Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales

[KDIcarmad]

Thank you for this reply. It does explain why you still use the Rover 100. I agree with you on the K-series engine. As Lotus using Midas for the M100 Elan, did not know this. A bloke near to where I use to work had one, claim great handling, but to big to be real fun.

[KDIcarmad]

Dreams'n'Trikes said:

It's claim that cost, for the buy, has stop the move to a more modern donor feels a little like why change it works. My trike Roar used the sub frame engine from a VW Golf GTi(very sadly sold to fund my Lexus V8 trike). It was a sod to get the pick up points right. I build that in 2000 and it was fun, most car to day have a sub-frame. Looking around I know I could design a new monocoque car round any number of sub-frame out there. In fact I am working on an idea for a trike monocoque and have yet to design on power.

I have read this and feel you are really not saying a lot. The statement that they retained the Rover 100/Metro as donor to keep cost down seem fair. I see not reason to say this is just a cover for doing nothing.

As to the looks of the 2+2 that is personal, I agree that the Gold has more character than the current cars. A sportiness not seen in the 2+2. I know they still sell the Gold as an open 2 seat sports car, but feel that lack the appear of a coupe. I do not understand why Midas looked at a track day car, these have a limited appear and the market is already well catered for. A Mini Marcos would embassies many of these on a track anyway.

A new Midas that was a modern Mini Marcos, with a modern donor, that could become a great race car. I see the Gold as that, was it ever raced? A new Gold! A road car with the heart of racer, a GTi beatter, a car for gentlemen racer who know that a 7's (and other track day cars) are just for boy racers. A road car that really a racer! A car you drive to and form a track day, with a smile.

A 21C Mini Marcos/Midas Gold!

Edited by KDIcarmad on Sunday 8th July 15:59

[KDIcarmad]

Some thing like this you mean. This is by PH's own fuorise and I liked it.

[KDIcarmad]

Like the Westfield design, look's right. Never seen one before did they sell many, if any.

I wonder if there would be a market for a "clip on" Seven hardtop that could fit most of these designs. It was done for the Triumph Spritefire and MG Midget/Austin Healy Sprite in the 1960's/70's.

[KDIcarmad]

qdos said:

Biggest problem doing a top for Sevens is that they are all different. Even ones from the same manufacturer will have the tops of the screens in slightly different places.

Yes, I looked at a few and they are very different. Unknow to me a friend of mine has just bought an old Seven, Its a lot small than most of today cars. He is looking at putting a top on it and has found it is harder than you would think.

[KDIcarmad]

Very interesting as an idea. Would it sell, the Subaru powered Murtaya is very close to a new kit TVR, they have had problems with low sales. The main problem I see with this is the type of people who were TVR's customers in the last few years are not the same as those would buy a kit. If they were the Murtaya would be selling to them.

I bet some will try to copy a TVR in the near future.

Personal I think for a kit car Marcos offers more. Less baggage and lower profile mean lower expectations.

[KDIcarmad]

Dreamspeed said:

KDIcarmad: I’ve discussed the Murtaya poor sales before, with people in my very large circle of car fans, and the underlying problem seems to be why bother with a kit-car, when the Subaru has such a good following of its own? I seem to get the same answer every time, and I have to agree. Most people would rather spend the money on tuning an existing Subaru than build a kit car, also the styling of the Murtaya is not radical enough; the trade-off for a factory finished Subaru, for a hand built kitcar isn’t justified I’m afraid.

It needs to be more radical and/or not Subaru based.

I know someone who owns a P1 Subaru and loves the Murtaya. Mostly for the styling and its use of the Subaru parts. I still believe you could see this as a modern TVR.

If I put TVR back in production I would use a Jaguar (Ford) donor. Keeping it British. Almost as many old jag's many as BMW.

[KDIcarmad]

Dreamspeed said:

I absolutely agree with you, I would 100% prefer the TVR brand to be, once again, British; but although Jaguar do a nice V8, the auto box wouldn’t work. And if memory serves, there aren’t any British in-line manual gearbox’s commonly available to handle big power, and if there were, you’ve got the problem of the engineering cost of mating the two together, which would have to be recouped and would ultimately put the final build price up.


The T5 gearbox in the Cerbera (ford) was pretty well pushed to its limit, and is quite an old box today. I also think 6-speed is the way forward, on a more modern TVR-tribute-kit.

There must be a Ford box that would fit? Not the T5 as it was pushed to its limit. A US gearbox?

[KDIcarmad]

I do not like the Cobras and fail to see why this is said to be the most copied car in world. Will more replicas revive interest and sales?

