Brexit benefit to kit cars?
Discussion
Equus said:
CanAm said:
Is that Exocet a 3-wheeler? Look at the back end.... I'm using my phone, so apologies if it looks ok full size.
It shouldn't be but I can see what you mean. 
If it's engineered like the Eco-Exo, there's every chance that one has fallen off, but you'd have thought they'd have noticed?
Stuart Mills said:
Oh dear, it looks like 2 wheels have fallen off, there is one missing off the front too. I should have used bigger nails
No, you're OK: the front one just can't be seen because there's something in the way.It's a bit like the perspective thing: you know... small. far away. small. far away.
Funny thing at the back is that it looks like there's daylight showing through where the wheel (and diff) should be. Bad photoshop, perhaps - the cockpit looks like it could be missing a steering wheel, too? Or is lack of a steering wheel a 'safety feature' to prevent the whole deathtrap being driven in the first place?
Stuart Mills said:
Our tow bar supplier includes Exocet as part of their approved vehicle fitment for their Fiesta MK3 units
Which brings us back full circle to my post on Tuesday:Equus said:
What's the approval number, so that I can check?
And how did they manage to add a non-WVTA vehicle to their approval in apparent contravention of 94/20/EC?
ETA for information of others:
Part of the paperwork when applying for type approval of a towbar is that you need to quote the EU type approval references of the vehicles for which you are seeking its approval for use on.
Part of the WVTA approval of the whole vehicle, when you wish to certify it for towing, is a test that simulates 2 million push-pull cycles for its maximum approved towing weight, against the approved mounting points.
Clearly, this is a basic common-sense thing: you can't approve a towbar as being strong enough unless you know that what you're approving it for attachment to is also strong enough.
Edited by Equus on Thursday 5th May 12:16
Equus said:
No, you're OK: the front one just can't be seen because there's something in the way.
It's a bit like the perspective thing: you know... small. far away. small. far away.
Funny thing at the back is that it looks like there's daylight showing through where the wheel (and diff) should be. Bad photoshop, perhaps - the cockpit looks like it could be missing a steering wheel, too? Or is lack of a steering wheel a 'safety feature' to prevent the whole deathtrap being driven in the first place?
The "car" shown below is a mock up, but we all know that, lots of important bits missing It's a bit like the perspective thing: you know... small. far away. small. far away.
Funny thing at the back is that it looks like there's daylight showing through where the wheel (and diff) should be. Bad photoshop, perhaps - the cockpit looks like it could be missing a steering wheel, too? Or is lack of a steering wheel a 'safety feature' to prevent the whole deathtrap being driven in the first place?
New products for the kit car(avan) scene, wayhay![url]
|http://thumbsnap.com/1rGymry8[/urlStuart Mills said:
BOTTOM BALL JOINTS, in very common use is a Maxi ball joint, held down by 2 8mm 8.8 bolts for use on a car that could be say 750kgs with a V8. I have never heard of one failing.
With regards to the Eco-Exo I would prefer to see ball joints secured in the manner they were designed to be. But if one considers the all up weight of the Eco-Exo as being around 240kgs inc driver then the 2 12.9 bolts that look to be either 10mm or 12mm would appear on face value to be adequate although not mechanically keyed in. But then assuming 80kg per corner, that is less than a plastic garden wheel barrow is designed for.
That said there are many other ball joints available on the market that would drop straight on the Eco-Exo so hopefully if it goes back into production this area will be improved. Remember the business is for sale. Contact Qdos cars.
Anyone who feels they can do better should start a kit car business, I recommend it, it's great fun, very rewarding but not always as financially viable as one would have hoped, hence the lack of new products and regular comments that we need more.
I'm glad to read the welded tube is your design and the screwed on ball joint is not. The maxi joint is a proper solution with load shared across 2 bolts. That bodged solution cantilevered off the wishbone puts pretty much all the load through the outer screw. The inner is largely backup for when the outer breaks. Granted the low corner weight might save it but it looks so wrong.With regards to the Eco-Exo I would prefer to see ball joints secured in the manner they were designed to be. But if one considers the all up weight of the Eco-Exo as being around 240kgs inc driver then the 2 12.9 bolts that look to be either 10mm or 12mm would appear on face value to be adequate although not mechanically keyed in. But then assuming 80kg per corner, that is less than a plastic garden wheel barrow is designed for.
