New emissions for kit cars consultation
Discussion
andygtt said:
However I was extremely happy to learn that its not actually changing things that much, all they are actually requiring is that a 'kit car' IVA'd after July meet a minimum emissions from 16 YEARS AGO.
That's the situation today - but what if they change it in a few months, and the emissions are a lot less. Keeping it to the age of the engine means it's attainable.MKnight702 said:
This is where I take issue, if I build a Westfield XI which is ultimately a rebodied MG Midget (yes I know it uses a different chassis) I get to keep the original age of the donor MG Midget for registration purposes and yet I would have to comply with current emissions regulations.
Yet if I take the same MG Midget donor and stick it into a brand new Heritage shell on a brand new chassis I would not have to comply with the new emissions regulations. Seems totally illogical and therefore ideal legislation.
What are they hoping to achieve? It's not as though there will be a massive reduction in emissions from these cars is it? Cars sold as new like Caterham will already have to meet the emissions regulations and will be, by far, the more numerous. Cars like the XI or the Suffolk C Type recycle old components and in all probability will have a rebuilt engine that runs far cleaner than the donor did for very few miles per year, so why punish them?
you will get an age-related plate...NOT the reg-date form the donor!!! this means that your v5c says "date of 1st registration -2018" "year of manufacture 1973"Yet if I take the same MG Midget donor and stick it into a brand new Heritage shell on a brand new chassis I would not have to comply with the new emissions regulations. Seems totally illogical and therefore ideal legislation.
What are they hoping to achieve? It's not as though there will be a massive reduction in emissions from these cars is it? Cars sold as new like Caterham will already have to meet the emissions regulations and will be, by far, the more numerous. Cars like the XI or the Suffolk C Type recycle old components and in all probability will have a rebuilt engine that runs far cleaner than the donor did for very few miles per year, so why punish them?
as the reg-date counts outside UK your car will be treated like a 2018 car.
and if the builder of an XI doesnt do the homework from the begining, he might end-up with a 2018 Q-plate anyway....but this is a different story and not part of this thread...in both cases the reg-date in the v5c will be 2018
GinG15 said:
you will get an age-related plate...NOT the reg-date form the donor!!! this means that your v5c says "date of 1st registration -2018" "year of manufacture 1973"
as the reg-date counts outside UK your car will be treated like a 2018 car.
and if the builder of an XI doesnt do the homework from the begining, he might end-up with a 2018 Q-plate anyway....but this is a different story and not part of this thread...in both cases the reg-date in the v5c will be 2018
I know this is what they want to happen, what I don't know is why. Why are they doing their level best to kill off a struggling industry in the UK, what is the up side? Don't give me the usual envirobullsas the reg-date counts outside UK your car will be treated like a 2018 car.
and if the builder of an XI doesnt do the homework from the begining, he might end-up with a 2018 Q-plate anyway....but this is a different story and not part of this thread...in both cases the reg-date in the v5c will be 2018
t answer as the annual emissions from this sector are probably somewhat less than a single double decker bus in London.What next? Compulsory steering wheel and side airbags fitted to a Caterham? Full fluorescent body armour for all cyclists? Yet more 20mph speed limits?
I am fed up with all the constant drip drip nanny state interference.
You forget, as car enthusiasts we are the enemy.
Those people cant see beyond cars being a mere method of transportation. In their eyes, everything about motoring enjoyment is wrong because it is unneccesary.
Its the same kind of morons who protest about race track noise. They wont put up with the arguement that track days help avoid people driving fast on the road. Their view is people shouldnt drive fast full stop. etc etc etc.
Yet the same kind oftards would be up in arms if you tried to ban their favourite past time for no good reason.
Those people cant see beyond cars being a mere method of transportation. In their eyes, everything about motoring enjoyment is wrong because it is unneccesary.
Its the same kind of morons who protest about race track noise. They wont put up with the arguement that track days help avoid people driving fast on the road. Their view is people shouldnt drive fast full stop. etc etc etc.
Yet the same kind of
tards would be up in arms if you tried to ban their favourite past time for no good reason.If we were considered the enemy by the UK establishment we would have the same rules as the rest of Europe, almost completely killing our industry.
And yet we don't and 'our' industry has been moving at a snails pace compared to mainstream manufacturer legislation/emissions.
