RE: Westfield XTR2
Discussion
You might be right, but if I had the necessary skill to build the XTR2 into something to rival the Radical (in more respects than just build quality) for only £25k I think I'd have found myself a new job!
Admittedly I've never driven either car but I understand there has been a lot of speed engineered into the SR3 and that's what you pay for. F3-like pace for £45k seems like a bargain to me.
My worry about bike engines in a car is that I'm not sure they are designed to drive a much heavier object around at 11,000rpm all day long and I'm not clear if they breathe differently when installed in a car. I'm no techie, it just worries me as a potential owner that the only engines I've seen go pop at track days have been bike engined cars. I'm sure there could be lots of reasons, as I say, I'm an unbeliever at present until I learn a bit more...
Admittedly I've never driven either car but I understand there has been a lot of speed engineered into the SR3 and that's what you pay for. F3-like pace for £45k seems like a bargain to me.
My worry about bike engines in a car is that I'm not sure they are designed to drive a much heavier object around at 11,000rpm all day long and I'm not clear if they breathe differently when installed in a car. I'm no techie, it just worries me as a potential owner that the only engines I've seen go pop at track days have been bike engined cars. I'm sure there could be lots of reasons, as I say, I'm an unbeliever at present until I learn a bit more...
I think you've missed the point Andrew, the Radical is not a kitcar you are paying for labour as part of the purchase price. £45k is a lot for this type of car (which is only really suitable for a track, hey the SVA pack doesn't even have a price on their website yet).
£25k is a lot in kitcar terms but you don't include your labour. My kit took over 300hours to build (I forget exactly cos mine was a long build due to finances: 3 years) at say £20ph thats £6k and at £30ph is £9k. Add the labour and its still a lot less than £45k. The quality of build depends upon time, and patience to get it right. People commented positively on the quality of my build, which made me very proud, but I'm certainly nothing special. From what I can gather the XTR2 demonstrator is a bit rough round the edges (as its the first one) but performance is excellent.
The radical is a fanstastic race car, but thats exactly what it is. Its not a track day car, nor does it have any intentions of being a road car at all. If you want an F3 car for just the track then you can buy 2nd hand F3 cars for a lot less that £45k. IMHO you buy a radical for one reason and that is to race in the radical racing series (excellent racing BTW)
If you want something that is good value for money you can drive to the track and have pleasure on the roads then I would say the Radical wasn't it. Saying that the Westfields IMHO is pricey for what it is as well. Hence my interest in the MK example.
As for bike engines, I accept what you say about the possibility of it going bang. However when you look at the figures of these engines the torque, and power is well within limits of a light weight car. I would say the risk of it going bang was about the same as a standard car engine racing round at 7000rpm all day. The thing I would say was more likely to break was the gearbox as that is designed for a lower weight.
£25k is a lot in kitcar terms but you don't include your labour. My kit took over 300hours to build (I forget exactly cos mine was a long build due to finances: 3 years) at say £20ph thats £6k and at £30ph is £9k. Add the labour and its still a lot less than £45k. The quality of build depends upon time, and patience to get it right. People commented positively on the quality of my build, which made me very proud, but I'm certainly nothing special. From what I can gather the XTR2 demonstrator is a bit rough round the edges (as its the first one) but performance is excellent.
The radical is a fanstastic race car, but thats exactly what it is. Its not a track day car, nor does it have any intentions of being a road car at all. If you want an F3 car for just the track then you can buy 2nd hand F3 cars for a lot less that £45k. IMHO you buy a radical for one reason and that is to race in the radical racing series (excellent racing BTW)
If you want something that is good value for money you can drive to the track and have pleasure on the roads then I would say the Radical wasn't it. Saying that the Westfields IMHO is pricey for what it is as well. Hence my interest in the MK example.
As for bike engines, I accept what you say about the possibility of it going bang. However when you look at the figures of these engines the torque, and power is well within limits of a light weight car. I would say the risk of it going bang was about the same as a standard car engine racing round at 7000rpm all day. The thing I would say was more likely to break was the gearbox as that is designed for a lower weight.
You might be right. I was only speaking from personal preference. I'd only want the car for the track. I have a Superlight R at present and it only goes to and from tracks on a trailer. I'm not terribly mechanically minded. I wouldn't mind a go at some racing. And the 45k price isn't an issue. So, for me, I'd prefer the Radical. Provided I can understand the engine reliability thing a bit more. So I don't think I missed the point really, my point was a personal opinion of what car I'd prefer. But thanks for the thoughts, they are useful to me.