That said there are many other ball joints available on the market that would drop straight on the Eco-Exo so hopefully if it goes back into production this area will be improved. Remember the business is for sale. Contact Qdos cars.
Anyone who feels they can do better should start a kit car business, I recommend it, it's great fun, very rewarding but not always as financially viable as one would have hoped, hence the lack of new products and regular comments that we need more.
Isn't it great how topics mutate away from their original purpose.
To all my british friends in the kitcar trade and the automotive business
And to all who it may concern
If you want to keep the NHS please vote for a Brexit
Because the EU is all about privatisation and liberalisation.
If you want to keep your state schools and colleges please vote for a Brexit
Because privatisation of the education system will sooner than later be on the EU agenda
And if you want to keep your agriculture/farms please vote for a Brexit because sooner or later this TTIP or another agreement just like it will put all our European farmers out of business simply because we can not and never will be able to compete with the big american corporations involved in agriculture and farming.
Do not forget EU burocrats are not elected.
And most of them serve on the board of the big boys.
In fact most of them are "Fin de carriere" "end of career" national politicians who have nothing to lose.
Why am I taking these points of view ?
Simply because I have first hand experience of EU working as an entrepreneur and also as a former kitcar builder/importer/exporter.
See Steve Holes excellent book A-Z of kitcars Cursor bottom of page 63
Anyone who wants to discuss these points of view further can always mail me at pierrevervaeke at hotmail.com
And to all who it may concern
If you want to keep the NHS please vote for a Brexit
Because the EU is all about privatisation and liberalisation.
If you want to keep your state schools and colleges please vote for a Brexit
Because privatisation of the education system will sooner than later be on the EU agenda
And if you want to keep your agriculture/farms please vote for a Brexit because sooner or later this TTIP or another agreement just like it will put all our European farmers out of business simply because we can not and never will be able to compete with the big american corporations involved in agriculture and farming.
Do not forget EU burocrats are not elected.
And most of them serve on the board of the big boys.
In fact most of them are "Fin de carriere" "end of career" national politicians who have nothing to lose.
Why am I taking these points of view ?
Simply because I have first hand experience of EU working as an entrepreneur and also as a former kitcar builder/importer/exporter.
See Steve Holes excellent book A-Z of kitcars Cursor bottom of page 63
Anyone who wants to discuss these points of view further can always mail me at pierrevervaeke at hotmail.com
pierrevervaeke said:
And to all who it may concern
If you want to keep the NHS please vote for a Brexit
Because the EU is all about privatisation and liberalisation.
If you want to keep your state schools and colleges please vote for a Brexit
Because privatisation of the education system will sooner than later be on the EU agenda
And if you want to keep your agriculture/farms please vote for a Brexit because sooner or later this TTIP or another agreement just like it will put all our European farmers out of business simply because we can not and never will be able to compete with the big american corporations involved in agriculture and farming.
Pierre,If you want to keep the NHS please vote for a Brexit
Because the EU is all about privatisation and liberalisation.
If you want to keep your state schools and colleges please vote for a Brexit
Because privatisation of the education system will sooner than later be on the EU agenda
And if you want to keep your agriculture/farms please vote for a Brexit because sooner or later this TTIP or another agreement just like it will put all our European farmers out of business simply because we can not and never will be able to compete with the big american corporations involved in agriculture and farming.
All these things are probably already higher on the UK political agenda than they are in Europe as a whole.
Indeed we led the way on most of them, back in the Thatcher era.
Dear Equus
Yes I know all about that because I was living in the UK during the Tatcher years.
And at least that was done by elected politicians.
Not by lobbyists from huge multinationals.
Do you know for example that there are only 80 toxic elements banned in US food.
And more than 1400 in the EU ?
Do you really want to throw away decades of excellent work in the field of food safety for the dividends and profits of american investors and bankers?
Yes I know all about that because I was living in the UK during the Tatcher years.
And at least that was done by elected politicians.
Not by lobbyists from huge multinationals.
Do you know for example that there are only 80 toxic elements banned in US food.
And more than 1400 in the EU ?
