depress a significant part of this country's manufacturing industry at a time when it should be encouraged.
If we had been lumbered with IVA back in the 1950s it is unlikely that we would ever have seen the likes of Lotus, certainly not Caterham, Marcos, Ginetta etc etc.
It bothers me to think of the flair and talent that is being stifled because of second hand leglistation that is flowing from Europe.
Look at the UK kit car industry, how it was twenty years ago, and how it is looking today. Now cast an eye across the Channel to Europe and see the size and scope of the industry on the continent, where restrictive legislation has been in place for decades.
It is depressing, but that's the way we are heading and it about time that the buggers in Whitehall sat up and took notice.
[Quote] stay tuned
[/quote]
Will do!
At the moment I can't think of any kits that would appeal to that age range, be affordable and ok with a small engine. Sylva (or whoever has it now..) mojo in essence maybe but its a horrible looking car!
They do spend a lot of money on cars but as someone else pointed out, with a road car you can do it a bit at a time as funds allow.
[/quote]
Will do!
At the moment I can't think of any kits that would appeal to that age range, be affordable and ok with a small engine. Sylva (or whoever has it now..) mojo in essence maybe but its a horrible looking car!
They do spend a lot of money on cars but as someone else pointed out, with a road car you can do it a bit at a time as funds allow.
Pat H said:
It is depressing, but that's the way we are heading and it about time that the buggers in Whitehall sat up and took notice.
Unfortunately the buggers in Whitehall have no interest in cars beyond how much tax they can extract from them, and they're too short-sighted to realise that it is largely spin-offs from the kit car and 'clubman' racing scene that has given us the best racing car industry in the world and all the high-tech engineering knowledge and reputation that spins off that. 
Hmm, been giving this more thought.
As I see it, the affordable 2 seater sports car niche that used to be the stomping ground of the kit car has been usurped by the OEMs and now you can get a good Porsche Boxter for the price of a Westfield.
Where I think there may be a hole is in the light, sports, semi practical 4 seater. The classic version would be the Elan+2, the closest you will get now is the RX8 and maybe shortly the GT-86.
The latter and its cousin the BRZ seem to me to be moving away from the wide fat sticky tyres towards harder narrower and ultimately less grippy tyres for more progressive handling (something I'm in favour of).
If the Kit Car industry could produce a 21st Century Elan+2 but with proper rear seats like an RX8, that was cheap to build using as many off the shelf parts as possible, had decent power from something like an Audi 1.8T up front, maybe running an Audi box moved to the rear like the Porsche 924 with torque tube to suit for better weight distribution. Cheap alloy calipers and non vented discs to save unsprung weight, 205 profile off the shelf tyres and wheels to give progressive slides rather than ultimate grip/sudden spin handling. The sort of car I could use every day, fit the wife and kids into with luggage enough for a weekend away, cheap to run and service, fun on the occasional track day.
Don't say M3/5 because that misses the point for me, these are hot versions of an every day saloon and anything but light at ~1.5 metric tons. Yes they may be capable and fast point to point, yes people say they are real drivers cars and fun, but I doubt they are as involving and fun to drive at every day legal speeds as my Westfield XI. More people need to find out that fast doesn't necessarily equal fun and drivers aids are just another layer separating the driver from the driving.
As I see it, the affordable 2 seater sports car niche that used to be the stomping ground of the kit car has been usurped by the OEMs and now you can get a good Porsche Boxter for the price of a Westfield.
Where I think there may be a hole is in the light, sports, semi practical 4 seater. The classic version would be the Elan+2, the closest you will get now is the RX8 and maybe shortly the GT-86.
The latter and its cousin the BRZ seem to me to be moving away from the wide fat sticky tyres towards harder narrower and ultimately less grippy tyres for more progressive handling (something I'm in favour of).
If the Kit Car industry could produce a 21st Century Elan+2 but with proper rear seats like an RX8, that was cheap to build using as many off the shelf parts as possible, had decent power from something like an Audi 1.8T up front, maybe running an Audi box moved to the rear like the Porsche 924 with torque tube to suit for better weight distribution. Cheap alloy calipers and non vented discs to save unsprung weight, 205 profile off the shelf tyres and wheels to give progressive slides rather than ultimate grip/sudden spin handling. The sort of car I could use every day, fit the wife and kids into with luggage enough for a weekend away, cheap to run and service, fun on the occasional track day.
Don't say M3/5 because that misses the point for me, these are hot versions of an every day saloon and anything but light at ~1.5 metric tons. Yes they may be capable and fast point to point, yes people say they are real drivers cars and fun, but I doubt they are as involving and fun to drive at every day legal speeds as my Westfield XI. More people need to find out that fast doesn't necessarily equal fun and drivers aids are just another layer separating the driver from the driving.
MKnight702 said:
Where I think there may be a hole is in the light, sports, semi practical 4 seater. The classic version would be the Elan+2, the closest you will get now is the RX8 and maybe shortly the GT-86.
More people need to find out that fast doesn't necessarily equal fun and drivers aids are just another layer separating the driver from the driving.
I totally agree about the whole driver aids and integrity of modern cars - there's little rawness in modern motoring cause of the understandable public expectation of better NVH and comfort. More people need to find out that fast doesn't necessarily equal fun and drivers aids are just another layer separating the driver from the driving.
But going for a 2+2 for taking the family out, I'm not sure people would go for it - I don't think I'd want my kids (I don't have any yet thank god) in a lightweight, less than robust car with no ABS, airbags, crumple zones, DSC etc when I could have got all those things for the same money in an RX8.
However the concept could definitely work if it could be done for sub 10k - I thought a modern take on a yank muscle car with compact dimensions and a 3 or 5 series donor would be cool. Squeeze an extra row of seats in for occasional use to justify the purchase price to the wife and could be a winner.
Plus if you go retro on the styling you can get away with small wheels and tyres, manual steering and no other driver aids. OR even cooler, go for an auto, fit a full width bench seat, open top version for summer cruising
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