Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales

[KDIcarmad]

SystemParanoia said:

stumbled across this one





looks cool as f****

Yes the Sub G1 does look good. Sadly a car like this will not save the kit industry. Would fit better on http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
If you want to learn more about this go to www.sub3wheeler.com

Here is a design I love...



The Feora is a 172CC powered 92 mph three wheeler. Yes, read that again, 172CC powered 92 mph three wheeler. It never went into production as it would have been too costly. Would a design like this sell in today kit car market? I fee it could at the right price. Unlike the Sub G1 it would sell to a different buyer, but only at the right price. For more on this and cars like it go to http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... Now what would that right price be? £3000, £6000, £9000 or £14000? You tell me?

Edited by KDIcarmad on Saturday 5th May 11:34

[KDIcarmad]

EddyP said:

Is that not what the Vortex provides to the market?




Kit price £13,666, unique design, superb performance.

Great car! Looks classic and bit Ferrari from some angles and totally different from others! It looks a bit out of place in front of those house, it should be in the south of France surrounded by glamour model driven by a film star or sporting celebrity. A great kit car, this show that there are still people who believe in good design selling.

Now if I was designing a post to get interest in a new Kit Car show I would used the Vortex.

[KDIcarmad]

Dreamspeed said:

Thirdly, and this is just what I’m looking for in a kitcar, I really would like an in-line engine/gearbox set up, as opposed to the usual transverse “front wheel drive” engine layout. You have better weight distribution with this layout, plus a far greater selection of more powerful engines, such as V8’s, plus it’s a little more exotic. But that’s just my personnel preference and does not take away from the Honda/Ford engine/gearbox combo’s in the Vortex GTR, but I’d like to add, if any one reading this has ever tried replacing the clutch or alternator on a Mondeo or Cougar, you will know that these are extremely difficult and costly jobs to do.

A quick comment on this transverse against in-line and it limiting engine size. Lamborghini use a transverse V12 in the Miura. Yes, they now use in-line, just interesting. I do not know why the switched?

[KDIcarmad]

OwenK said:

smash said:

There is - Parallel Designs are STILL working on it - only been about 6 years now I think! they're using Audi power.

Vortex/Phantom was a great car at the time but it looks quite dated to me - the MG Rover design lineage which is plain to see doesn't help IMHO.

Very much looking forward to seeing your creation Dreamspeed based on your comments so far...

MG Rover design? What?

I believe the designer worked for MG/Rover. This design has no connection beyond that and the use of a Rover donor parts. If MG had I wonder if it would have saved them. Add the MG6R4 running gear to the mix and you would have a very interesting car. Any one done a MG6R4 kit! Or a Jaguar XK220 (used the engine from thr MG6R4).

[KDIcarmad]

shunaphil said:

I take everyones point about the IVA , but its not THAT onerous, and we should all be used to having to 'comply' these days with all sorts or rules, so i genuinely don't think this is the major problem. The tuning / bodykit world is thriving for the young lads in their corsas etc, and these are the kit builders of tomorrow, so i think the desire is there, but maybe not the right products.

So it comes down to styling and easy availability of a donor....

Styling - i want something that looks like it was drawn by a mental chimpanzee on crack. I want pop up headlights. I want gullwing doors. Top Gear did a feature a few years ago when they took a variety of modern supercars and a countach to a school. Guess what all the boys crowded round - yes the countach.

Donor - it has to be ford - endless options and easy avilabilty of parts, endless tuning options too.

So from a technical point of view can someone as talented as Stuart Mills take his already tried and tested exo car (like a sonic) and just mould up a wacky body to go over the top? From an engineering point of view is this possible / economic?

Just my two penn'orth.

Agree with you on IVA. As to the mental chimpanzee on crack designing car, yes please. Gullwing/Lambo doors are something I have always wanted on a car. You also commented on the young lads possible interest in kits, well I have got to know some and show them a few kit cars magazines. They dislike most of the exo cars, but loved the Nova. It was based on a design by Dennis Adams called the Prob 15.





Another over top design, that I feel out does the Nova! The Concept Centuar, sorry no pop ups of gullwing doors, its glass door flip open. This was Hillman Imp based. Image an update of this with a small car engine.