Lets not forget that for car enthusiasts around Europe, living in the UK with our lenient enthusiast biased rules / legislation is envied by those outside our great country.... and I'm just glad its not actually changing that much lol
And yet we don't and 'our' industry has been moving at a snails pace compared to mainstream manufacturer legislation/emissions.
Lets not forget that for car enthusiasts around Europe, living in the UK with our lenient enthusiast biased rules / legislation is envied by those outside our great country.... and I'm just glad its not actually changing that much lol
Equus said:
My opinion (and experience) is that they're not necessarily as inefficient as many people think, especially in motorway or extra-urban use.
A fair bit of what you lose in swept volume, you gain back in lower average revs. I can drive all day in my big SUV and never see more than 2,500rpm... and most of the time it's cruising at 1500rpm.
Proof of the pudding is that I average low-to-mid 30's mpg in a modern 2 3/4 tonne behemoth, which I'm willing to bet is considerably better than Mistrale's Nazi-Wagon will manage from a 1600cc flat 4 on twin carbs, in car that weighs less than a third as much. Certainly, I never managed much above low 20's mpg in my old Crossflow-and-twin-Webers kitcars, or my Twin-Cam-and-twin-Webers Lotus Elans.
Obviously the combination of a modern, efficient engine that's also smaller capacity and in a light car is the best of all worlds, but I'm afraid I've never managed more than high40's/low-50's mpg even in my Toyota Agyo or Smart Roadster (in fact, the Smart couldn't do better than about 45mpg).... so better, but not dramatically so, when you consider the size and weight difference.
In short, the difference between extremes with modern, efficient engines is much less than the dreadful inefficiency you get with archaic, carburettored engines of any capacity.
I certainly wouldn't resist legislation that limited all new cars to 2 litres, though.
But the lard barges that they are fitted to ensure that as a package their overall fuel efficiency is garbage, no matter how many exhaust treatment systems are fitted.A fair bit of what you lose in swept volume, you gain back in lower average revs. I can drive all day in my big SUV and never see more than 2,500rpm... and most of the time it's cruising at 1500rpm.
Proof of the pudding is that I average low-to-mid 30's mpg in a modern 2 3/4 tonne behemoth, which I'm willing to bet is considerably better than Mistrale's Nazi-Wagon will manage from a 1600cc flat 4 on twin carbs, in car that weighs less than a third as much. Certainly, I never managed much above low 20's mpg in my old Crossflow-and-twin-Webers kitcars, or my Twin-Cam-and-twin-Webers Lotus Elans.
Obviously the combination of a modern, efficient engine that's also smaller capacity and in a light car is the best of all worlds, but I'm afraid I've never managed more than high40's/low-50's mpg even in my Toyota Agyo or Smart Roadster (in fact, the Smart couldn't do better than about 45mpg).... so better, but not dramatically so, when you consider the size and weight difference.
In short, the difference between extremes with modern, efficient engines is much less than the dreadful inefficiency you get with archaic, carburettored engines of any capacity.
I certainly wouldn't resist legislation that limited all new cars to 2 litres, though.
That is the delight of a light weight car, even running on carbs, they are far far more fuel efficient...
Kccv23highliftcam said:
But the lard barges that they are fitted to ensure that as a package their overall fuel efficiency is garbage, no matter how many exhaust treatment systems are fitted.
That is the delight of a light weight car, even running on carbs, they are far far more fuel efficient...
Erm, no, they're no, you know. Certainly not in my experience.That is the delight of a light weight car, even running on carbs, they are far far more fuel efficient...
Like I said, the lard barge gets me mid 30's to the gallon, overall. I've never had a lightweight sportscar on carbs that got better than mid 20's to the gallon.
Equus said:
Erm, no, they're no, you know. Certainly not in my experience.
Like I said, the lard barge gets me mid 30's to the gallon, overall. I've never had a lightweight sportscar on carbs that got better than mid 20's to the gallon.
I think it's time the thread returned to it's original subject/ purpose as you're done here. Like I said, the lard barge gets me mid 30's to the gallon, overall. I've never had a lightweight sportscar on carbs that got better than mid 20's to the gallon.
Kccv23highliftcam said:
I think it's time the thread returned to it's original subject/ purpose as you're done here.
What's wrong? You asked my opinion; didn't like my answer?I think it's time you realised that the thread's original purpose is done: the consultation closed 6 days ago.