Do you really want to throw away decades of excellent work in the field of food safety for the dividends and profits of american investors and bankers?
pierrevervaeke said:
Do you know for example that there are only 80 toxic elements banned in US food.
And more than 1400 in the EU ?
Do you really want to throw away decades of excellent work in the field of food safety for the dividends and profits of american investors and bankers?
Your arguments seem confused. And more than 1400 in the EU ?
Do you really want to throw away decades of excellent work in the field of food safety for the dividends and profits of american investors and bankers?
If we vote to leave the EU, we would automatically abandon the EU food regulations as we go, and whatever regulations replace them would most certainly be subject to extreme lobbying from US interests. Obama has already threatened us with the need to negotiate new trade deals with the US, if we leave, and you can bet your life that they would use our need to get new deals in place as leverage to accept all sorts of other US agendas, including relaxation of food standards to suit them.
If you want us to maintain the EU food standards instead of giving way to the US,the better way would be for us to remain in the EC?
Dear Equus
Sorry if I was not clear.
To the best of my knowledgde the situation is as follows.
If the UK leaves the EU all your laws and byelaws and all already implemented EU rules and regulations will stay exactly the same except if these were revoked by your government.
The strange fact is that the EU would revoke most if not all of its own rules and regulations in the case of food safety by implementing TTIP.
Try to read the leaked documents.
Very worthwile.
And very frightening.
It simply boils down to a complete turnaround of 30 plus years of EU lawmaking.
Lawyers are predicting that it will rain lawsuits by big american multinationals that will sue national goverments to try and eliminiate each and every barrier to their doing business in the EU.
Sorry if I was not clear.
To the best of my knowledgde the situation is as follows.
If the UK leaves the EU all your laws and byelaws and all already implemented EU rules and regulations will stay exactly the same except if these were revoked by your government.
The strange fact is that the EU would revoke most if not all of its own rules and regulations in the case of food safety by implementing TTIP.
Try to read the leaked documents.
Very worthwile.
And very frightening.
It simply boils down to a complete turnaround of 30 plus years of EU lawmaking.
Lawyers are predicting that it will rain lawsuits by big american multinationals that will sue national goverments to try and eliminiate each and every barrier to their doing business in the EU.
pierrevervaeke said:
If the UK leaves the EU all your laws and byelaws and all already implemented EU rules and regulations will stay exactly the same except if these were revoked by your government.
That is my understanding too, but we are no longer bound to keep such laws (and if we do, they become our laws, quite independent of Europe's); and as I said we would come under extreme pressure to change them, as part of the essential price of having workable trade agreements with the US.If we are minded to resist such changes, we are better placed to do so from within the EU.
Dear Equus
Resistance is futile.
The EU blocks every change.
Simply by implementing extremely huge fines.
None of the former eastblock countries want to take in any muslim refugees.
The EU solution 250.000 euros fine for every muslim refugees they refuse to take in.
Better try to deal with the american side.
At least their politicians are duly elected.
The EU bureaucrats are just failed politicians.
Do you want to put your life and your business in the hands of people who don't give a s..t ?
Resistance is futile.
The EU blocks every change.
Simply by implementing extremely huge fines.
None of the former eastblock countries want to take in any muslim refugees.
The EU solution 250.000 euros fine for every muslim refugees they refuse to take in.
Better try to deal with the american side.
At least their politicians are duly elected.
The EU bureaucrats are just failed politicians.
Do you want to put your life and your business in the hands of people who don't give a s..t ?
pierrevervaeke said:
Dear Equus
Resistance is futile.
Dear Pierre,Resistance is futile.
Who says I want to resist?
Note the italics on my previous post.
We are told on an almost daily basis that new and naturally occurring compounds within our foodstuffs are poisonous or carcinogenic.
Although I am in strongly in favour of remaining in the EU, I believe that this is one of the areas where their level of legislation is nonsensical. It is pushing up food prices for little or no measurable benefit to health.
I have seen first hand how inefficient our National Health Service is (my last girlfriend was a nurse). It desperately needs overhauling to bring costs into check, and I am open to all suggestions as to how this might be achieved.
Our education system is similarly flawed, pandering to the lowest common denominator at one end and turning out millions of graduates with devalued, worthless degrees at the other.