[KDIcarmad]

dom9 said:

Ferg said:

I believe GTM have disappointingly given up on the idea of a GRP monocoque and built a skinned spaceframe for the next model, but if it makes it viable I suppose... at least the engine is in the right place.

Hmmm... Will be interested to see this car then, Ferg. Are there any pictures floating about the web?

Not seen any in the magazines yet! Keep looking you may find them. Very sad the GTM new will not be a monocoque. Was the Libra a monocoque? Or the K3-Rossa? Always liked the classic GTM of the 70's-80's. The Rossa and Libra carried on the idea of these.

[KDIcarmad]

Ferg said:

The Libra was a brave, and expensive, project. The masterstroke, I think, was getting Richard Oakes in to style it.

I believe Richard Oaks had been working on the design before offering it to GTM. I agree the new owner failed to look after GTM.

[KDIcarmad]

I have bee reading the postings about Stoneleight. A lot of disappointment. This is or was the big show of the year, clearly if so many are finding it disappointing less people will attend next years. A number of question need asking, are the right people running the show? Is there commitment from the manufactures? Is it to costly to get to, or the entree price to high? Does this bring in new customer for the industry? What would improve this show?

Would a new location for the National Kit Car Motor Show do anything to improve the show?

I notice many of the same comments came up about the Delting show, run by the same company. I ask again are the right people running these shows?

Do we need a new and different show not connected to replace it as the big show of the year?

I put forward the idea of the O2 holding a kit car show, now I put forwards two different locations, Brands Hatch and Lydden hill. The tracks offer the chance to show off the cars in action. What do you think? Would you go to these?

[KDIcarmad]

That's one! How many more are there!

Is it just that happy people don't moan?

[KDIcarmad]

Stuart Mills said:

Fastpedeller said:

The only minus point of the Stoneleigh show was the weather - No organiser can influence that!

May I disagree, the organisers could move the date to the summer, that could have a bearing on weather.
It appears the biggest show of the year for open top cars is in the spring, when it is far more likely to be wet/cold than say Newark in June or Donny early Sept. No guarantees of course.
Anyone feel it may be a good idea to hold one in July Aug, I know the kids are off school, so what, family holidays are popular in July/Aug because of the likely hood of decent weather, we need that period too don't we?.

Looks like I was right and it's only unhappy people who moan and post. I am very glad that many of you enjoy the show. Clearly more people need to hear this and need to be told how good the show was.

I like the idea of a show in July or Aug. A new summer kit car show, would help the whole industry. I personal hope this would be at new location. I would point to this been held in a location near to people. Do any of you know the Bromley Pageant of Motoring? This is held in Norman park, just a few minutes from the centre of Bromley (10 minutes by bus from Bromley South station at the southern end of the high street). With over 3000 classic cars(a few kit cars among that, some very rare ones, I saw a Concept Centuar a few years back and a Adams Probe 2001 a few years before that) this is the biggest one day classic show in the world. This is a great day out, for both car people and none car people. The key to this shows success is its location in Southeast London meaning good public transport, also close to the A2/A20/M25 and a large local population many of whom like cars. By local I mean most of Southeast London and North Kent.

I personal know many from the areas around Bromley, who only decide to go on the day and have only a passing interest in classic cars. These would also go if this was a kit car show, just as a day out. I know of one person who's wife fall in love with a Rochdale Olympic and bought one before the next show. Point made I think. (Question to all manufacture have you considered this show? I understand about 30,000 people went last year! How many went to Detling or Stoneleight?) A quick thought could a kit car show become a part of this? A London Kit car show!! A southeast London kit car show!!!

This year's shows on Sunday 10th June 2012. Which I think shows a kit car show could work in June and draw a lot of people.

Edited by KDIcarmad on Wednesday 16th May 16:23

[KDIcarmad]

I was looking at the posting on Kit car and found this new one on kit car crisis a programe from around 2005/6, that is often re-shown on satellite. I fee the following is a very fair comment on the car and the industry...

200Plus Club said:

its interesting in some ways as it highlighted some of the pitfalls of building a kit, namely choosing the right chassis for the engine etc, and planning ahead to some extent, like when he was having the exhausts made up in situ and access was blocked due to the seats and dash being fitted, the exhaust being one of the last jobs to be made up.