As to how people see kit cars watch how the Top Gear TV program treats them.
The "I'll get a hammer" or "build by two blokes in a shed" lines. This is how many see kit cars. Changing this needs a lot of work, a few kit cars are outstanding, the Ultima can better most supercars on the Top Gear track. We all know that, most people don't. An Ultima needs to prove this on the show, so I ask you all to sent this question to the Top Gear TV program

"Is the Ultima too fast for you, too fast for the stig! It is a road car not race car, one of Britain fastest! Scared to embarrassed all those so called production supercars with one build in a shed?"


I certain if they get a hundred e-mail like this they let the car round the track.

[KDIcarmad]

Dreamspeed said:

I think the kitcar world needs to move away from body kit fakes, and track day cars with zero practicality, and try and create some new fresh designs, which are well engineered and that appeals to more of the general public.

One line the says it all!

[KDIcarmad]

Dreamspeed said:

Oh, and the reason why it matters what “Joe public” think is this; This is where future customers/enthusiast/friends will come from. If we can all make the kitcar world look more interesting, more people will get involved, which is better for everyone in the long run.

All read this! Now read it again!

“Joe public” could be very important to the kitcar industry.

[KDIcarmad]

Dreamspeed said:

Perhaps a direct copy of an original isn’t the way forward; after all why build a kit, when you could have the original for less?

Maybe a new car, with the essence and design traits of all the old TVR models combined, mated to a bespoke quality chassis and a mix of mechanical parts mentioned by Jagnet?

Ok, I’ve blown the budget, but if there were enough of us to make a team, who would want to be a apart of such a project for the Love and not the money, maybe, just maybe…….. Us Brits could show the “Ruski’s” how it’s done!

Well that sounds like a plan. A new take on a TVR (or a Cobra) for today. Using Jaguar power. If that cannot be done by today kit industry we have a big problem.

All that is need now is to guts, a design and a on win the euro millions lottery to pay for it all.

I remember see a TV program that show TVR used big blocks of foam to design its cars full size. Here is an idea, do the same then paint it, put it on wheels and show it to people! Get some feed back and interest before building it.

[KDIcarmad]

Dreamspeed said:

A Weismann with a TVR badge?.. Yes Please!

No...NO...NO!!!

I drove a Weismann a few years back, it was boring. Look great, a bit Austin Healey. Drives like a saloon from BMW in the late 90's. Not that BMW are bad, just not a real sports car. I know this is a personal thing and I have not drive a TVR, I had sat in one driven by someone else.

[KDIcarmad]

Time for a bit of real world thought.

What will this all cost and what would it sell for?

A £30,000 kit car which, seem to be the target, is costly. I could buy a lot of nice secondhand cars for that. How many will pay this for a kit car? This whole project only works if the TVR name is used. It is that name and what it means that will sell this car. No TVR no reason to paid that high price.

How many of you know what a Hirondel is... It was the most well know fictional car driven by the Saint in the books(others included the Furillac and Desurio). It is described as a heart-stopping red and cream sedan, weighing in at over 5,000 lbs, and requiring a light touch on the gas pedal to get anything over 3 to 4 mpg (and with Simon Templar's driving, you can be sure that those figures were often correct). With eight cylinders, this flamboyant and magnificent monster had a heady top speed and throaty exhausts that could be heard for miles. Now would you pay £30,000 for Hirondel, then build it your self?

[KDIcarmad]

qdos said:

Regards the Kit car scene I very much agree that it offers some amazingly unique vehicles but I have to admit that these days they are getting a bit sameish with the majority being the ubiquitous Seven but there's also some great novel ideas too and fresh designs with the likes of the Razor for example lately. What you won't find is a Ford Focus or a 3 Series BM and personally I'm glad there aren't but I dare say someone out there will eventually suggest a kit to build one.

It is novelty and fresh designs that once drove the kit car industry. I was looking back to the 1980's and notices how few seven style cars were. Instead you had more unique designs that offered different things. The big group of cars were the VW 1505 (never called Beetle) based car, ranging from beach buggy to the Nova.

A quick note of the new TVR, you seem very stuck on this name "Britfire" I think this will not get the main stream media the project needs. A friend of put forward N.B.S. (NEW BRITISH SUPERCAR) with Britfire as the model name which I dislike as much. They made the point that Marcos fits and bring the same attention as TVR with the many stream media. By the way they drive a Bristol 411 and 603, a posh TVR?