Andrew
Andrew
No problem, I think the "missed point bit" was that the SR3 is a racing car and the westie is a track day car (ie designed for the road and track) so obviously compromises have to be made with softer suspension etc.
One critism of magazines like Evo is often they have comparisons on an uneven playing field. eg the SR3 in the track day car review was £45k compared a honda tyre R at £16k its fairly clear which one is the "better track car" before its starts. The radical is not so hot on taking the family out for the Sunday Shopping trip
The superlight is a cracking car (both on and off the track). The radical racing series is excellent BTW good to watch and I'm sure is fun to drive in. Don't know how much a season would cost you though. A good racing series is also the superlights in which they have amateur right upto serious classes. As you already have one I would look into that as a start of motorsport.
If money wasn't a problem I would put Radical very high on the list for pure track days. If "wishes for horses" though I would love a proper single seater (Formula Ford or similar) to play with. Do they allow them on track days though? or do the cars have to be "road legal"
One critism of magazines like Evo is often they have comparisons on an uneven playing field. eg the SR3 in the track day car review was £45k compared a honda tyre R at £16k its fairly clear which one is the "better track car" before its starts. The radical is not so hot on taking the family out for the Sunday Shopping trip
The superlight is a cracking car (both on and off the track). The radical racing series is excellent BTW good to watch and I'm sure is fun to drive in. Don't know how much a season would cost you though. A good racing series is also the superlights in which they have amateur right upto serious classes. As you already have one I would look into that as a start of motorsport.
If money wasn't a problem I would put Radical very high on the list for pure track days. If "wishes for horses" though I would love a proper single seater (Formula Ford or similar) to play with. Do they allow them on track days though? or do the cars have to be "road legal"
Of course the Radical came first and does look magnificent, but is out of my price range... I've got to say that I'm not tempted by the Westie, it doesn't quite look quality enough for me, but the price is without doubt tempting... These two are the obvious offerings, but what about the ADR1000, it's got the price and the looks.. As featured in issue 2 of Ingear Motorsport.
EPS
EPS
Link for ADR1000 is www.adr-engineering.co.uk very nice looking car. I think its a bit underpowered 95bhp 450kg and again is a pure racing car not road legal. But £6k+ (I would suspect £8k to be honest) to build definately a very nice car.
Do any of these cars have ground effects? Rear diffusers?
I noticed the ADR has a rear diffuser. It's specs look pretty good but did they have to completely copy BMW's edurance racers looks. I was hope ing the ADR would have a bigger engine I guess the 1000 means 1 litre. Power to weight is still impressive so..... The ADR is very interesting thou.
I noticed the ADR has a rear diffuser. It's specs look pretty good but did they have to completely copy BMW's edurance racers looks. I was hope ing the ADR would have a bigger engine I guess the 1000 means 1 litre. Power to weight is still impressive so..... The ADR is very interesting thou.
PSI will be building an ADR this winter (pending some info and a testdrive..) so am also intersted in this discussion. The radicals weigh 450 kg without the driver so the the adr comes in at 360kg plus a lardy driver(100kg) and presto you have a competitive race series(minimum of 450kg car and driver).
The engine issue is moot really as it is only restricted for the race series so if you wanted to plonk in a bigger BMW engine or fit the turbo kit (200hp possible you are free to do so, if you only need a track toy.
Having spent the day at bedford with single seaters and radicals on the track at the same time, being road legal is not that important..
Another thing that appeals to me is that it is drive shaft driven so none of this chain malarky.
The engine issue is moot really as it is only restricted for the race series so if you wanted to plonk in a bigger BMW engine or fit the turbo kit (200hp possible
you are free to do so, if you only need a track toy. Having spent the day at bedford with single seaters and radicals on the track at the same time, being road legal is not that important..
Another thing that appeals to me is that it is drive shaft driven so none of this chain malarky.