I bet this put a lot of people off kit cars. In the last episode the car broke its chassis! Mainly as it was poorly put together by the owner, not bad design. He fitted a motorbike engine as he intended to race it the RGB series, which had not been used in the car before, main of the problem came from this. There is another programe also on satellite that shows a kit car being build, A Car is Born. A Cobra, this is build by some one who knows what they are do and works.

The real question is why only one series of each, why no follow up with other kits? Or a series on building kits?

Edited by KDIcarmad on Sunday 20th May 14:56

[KDIcarmad]

Steffan said:

I thoroughly enjoyed Stoneleigh it was an excellent show for me.

I saw several new cars including the outstanding MEV X5 variants and the razor three wheeler which is the best three wheeler I have seen this year.


The weather was acceptable, the various displays and exhibitions were good and the Market areas were full of the stalwarts like SVC and Woollies, and a few new suppliers bringing a different slant to the affair.

So another happy Stoneleigh post from me. Roll on the rest, I really do think the Kit Car industry is picking up the pace. Good!

Another happy person! Is the Kit Car industry picking up pace, Or just going down hill?

[KDIcarmad]

There is a topic running on the Fait X1/9. I always feel that the GMT was a kit car X1/9. Funny I learnt the Fiat was insiped by the Unipower GT, a update of the any of these would be a great kit car!!

[KDIcarmad]

Ferg said:

I'd be interested to see some concrete testimony that the X1/9 was inspired by Unipower. I've never heard that before. And if you mean GTM, it pre-dated the Fiat by some while. Interestingly GTM sold a mid-engined road car before Ferrari got 'round to it.

Cannot find the book I read it in. Both the GTM under Cox and Unipower GT were in production in 1967/8. The Autobianchi Bertone Runabout that became the X1/9 was shown in 1969 and the production 1972.



Looking at the Runabout I don't see any styling links. Clearly from the dates it is possible.

[KDIcarmad]

SystemParanoia said:

it will be nice to see some kits designed around these new tax exempt city cars, that can then swap a duratec into it after sva

tax free awesomeness

SystemParanoia said:

following on from my previous comment..

how about something the size of an AZ-1 made from a tax free Aygo/c1/107



turboing the engine in the Aygo/c1/107 earns you about 150bhp

http://www.c1gti.co.uk/

i'd buy it!

I like the city car idea, but feel the choice of AZ-1 could a misstake. The AZ was a Japanese K-class car. A micro car, with about 650cc, other great K-class sports cars are the Honda Beat and Suzuki Cappuccino.

The car you are putting forwards is more of sub-MX5 a modern Sprite/MG Midget. I do question how easy it would to turbo the Aygo/C1/107 engine. Does it really need 150bhp? Could the same performance be reached by the use of good aerodynamics and cleverly using low weight materials?

Why swap to duratec after SVA (now IVA) this is an older design than that used in the Aygo/C1/107. Do you again a lot in that swap? Toyota's KR engine used by these offer a lot, 69kg with all ancillaries, VVT-i with multi-point fuel injection, and has 4 valves per cylinder.

I see this working very well in a kit sports car like the classic GTM coupe. An update of this or any other mid engined mini sports car sounds like a good idea?

[KDIcarmad]

cymtriks said:

KDIcarmad said:

Ferg said:

I'd be interested to see some concrete testimony that the X1/9 was inspired by Unipower. I've never heard that before. And if you mean GTM, it pre-dated the Fiat by some while. Interestingly GTM sold a mid-engined road car before Ferrari got 'round to it.

Cannot find the book I read it in. Both the GTM under Cox and Unipower GT were in production in 1967/8. The Autobianchi Bertone Runabout that became the X1/9 was shown in 1969 and the production 1972.



Looking at the Runabout [/b]I don't see any styling links.[/b] Clearly from the dates it is possible.

That's because I'd guess it isn't true!

Believe it or not a massive company employing thousands of engineers, designers, consultants making concepts year after year might work this one out for themselves!

Or to put it another way, just because X and Y are similar and X came before Y does not mean that the makers of Y copied, or were even aware, of X.