Education and Health are separate issues, however, that we must deal with ourselves, and are nothing to do with the EU.
Perhaps if you believe so strongly against the EU, you should concentrate on persuading your own countrymen, and butt the f
k out of a UK decision that is none of your business, particularly since this appears to be the first issue in 4 years of PistonHeads membership upon which you have seen fit to contribute your views?Dear Equus
Let me first apologize if you take offence at my opinion.
Then let me start to say that I am a director of a british company and that we do pay our taxes in the UK.
Secondly I do own a house in the UK.
And thirdly I do spend about 200 days a year in the UK.
And maybe most importantly before the end of the next year I might retire to the UK.
And I am very happy with the NHS.
Simply because it once saved my live.
And regarding education systems I hold the opinion that yours is one of the better ones in the world.
I agree it may depend on where you live and what schools you can afford to pay for.
Having worked for more than 20 years as a mechanic/engineer on the motorcycle GrandPrix scene and for more than 20 years in the automotive sector I have lived and worked in Holland France Germany Italy and Spain and have only one regret in life not being born in the UK.
And there are plenty of experts on here that if I have nothing to say I keep myself to myself.
But this is one issue I feel very strong about.
And rest assured in my own country I support the only political party that wants to leave the EU.
Let me first apologize if you take offence at my opinion.
Then let me start to say that I am a director of a british company and that we do pay our taxes in the UK.
Secondly I do own a house in the UK.
And thirdly I do spend about 200 days a year in the UK.
And maybe most importantly before the end of the next year I might retire to the UK.
And I am very happy with the NHS.
Simply because it once saved my live.
And regarding education systems I hold the opinion that yours is one of the better ones in the world.
I agree it may depend on where you live and what schools you can afford to pay for.
Having worked for more than 20 years as a mechanic/engineer on the motorcycle GrandPrix scene and for more than 20 years in the automotive sector I have lived and worked in Holland France Germany Italy and Spain and have only one regret in life not being born in the UK.
And there are plenty of experts on here that if I have nothing to say I keep myself to myself.
But this is one issue I feel very strong about.
And rest assured in my own country I support the only political party that wants to leave the EU.
I've just had a glance at the NPE section - there are plenty of 'opinions' on the subject of the referendum there.....
Interesting (and I hadn't given it any thought) that very the question of how BREXIT might affect kit cars (or for that matter classic cars - I fall between the two camps) has been raised.....
My own thought is that although the UK joined the Common Market, this has morphed into the European Union and there are serious intentions / agenda / plans / etc for the EU to become a single European Superstate - the United States of Europe (European Army / European Laws etc) in the near future. How will this affect kit cars?
Obviously none of us really know but from the perspective of kit car / 'specials' owners I suppose the answer is who do we want any future kit car legislation to be decided - by the UK Government or the Brussels Parliament?
The kit car 'industry' is probably happier dealing with UK elected MP's rather than faceless EU Bureaucrats. And so I suppose, purely from the perspective of kit cars, BREXIT would be better.
There are, of course, considerations other than our interest in kit cars / 'specials'!
From the perspective of classic/historic cars there was some debate a couple of months back when a European, self created 'organisation' FIVA ( Federation Internationale des Vehicules Anciens.) wanted to standardise the definition of a classic/historic car so that this body could negotiate with the authorities with one voice regarding classic/historic cars. The definition was to be 1) over 30 years old, 2) well maintained and 3) in original condition and 4) not a daily driver.
Now virtually all kit cars would fail to qualify (in original condition....) and as such could be legislated off the road.
This article might be of interest http://www.classicandsportscar.com/news/general-cl...
Interesting (and I hadn't given it any thought) that very the question of how BREXIT might affect kit cars (or for that matter classic cars - I fall between the two camps) has been raised.....
My own thought is that although the UK joined the Common Market, this has morphed into the European Union and there are serious intentions / agenda / plans / etc for the EU to become a single European Superstate - the United States of Europe (European Army / European Laws etc) in the near future. How will this affect kit cars?
Obviously none of us really know but from the perspective of kit car / 'specials' owners I suppose the answer is who do we want any future kit car legislation to be decided - by the UK Government or the Brussels Parliament?