Modern production cars have far less drag than almost all Kits... including Ultima's etc... I used to AVERAGE 30mpg in my E36 M3, you wouldn't achieve the better or even the same in a kit with the same injected engine even if it was half the weight... and if you changed it to carbs you would probably struggle to get into the 20's.
Also Kits only carry 2 people and are generally used for pleasure rather than actual needed travel... so claiming the 'more fuel efficient' card is like dowsing yourself in petrol and then having a victory cigar!
Also Kits only carry 2 people and are generally used for pleasure rather than actual needed travel... so claiming the 'more fuel efficient' card is like dowsing yourself in petrol and then having a victory cigar!
andygtt said:
Modern production cars have far less drag than almost all Kits... including Ultima's etc... I used to AVERAGE 30mpg in my E36 M3, you wouldn't achieve the better or even the same in a kit with the same injected engine even if it was half the weight... and if you changed it to carbs you would probably struggle to get into the 20's.
Also Kits only carry 2 people and are generally used for pleasure rather than actual needed travel... so claiming the 'more fuel efficient' card is like dowsing yourself in petrol and then having a victory cigar!
Most production cars (are only used to) carry 1 or 2 persons. Highlighting travel as necessary or not is pretty meaningless. I thought you were (are still?) a kit car enthusiast. If the government were seriously bothered about pollution they'd make us all ride pedal bikes (or at least make them zero VAT as an incentive) I'm convinced the emission argument is all (yet another) means of extracting money from the populace. Also Kits only carry 2 people and are generally used for pleasure rather than actual needed travel... so claiming the 'more fuel efficient' card is like dowsing yourself in petrol and then having a victory cigar!
Fastpedeller said:
Most production cars (are only used to) carry 1 or 2 persons. Highlighting travel as necessary or not is pretty meaningless. I thought you were (are still?) a kit car enthusiast. If the government were seriously bothered about pollution they'd make us all ride pedal bikes (or at least make them zero VAT as an incentive) I'm convinced the emission argument is all (yet another) means of extracting money from the populace.
I am an enthusiast, but the 'establishment' consider cars are for transport not pleasure, being blind to this fact doesn't help your cause.There are far better ways to help the planet IMO, but again being blind to the fact the western 'world' is going green with vehicles also doesn't help.
I think this is being rushed in because of Brexit... as otherwise due to our vastly more lenient car rules we might have had sanctions imposed upon our vehicles traveling to Europe not just for pleasure but for trade as well. I bet this and the MOT changes are specifically to aid the negotiations.... but thats a totally different can of worms.
Yes I did do the online questionnaire and register my concerns about the relevant areas.
andygtt said:
If we were considered the enemy by the UK establishment we would have the same rules as the rest of Europe, almost completely killing our industry.
And yet we don't and 'our' industry has been moving at a snails pace compared to mainstream manufacturer legislation/emissions.
Lets not forget that for car enthusiasts around Europe, living in the UK with our lenient enthusiast biased rules / legislation is envied by those outside our great country.... and I'm just glad its not actually changing that much lol
it has killed a similar industry on other eu-countries....but that industry was ver small compared to all the kit- and special-car manufacturers existing in UK.And yet we don't and 'our' industry has been moving at a snails pace compared to mainstream manufacturer legislation/emissions.
Lets not forget that for car enthusiasts around Europe, living in the UK with our lenient enthusiast biased rules / legislation is envied by those outside our great country.... and I'm just glad its not actually changing that much lol
what it definately needs is: ALL the kit-manufacturers should built a community , so they can speek with 1 voice to the government. might be also a good idea to bring a well know name into this boat, ike ginetta, westfield or caterham.
its time for the kitcar-industry to WAKE-Up....but i think they will miss the boat (again).
GinG15 said:
what it definately needs is: ALL the kit-manufacturers should built a community , so they can speak with 1 voice to the government. might be also a good idea to bring a well know name into this boat, ike ginetta, westfield or caterham.
its time for the kitcar-industry to WAKE-Up....but i think they will miss the boat (again).
As I said over on this thread, we had STATUS for this purpose, and we now have the Niche Vehicle Network (with, as it happens, Ginetta, Westfield and Caterham, plus Ariel and Morgan, as its leading lights).its time for the kitcar-industry to WAKE-Up....but i think they will miss the boat (again).