Found the book, it is in a Italian book, call the History of Autobianchi (English version). It state that the idea for a Autobianchi sports model started in 1964 as a Fiat 500 base race car. This failed to go anywhere. The idea was brought back to live in 1966. At that years London motorfair the first prototype Unipower (which had a lift off panel was shown), the UK agent(unnamed) stand for Autobianchis was just a few feet away. Bertone where also there. The book ask, the question did they look at Unipower. It appears that the lift off roof panel my be the link, along with the use of off the shelf parts. Which the Runabout does not have, but is on the X1/9.

A friend of mine who's works for another Italian car designer said that they have photos of the Unipower form events in Italy and Britain around 1967-9 in there collation. The book does not say that the Unipower insiped the Fiat X1/9, just hints that it did. Sorry if I made this sound like a fact! I base it on this book and over stated the case a little.

Edited by KDIcarmad on Wednesday 6th June 15:30

[KDIcarmad]

Just post on the Top Gear DeltaWing tribute, real just a Westfield. Link below..

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

I jokingly asked if this could become an option from Westfield. It has set me wondering what could be done using a Seven as a starting point. Any ideas?

Could a Seven based car ever be race at LeMans? Yes I know it would be very hard to do, but the Cobra was build up on an old chassis from AC. By Cobra I mean Daytona Coupe. A race 7 coupe! By the way never got the whole Corba thing!

[KDIcarmad]

ajprice said:

KDIcarmad said:

Could a Seven based car ever be race at LeMans? Yes I know it would be very hard to do, but the Cobra was build up on an old chassis from AC. By Cobra I mean Daytona Coupe. A race 7 coupe! By the way never got the whole Corba thing!

The Donkervoort D8 took part in the 24hr Dubai race last year, and in European GT4 class racing, against Aston Martin, BMW M3, Porsche 911 etc -
http://www.donkervoort.nl/de/news/follow-the-donke...
http://www.donkervoort.nl/en/donkervoort-racing/do...

A 7 coupe! I know of the Donkervoots, but it is costly, why are not British manufactures take them on? Look at the list of cars they took on Aston Martin, BMW M3 and Porsche 911 with just a clip coupe body at the rear. Design a complete shell with better aerodynamic and you could win GT4. All it needs is a bit of drive.

A British kit car has run at the Le Mans and finished! Yes in 1966 I think, one still holds world records for class performance. I'll name just hint you can still buy them, it FWD and it's big brothers ran at Le Man's in 1990's.

[KDIcarmad]

Stuart Mills said:

Many congratulations to all the kit car firms that took part in the Goodwood Festival of Speed, I was only a visitor so I should slap my own wrists for not displaying BUT; the kit car industry was very well represented by RTR with 5 MEV's, Raw, Hawk, V2, GKD and Dragon plus CKC, the kit car area was very very busy. I know RTR sold a MEVABUSA on Friday, I hope others took deposits too.

Sadly I have only been to the Goodwood Festival of Speed a few time. It is a great event that clearly is a good place to find new kit car customers. Now how many other events are that would also find you new, first time, kit buyers. I know of one in Crystal Palace park.

[KDIcarmad]

Near to where I live a kit car has been delivered. I saw this and spoke to the buyer/owner a nice bloke. This is his first kit car so I whis Jack well with it.

The car is a monocoque 2+2 coupe hatchback with FWD and good aerodynamics. It styling is current and has a hint back to great kit from the 1980 and 1990's. What do you think this use as a donor? Well the donor went out of 15 years ago. The company that built the donor is also history.

Hopfully most of you have named the donor and the kit car. Well its a Rover 100(Metro) and a Midas Cortez 2+2. This shows the problem with kits very well. I will not go into the history of Midas, but ask a simple question why are they still using this old donor car? The roads are full of supermini and city cars that could be used as donor for an updated Midas.

They are also full of sports models called things like GTI, XR, RS and SRI. A modern design in the Midas style coupe using clever aerodynamics with 2+2 seating and good handeling. At around £4-6000 would be a great buy instead of a secondhad hot hatch. Clealy this is a company that in the past took risks, but is not doing so today. They have become comfitable do what they are doing and do not want to take a risk. If I had the money I would buy the company and built that not car, based on a modern city car and sell them against those secondhand GTI, XR and SRI.