Sorry but I'm back again. With a kit cost of around £3500 and on the road at £8-9K the MK Midi has to be a major contender in this contest. It looks, in my opinion, better than the Westfield, but I think both( I may be wrong) are predated by the radical. This is probably the best looking of the bunch, but at what cost? The MK car has 5" GC, which is 2.5" more than my previous SEIW Westy had. The MK website has not been updated as they are more concerned in hitting the deadline for the the last major kitcar show of the season at Donnington, with a fully functional, SVA'd car. Don't take my word for it ring these guys, thier enthusiasm is infectious. This car really should be a runaway success. The ironic thing is that this has possibly put MK in the position that many kitcar Co's find themselves in, ie they need to expand, but should they? And I never mentioned the other car. B
quote:
Smeagol, agree 95 BHP is a bit low, but 450Kg including the driver!! that's quite a serious power to weight ratio!!! What are the Radical and Westie like in this respect?
Radical ranges from 150bhp @ 10,500rpm to 205bhp with Max. Dry Weight 465Kg Makes 328bhp/ton to 440bhp/ton (and they can tune it higher to over 550bhp/ton if required. but I don't know what the reliability would be like with that)
Westfield is 177bhp @ 9800rpm weight 440kg makes 402bhp/ton
The ADR is 95bhp at 450kg makes 211bhp/ton
You are quite right 211bhp/ton is not to be frowned at but when compared to the Westie and Radical it looks underpowered.
The MK midi I have no idea what its power to weight ratio is nor the Corum LM either way they are both very interesting cars to keep a note on. Dangerous is there any chance you could get some photos and details of the SVA car for us? or do we have to wait until September.
ADR dry is 350 so that is 271 per tonne, but like I said the engine will only be a factor if you decide to race it.. throw the turbo kit into it, dial it up and you get 200 which equates to 570 per tonne..(yeehaa..)
What is the price for the MK anyway?
Edited again as I reread the thread. D'oh
"dry" is the car only, no fuel and no driver right?
>> Edited by LRdriver on Tuesday 30th July 22:28
>> Edited by LRdriver on Tuesday 30th July 22:29
What is the price for the MK anyway?
Edited again as I reread the thread. D'oh
"dry" is the car only, no fuel and no driver right?
>> Edited by LRdriver on Tuesday 30th July 22:28
>> Edited by LRdriver on Tuesday 30th July 22:29
I stand corrected you are right 271bhp/ton it is. However the figures I quoted for the others are untouched bike engines. You could tune up the Westie and Radical to go even higher. However as Andrew quite rightly says you have got to consider longevity and reliability of an engine for road/track day use. With a bike engined car I would not want to excessively tune up much beyond the standard. I think a mark up from 95bhp to 200bhp using just a turbo et mods would be catastrophic! Surely a better base would be to use a more powerful engine.
You are right there with the "just start with more power" argument. Having browsed some of the turbo sites I see that 275 in race trim is possible (763bhp/tonne).. serious power..albeit for not very long 
I think the argument is value for money though and the average punter will not be able to push the car all the time hence the enjoyment level will be the same wether he has 320 or 271hp/tonne..
My reason to do this is two-fold, I want to build a car and I want to start racing; the adr1000 and series fits both these criteria..I get to spend winter faffing around with the build and get to race in a series where costs are kept down with regs against engine mods etc..
I think the argument is value for money though and the average punter will not be able to push the car all the time hence the enjoyment level will be the same wether he has 320 or 271hp/tonne..
My reason to do this is two-fold, I want to build a car and I want to start racing; the adr1000 and series fits both these criteria..I get to spend winter faffing around with the build and get to race in a series where costs are kept down with regs against engine mods etc..
Quite agree, if I was to start racing I would do something similar. You want a series where who has the most money is not the deciding factor. Having all the engine limit to 95bhp would also allow close racing as weight differences will not make as big a difference (ie you're multiplying by 95). I presume the 450kg is min. weight limit. Certainly according to the website £12k for the first year (incl. car cost) and £5k for the rest is not bad at all.
A friend and I are 2/3rds through building an XTR2.
Whilst comparisons to the Radical are inevitable, I think it's asking a bit much of the Westfield to compare the 2!
That said, Westfields demo car is about as slow as an XTR2 will go, whereas the Radical is fully loaded with every factory extra.
The Westfield runs a very restrictive catted exhaust, is heavy (about470kg) and doesn't run a front splitter 9it's trimmed back to under the nose to pass SVA.
Apparently Westfield run the car like this as a "worst case your car will be like this" type thing.