[KDIcarmad]

Steffan said:

Ferg said:

Regardless of what people may like to think the '80s were the golden age for kitcars. Originality, not blatant copying. Affordability.

That is my view. Whilst the glorious dreams are enticing on reality affordability is essential to market appeal with Kit Cars.

Were the 80's a golden age or just a few great cars?

A think they were, original designs and affordability make out the best kits of the 80's. At the same time there were some also kits that were close to impossible to build and replica that need a lot of imagination to work out what they were mean to be. I recall a Lamborghini with a lift up roof that like of a Nova that barely looked like the Countach it was meant to be a replicate. Still a gold age.

I believe currently are having a golden age for seven replica and track day cars. It will end! When it does, what will replace them? I hope we see a return to affordable kit car using original design.

[KDIcarmad]

Ferg said:

KDIcarmad said:

Were the 80's a golden age or just a few great cars?

No. Truly a golden age. I'm willing to bet there was NO kit that SOMEONE didn't complete an example of. Kitcars in the 80's were built by people who had at least a modicum of practical skill. Sadly the number of people now who are able or willing to take on anything more than a Westfield style assembly kit are few and far between, it seems.
One of my favourite kits of the 80s was ironically a lookalike. Hayden Davies' Burlington SS, a Morgan-alike. But it required a degree of woodworking skill as well as metal bashing. I think the kitcar industry would be a better place right now if people hadn't started ripping off the Caterham Seven.

I do not disagree with any of this. The last lines say it all and I hope this will change.

[KDIcarmad]

Dreamspeed said:

Yes, the kitcars from the 80’s required more skill to put them together, and today it’s all about a quick, simple build with a lot less skill required.

I think the future for the Kitcar scene is a compromise between the two; we need to gain the styling flare from the 80’s, with the engineering of today.

Oh, the name “BritFire-GTR” is really just a way of labelling what’s missing in the Kitcar scene today, with a touch of good old British tongue in cheek humour.

I think like a lot of people I lack the skill of an 80's home mechanic. I need to days simpler build kits if I am to build a kit car. You still need a lot of skill to undertake a kit car build. Just read about any build, offer part need to made or changed to fit and just finding the right bit can be hard.

I like the name BritFire as a model name, not as a company name. It is a good label, yes a bit tongue in cheek. I can see an over grown boy racer saying come out and look at my TVR BritFire or Marcos BritFire. A friend of mines dad a MR Simon Clay worked for a Lotus dealership in the late 1960's to 1976. He made the point that Lotus dealer put most Elans together for the customer. There are a lot of TVR ex-dealer or just specialist could they do the same for the BritFire? That would make it more salable. What do you think of this idea, personal I think it is good, but they would need to want to do it and make a profit.

[KDIcarmad]

Stuart Mills said:

On the contrary, my MEV MIssile was tested under the MSVA scheme for a fee of only £199 and was easy to pass, costs nothing to tax as it's electric and insurance was only £110 fully comp. It is easy to build a centre steer trike, they don't need to be converted to LHD or RHD! 3 seats maybe. To be MSVAable all 4 wheeled (heavy quadricycles) have to be under 400kgs and below 15kw. 4 wheelers classed as trikes are MSVAable if one axle has wheels no more than 16" apart, then the only limiting factor is weight at 1000kgs max, I call that very flexible

The above was first posted on http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... I feel the last line about 4 wheelers that are classed as trikes under MSVA offers a lot to the kit industry. A number of you have moaned about the IVA costs, this seems away round those cost and still get a good vehicle.

There is a lot you can do within these limits....



Above is the 1996 Peugeot Asphalte. This is a car that 4 wheels with the rear ones set close together. I remember see this at a motor show and it look better than in the pictures. I hope this leads to something...

I believe that early Lomax had 4 wheels on its three wheeler, just turn round the 2CV rear wheels. I wonder as this was post by Stuart Mills if he is working on an idea.

[KDIcarmad]

ajprice said:

Peugeot do like their narrow rear end concepts, they've also made the 20Cup 3 wheeler, and the EX1 4 wheeler EV, and others.



What is the preferred way for power on these if it was a kit? Rear end of a motorbike or front end of a FWD car?

I have seen the 20cup before, but not the EX1 EV. I do see a family link to the Asphalte, liked the way the doors open with the seats in them. As to the FWD or rear wheel, I think this depends on the design and who you are selling it to. Ex bike will want a bike engine, car people a car engine, of course both could drive the front or rear wheels. Car engine I suspect would be more likely to be used if the engine front mounted and bike if mid/rear.