The NVN is actually funded by the Government (so you can bet your life they will listen to it, if they listen to any such group), and is free to join, yet most kit car manufacturers are too short-sighted and insular to have bothered.
andygtt said:
Modern production cars have far less drag than almost all Kits... including Ultima's etc... I used to AVERAGE 30mpg in my E36 M3, you wouldn't achieve the better or even the same in a kit with the same injected engine even if it was half the weight... and if you changed it to carbs you would probably struggle to get into the 20's.
Also Kits only carry 2 people and are generally used for pleasure rather than actual needed travel... so claiming the 'more fuel efficient' card is like dowsing yourself in petrol and then having a victory cigar!
Sorry - I've got to take issue with this. My car when first built - Fury, 1630 crossflow, twin Dellortos, the lumpiest cam that could be fitted without machining, driven enthusiastically did mid 30s MPG, I ran a spread sheet.Also Kits only carry 2 people and are generally used for pleasure rather than actual needed travel... so claiming the 'more fuel efficient' card is like dowsing yourself in petrol and then having a victory cigar!
I still do & now with an ECU powered, fuel injected Zetec & still driven enthusiastically it does - mid 30s MPG. The difference of course is it now has a lot more performance for it's mid 30s mpg. Drag is really only important at motorway speeds & light throttle, neither of those forms a high proportion of most kit use, certainly not mine.
Fury1630 said:
Drag is really only important at motorway speeds & light throttle, neither of those forms a high proportion of most kit use, certainly not mine.
It's important (but to a lesser extent of course) at lower speeds as well - try throwing a dart without a flight!I get your point though (and agree).
I would like to think that when the UK has finally come out of the EU, and any consultation period, and is a totally free agent, the kit car fanbase might be able to fight back against things like this much more fairly.
I've watched, for many years, the creeping onset of unfair legislation of kit cars. This blatantly goes beyond just safety and into emissions regs set by a series of EU directives, which are unfair and unnecessary to apply to such a small community of motoring enthusiasts. SVA/IVA began with some good safety intervention, and weeded out the cowboy element of garden shed kit "manufacturers" who, in the worst cases, hadn't even properly built their own demonstrators. But, through bureaucratic expediency/laziness, SVA/IVA appears to be a 'one size fits all' for both grey import tintops and kit cars - vehicles which could not possibly be more different. Plus, it appears the government feels under pressure to apply EU emissions regs to IVA across the board indiscriminately, including kit cars.
To me, as an observer of all this over the years, it feels like kit car manufacturers and builders have been powerless to change the direction of this creeping legislation very much. The combined inertia of the DVLA and EU overreach has been too overwhelming. I hope, one day, when we are no longer subject to the EU overriding British law and legislation that we will be able to claw some of this back. We are a nation of car enthusiasts and deserve to make our own way on such matters.
I've watched, for many years, the creeping onset of unfair legislation of kit cars. This blatantly goes beyond just safety and into emissions regs set by a series of EU directives, which are unfair and unnecessary to apply to such a small community of motoring enthusiasts. SVA/IVA began with some good safety intervention, and weeded out the cowboy element of garden shed kit "manufacturers" who, in the worst cases, hadn't even properly built their own demonstrators. But, through bureaucratic expediency/laziness, SVA/IVA appears to be a 'one size fits all' for both grey import tintops and kit cars - vehicles which could not possibly be more different. Plus, it appears the government feels under pressure to apply EU emissions regs to IVA across the board indiscriminately, including kit cars.
To me, as an observer of all this over the years, it feels like kit car manufacturers and builders have been powerless to change the direction of this creeping legislation very much. The combined inertia of the DVLA and EU overreach has been too overwhelming. I hope, one day, when we are no longer subject to the EU overriding British law and legislation that we will be able to claw some of this back. We are a nation of car enthusiasts and deserve to make our own way on such matters.
Edited by Johnny5hoods on Friday 16th March 12:23
Johnny5hoods said:
To me, as an observer of all this over the years, it feels like kit car manufacturers and builders have been powerless to change the direction of this creeping legislation very much. The combined inertia of the DVLA and EU overreach has been too overwhelming. I hope, one day, when we are no longer subject to the EU overriding British law and legislation that we will be able to claw some of this back. We are a nation of car enthusiasts and deserve to make our own way on such matters.
Civil Servants giving up power and control over a motoring minority? Oh how I laughed.Edited by Johnny5hoods on Friday 16th March 12:23
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