I think so far we've probably saved around 40kg over Westfields car - we've got some decent shocks lined up, along with a better exhaust and a tad more power - plus the body on ours is actually going to be straight
With regards to reliability, i don't think ttheres an issue as long as firstly, you use a dry sump system, and secondly, you don't treat it like it's indestructable - it's v v easy to over rev bike engines on the downshift - that's been responsible for quite a few letting go.
But we shall see with ours - hopefully it will all hold together.
Costs so far have been about £20k. This includes the kit with upgraded bushes, rollbars, calipers and spoiler, an 800mile Busa engine, carbon seats, dash and headlight pods, Stack 8103 instruments, upgraded disks all round, race shocks, dry sump kit,lightweight wheels with ACB10s, race exhaust, and minor things like uprated starter gear, billet clutch centre etc.
Only thing to pay for now is painting and a proper carbon splitter, so with a few more unexpected things we reckon £22k all in.
Expensive, but I reckon when it's finished the performance should be adequate
If anyones interested, you can check out our website at
www.xtr2.net
Whilst comparisons to the Radical are inevitable, I think it's asking a bit much of the Westfield to compare the 2!
That said, Westfields demo car is about as slow as an XTR2 will go, whereas the Radical is fully loaded with every factory extra.
The Westfield runs a very restrictive catted exhaust, is heavy (about470kg) and doesn't run a front splitter 9it's trimmed back to under the nose to pass SVA.
Apparently Westfield run the car like this as a "worst case your car will be like this" type thing.
I think so far we've probably saved around 40kg over Westfields car - we've got some decent shocks lined up, along with a better exhaust and a tad more power - plus the body on ours is actually going to be straight
With regards to reliability, i don't think ttheres an issue as long as firstly, you use a dry sump system, and secondly, you don't treat it like it's indestructable - it's v v easy to over rev bike engines on the downshift - that's been responsible for quite a few letting go.
But we shall see with ours - hopefully it will all hold together.
Costs so far have been about £20k. This includes the kit with upgraded bushes, rollbars, calipers and spoiler, an 800mile Busa engine, carbon seats, dash and headlight pods, Stack 8103 instruments, upgraded disks all round, race shocks, dry sump kit,lightweight wheels with ACB10s, race exhaust, and minor things like uprated starter gear, billet clutch centre etc.
Only thing to pay for now is painting and a proper carbon splitter, so with a few more unexpected things we reckon £22k all in.
Expensive, but I reckon when it's finished the performance should be adequate
If anyones interested, you can check out our website at
www.xtr2.net
Hi I'm the chap deadscoob is building the XTR2 with.
The reason there is so much cutting required is the bodyshell comes out of a mold. It just needs trimming so to accomodate the roll-over hoop and a bits around the front of the nose. We also had to cut various semi-circles out of the front part of the body so that it fits nicely round the brackets for the front splitter (None of these are visible).
All light holes (side indicators, rear lights) also needed cutting - I guess this is to allow customers a choice in what lights they use.
It hasn't been too bad - just a little strange deciding where to stop - the last thing we wanted was to take too much away and knacker the entire shell. Still - that bits done now and we'll have the car down of the chassis stands tomorrow and hopefully start installing the engine.
We have to open the engine to install a few beefed up components from TTS (billet clutch centre etc.) to make the clutch a little less snappy (remember its designed to be operated by 2 fingers and not a foot).
We are also about 2 weeks behind on the build diary so I'll try and get that up-to-date by the end of the weekend too.
Ian.
>> Edited by Ian Gratton on Friday 2nd August 19:13
The reason there is so much cutting required is the bodyshell comes out of a mold. It just needs trimming so to accomodate the roll-over hoop and a bits around the front of the nose. We also had to cut various semi-circles out of the front part of the body so that it fits nicely round the brackets for the front splitter (None of these are visible).
All light holes (side indicators, rear lights) also needed cutting - I guess this is to allow customers a choice in what lights they use.
It hasn't been too bad - just a little strange deciding where to stop - the last thing we wanted was to take too much away and knacker the entire shell. Still - that bits done now and we'll have the car down of the chassis stands tomorrow and hopefully start installing the engine.
We have to open the engine to install a few beefed up components from TTS (billet clutch centre etc.) to make the clutch a little less snappy (remember its designed to be operated by 2 fingers and not a foot).
We are also about 2 weeks behind on the build diary so I'll try and get that up-to-date by the end of the weekend too.
Ian.
>> Edited by Ian Gratton on Friday 2nd August 19:13
Gassing Station | Kit Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff