Dax rush with cossie engine????
Discussion
I expect my cossie engine will need some sump mods to cope with a better handling chasis.
Dry sump it. Especially if you plan on using sticky tyres. I thought I had quite a good baffled and winged sump. I found out rather expensively that I did not. Unfortunately the dry sumps for the Cossie are not cheap. I have a Pace one and all up you're talking over £1000 for the system. It is a bloody good system though (and so it should be).
My dream of sailing past my Ultima in my 10k track toy is drifting away!
Depends on the circuit. Any of the power circuits and the Ultima will leave most things for dead. However best circuits tend to be twisty and in that situation you would easily keep up with if not overall be quicker than the Ultima in that little 150 odd bhp Zetec Sylva.
I honestly don't think you could build a top car around your engine for under £10k. I just don't think it's possible to do it right for that money because you HAVE to make it N/A. Basically your engine is going to cost you almost half your budget dispite the fact you already have it.
Going to Wilcox Competition Engines site and the best bang per buck is the 220 BHP KIT (£1989.52) cosisting of 4 Forged pistons std / o/s, 1Inlet manifold - side draft, 4 Carb spacers alloy, 8 Carb studs, 8 Carb rubber mounts, 2 Webber 45 D.C.O.E, 1 Steel flywheel, 16 Tappet shim conversion, 16 Competition valve springs, 16 Steel valve caps, 1 Head converted to 220 Bhp spec, 2 Camshafts reprofiled.
Add to this the need for the dry sump system at another £1000, 3D ignition and wot not and the price shoots up quite dramatically. It mates to an RS2000 alloy bellhousing which is good as it allow you to bung a nice Quaife Pro box on the back.
At the end of this you will have a superb engine, one of the best you can shoehorn into a 7 chassis. But it'll cost you big money to do it.
Your best bet it to sell your Cossie and start from scratch with something like a 2.0 Vx XE if you want big bhp numbers for sensible money.
Dry sump it. Especially if you plan on using sticky tyres. I thought I had quite a good baffled and winged sump. I found out rather expensively that I did not. Unfortunately the dry sumps for the Cossie are not cheap. I have a Pace one and all up you're talking over £1000 for the system. It is a bloody good system though (and so it should be).
My dream of sailing past my Ultima in my 10k track toy is drifting away!
Depends on the circuit. Any of the power circuits and the Ultima will leave most things for dead. However best circuits tend to be twisty and in that situation you would easily keep up with if not overall be quicker than the Ultima in that little 150 odd bhp Zetec Sylva.
I honestly don't think you could build a top car around your engine for under £10k. I just don't think it's possible to do it right for that money because you HAVE to make it N/A. Basically your engine is going to cost you almost half your budget dispite the fact you already have it.
Going to Wilcox Competition Engines site and the best bang per buck is the 220 BHP KIT (£1989.52) cosisting of 4 Forged pistons std / o/s, 1Inlet manifold - side draft, 4 Carb spacers alloy, 8 Carb studs, 8 Carb rubber mounts, 2 Webber 45 D.C.O.E, 1 Steel flywheel, 16 Tappet shim conversion, 16 Competition valve springs, 16 Steel valve caps, 1 Head converted to 220 Bhp spec, 2 Camshafts reprofiled.
Add to this the need for the dry sump system at another £1000, 3D ignition and wot not and the price shoots up quite dramatically. It mates to an RS2000 alloy bellhousing which is good as it allow you to bung a nice Quaife Pro box on the back.
At the end of this you will have a superb engine, one of the best you can shoehorn into a 7 chassis. But it'll cost you big money to do it.
Your best bet it to sell your Cossie and start from scratch with something like a 2.0 Vx XE if you want big bhp numbers for sensible money.
@Juansolo
The difference in price is true but the power and torque of a Hayabusa is another league.
A Hayabusa has @ 3000 rpm more torque then a R1 at max torque!!!
See:
www.mcnews.com.au/MotorcycleRacing2000/bus_dyno.htm
With a proper exhaust in a car you will have from a standard engine 205Bhp @ 9500 and 125 ft/lbs @ 6,500 rpm. With a 6 speed sequential box. Not bad for a BEC.
With a proper exhaust in a car you will have from a standard engine 205Bhp @ 9500 and 125 ft/lbs @ 6,500 rpm. Not bad for a BEC.
And you always have the option of a 1500cc ugrade with 252bhp @ 9500 and 158 ft/lbs @ 7,000 rpm.
>> Edited by joost on Wednesday 18th September 19:42
The difference in price is true but the power and torque of a Hayabusa is another league.
A Hayabusa has @ 3000 rpm more torque then a R1 at max torque!!!
See:
www.mcnews.com.au/MotorcycleRacing2000/bus_dyno.htm
With a proper exhaust in a car you will have from a standard engine 205Bhp @ 9500 and 125 ft/lbs @ 6,500 rpm. With a 6 speed sequential box. Not bad for a BEC.
With a proper exhaust in a car you will have from a standard engine 205Bhp @ 9500 and 125 ft/lbs @ 6,500 rpm. Not bad for a BEC.
And you always have the option of a 1500cc ugrade with 252bhp @ 9500 and 158 ft/lbs @ 7,000 rpm.
quote:
Hayabusa's are the daddy of bike engines if done properly. Unfortunately doing it properly will cost you in the region of £4000 for the engine once it's been dry sumped and had the relevant bits and pieces strengthend.
The R1 looks pretty special as it seems you only need to do some minor baffling in the sump and odd other bits. It's a lighter engine and tuning it will yield around 175bhp for around £1500-1800.
>> Edited by joost on Wednesday 18th September 19:42
quote:
@Juansolo
The difference in price is true but the power and torque of a Hayabusa is another league.
A Hayabusa has @ 3000 rpm more torque then a R1 at max torque!!!
But you've also got to take into account gearing (i.e. the area under the curve cr*p
). According to the link you posted the busa has a rev limit of 10k rpm while the R1 has 11.5k (1.15x the busa) and the ZX9 has 12k (1.2x the busa). So if we squish the dyno graphs (i.e. make the engines all have a 10k limit) we then get:
Busa Peak Torque: 128.00 @ 7500 rpm
R1 Peak Torque: 110.86 @~7800 rpm
ZX Peak Torque: 104.28 @~7900 rpm
So the busa no longer has more torque at 3k than the peak of either engines
@ben789
The rev limiter of a standard Hayabusa comes in at 11000 rpm. See the text between the 2 tables as shown in the link above.
The ones I drove were remapped with the limiter at 11500.
But what I wanna say is that there is no substitute for size. If you want a BEC you need some cc if you wat to be very quick
The rev limiter of a standard Hayabusa comes in at 11000 rpm. See the text between the 2 tables as shown in the link above.
The ones I drove were remapped with the limiter at 11500.
But what I wanna say is that there is no substitute for size. If you want a BEC you need some cc if you wat to be very quick
@ben789
I think you made a mistake in your calculation.
If the engine revs higher I can compensate the ratio.
I can decrease the revs by the factor 1.15 (R1). You also increased the power with 1.15. So you did both. And that is wrong.
The correct peak figures are (with the rev limiter @ 10000 for the haya)
Haya 128 NM @ 7500
R1 96.4 NM @ 7800
ZX 86.9 NM @ 7900
Quote
But you've also got to take into account gearing (i.e. the area under the curve cr*p ). According to the link you posted the busa has a rev limit of 10k rpm while the R1 has 11.5k (1.15x the busa) and the ZX9 has 12k (1.2x the busa).
So if we squish the dyno graphs (i.e. make the engines all have a 10k limit) we then get:
Busa Peak Torque: 128.00 @ 7500 rpm
R1 Peak Torque: 110.86 @~7800 rpm
ZX Peak Torque: 104.28 @~7900 rpm
So the busa no longer has more torque at 3k than the peak of either engines
>> Edited by joost on Wednesday 18th September 22:53
>> Edited by joost on Wednesday 18th September 22:59
>> Edited by joost on Wednesday 18th September 23:13
I think you made a mistake in your calculation.
If the engine revs higher I can compensate the ratio.
I can decrease the revs by the factor 1.15 (R1). You also increased the power with 1.15. So you did both. And that is wrong.