The kit car 'industry' is probably happier dealing with UK elected MP's rather than faceless EU Bureaucrats. And so I suppose, purely from the perspective of kit cars, BREXIT would be better.
There are, of course, considerations other than our interest in kit cars / 'specials'!
From the perspective of classic/historic cars there was some debate a couple of months back when a European, self created 'organisation' FIVA ( Federation Internationale des Vehicules Anciens.) wanted to standardise the definition of a classic/historic car so that this body could negotiate with the authorities with one voice regarding classic/historic cars. The definition was to be 1) over 30 years old, 2) well maintained and 3) in original condition and 4) not a daily driver.
Now virtually all kit cars would fail to qualify (in original condition....) and as such could be legislated off the road.
This article might be of interest http://www.classicandsportscar.com/news/general-cl...
Here some view from Holland:
In Holland we can do the IVA test for a new build kit car.
The test costs 1000 euro (around GBP 750) and is almost identical to the IVA in the UK.
2 differences:
- We have to supply a calculation for the strenght of the fixing poits of the seat belts.
- And we have to apply to emmisions of the year the car is tested. So no looking at the age of the engine and having emissions according this.
So we always need catalytic converters.
This is doable.
But the route IVA test in the UK, then getting an EU registration and importing to Holland is the easiest.
What happens to the route when the UK leaves the EU ?????
The big problem we have overhere is tax: VAT (21%) + BPM (a luxury tax on cars).
This luxury tax is added on all registered cars and is calculated based on emissions.
And this applies on all road registered cars and comes on top of the VAT.
But higher HP means higher tax. And this increses exponentially.
On a Porsche Boxster is about 16.000 to 20.000 euro's of luxury tax!!!! (above the VAT)
And on a Cobra with a big American V8 we are talking more then 30.000 euro's. (above the VAT)
So all cars with nice high HP engines are very,very expensive in Holland.
For example a new Ford Mustang GT:
Holland:
The 2.3 ecoboost starts at Euro 52.800 (around GBP 38.800)
But with a 5.0 V8 engine it starts at euro 115.200 in Holland. (around GBP 84.700 !!!!)
In the UK:
The 2.3 ecoboost starts at GBP 30.995
With the 5.0 V8 it is GBP 34.995, which is around euro 48.000 !!!!!!!!
Several years ago the BPM luxury tax was based on the price of the vehicle (which was OK for a kit car), but is now based on CO2 emission.
And we have to pay a lot of tax to get the vehicle road registered.
This is the problem we face in Holland.
In Holland we can do the IVA test for a new build kit car.
The test costs 1000 euro (around GBP 750) and is almost identical to the IVA in the UK.
2 differences:
- We have to supply a calculation for the strenght of the fixing poits of the seat belts.
- And we have to apply to emmisions of the year the car is tested. So no looking at the age of the engine and having emissions according this.
So we always need catalytic converters.
This is doable.
But the route IVA test in the UK, then getting an EU registration and importing to Holland is the easiest.
What happens to the route when the UK leaves the EU ?????
The big problem we have overhere is tax: VAT (21%) + BPM (a luxury tax on cars).
This luxury tax is added on all registered cars and is calculated based on emissions.
And this applies on all road registered cars and comes on top of the VAT.
But higher HP means higher tax. And this increses exponentially.
On a Porsche Boxster is about 16.000 to 20.000 euro's of luxury tax!!!! (above the VAT)
And on a Cobra with a big American V8 we are talking more then 30.000 euro's. (above the VAT)
So all cars with nice high HP engines are very,very expensive in Holland.
For example a new Ford Mustang GT:
Holland:
The 2.3 ecoboost starts at Euro 52.800 (around GBP 38.800)
But with a 5.0 V8 engine it starts at euro 115.200 in Holland. (around GBP 84.700 !!!!)
In the UK:
The 2.3 ecoboost starts at GBP 30.995
With the 5.0 V8 it is GBP 34.995, which is around euro 48.000 !!!!!!!!
Several years ago the BPM luxury tax was based on the price of the vehicle (which was OK for a kit car), but is now based on CO2 emission.
And we have to pay a lot of tax to get the vehicle road registered.
This is the problem we face in Holland.
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