The correct peak figures are (with the rev limiter @ 10000 for the haya)
Haya 128 NM @ 7500
R1 96.4 NM @ 7800
ZX 86.9 NM @ 7900
Quote
But you've also got to take into account gearing (i.e. the area under the curve cr*p
). According to the link you posted the busa has a rev limit of 10k rpm while the R1 has 11.5k (1.15x the busa) and the ZX9 has 12k (1.2x the busa). So if we squish the dyno graphs (i.e. make the engines all have a 10k limit) we then get:
Busa Peak Torque: 128.00 @ 7500 rpm
R1 Peak Torque: 110.86 @~7800 rpm
ZX Peak Torque: 104.28 @~7900 rpm
So the busa no longer has more torque at 3k than the peak of either engines
>> Edited by joost on Wednesday 18th September 22:53
>> Edited by joost on Wednesday 18th September 22:59
>> Edited by joost on Wednesday 18th September 23:13
My cossie engined Dax seems to have increased its rev range by 4000rpm and lost 250ft/lbs and 160bhp!
Still confused how the Dax handles a turbo busa screamer engine but not a cossie engine of same power....
can only think its the torque thats the problem.
Thanks for the advice, I now have some serious thinking to do, options are:
-Build the Dax cosworth anyway (and maybe regret it)
-Find something else more suitable
-keep the cossie as my track tool (its very high spec)
-buy a bike engined car
-Build another Ultima
-All of the above, and have my wife leave me?
Still confused how the Dax handles a turbo busa screamer engine but not a cossie engine of same power....
can only think its the torque thats the problem.
Thanks for the advice, I now have some serious thinking to do, options are:
-Build the Dax cosworth anyway (and maybe regret it)
-Find something else more suitable
-keep the cossie as my track tool (its very high spec)
-buy a bike engined car
-Build another Ultima
-All of the above, and have my wife leave me?
@ultimandy
First the Dax Hayabusa engine has a much smaller Turbo. So the it is much quicker on boost so you don't have such a turbo lag. You only need 1 atm. Where your Cossie needs at least 1.6 bar.
It also has a 6 speed sequential gearbox with probebly paddles at the steering wheel. So the shifts quicker so the turbo does not get so much time to come off boost.
You also have a much wider rev range. You can drive @4000 rpm without full boost. Try that with a Cosworth Turbo.
>> Edited by joost on Wednesday 18th September 23:22
First the Dax Hayabusa engine has a much smaller Turbo. So the it is much quicker on boost so you don't have such a turbo lag. You only need 1 atm. Where your Cossie needs at least 1.6 bar.
It also has a 6 speed sequential gearbox with probebly paddles at the steering wheel. So the shifts quicker so the turbo does not get so much time to come off boost.
You also have a much wider rev range. You can drive @4000 rpm without full boost. Try that with a Cosworth Turbo.
quote:
Still confused how the Dax handles a turbo busa screamer engine but not a cossie engine of same power....
can only think its the torque thats the problem.
>> Edited by joost on Wednesday 18th September 23:22
As it's all so subjective, the best bit of advise I can give you if you're still undecided is to get down to some trackdays and cadge a lift in the various cars and see which suits you best. When mine is finally running again I'll gladly take you out for a run in it. Get one of the BEC chaps to take you for a spin and the V8 guys and you'll get an idea of what's what.
quote:
As it's all so subjective, the best bit of advise I can give you if you're still undecided is to get down to some trackdays and cadge a lift in the various cars and see which suits you best. When mine is finally running again I'll gladly take you out for a run in it. Get one of the BEC chaps to take you for a spin and the V8 guys and you'll get an idea of what's what.
Actually thats a bloody good idea, I think thats what I will do.
Now I've just got to decide on a date, when there will be suitable machinery there!
Have a look on BookATrack under event bookings. Passengers are free which is handy. Though ignore the Donny date next week that I'm booked on as it's highly unlikely it'll be ready for then. There is no way I'm gonna miss the Oulton date though as it's one of my favorite circuits.
>> Edited by juansolo on Thursday 19th September 09:11
>> Edited by juansolo on Thursday 19th September 09:12
>> Edited by juansolo on Thursday 19th September 09:11
>> Edited by juansolo on Thursday 19th September 09:12
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