New emissions for kit cars consultation
Discussion
MKnight702 said:
Johnny5hoods said:
To me, as an observer of all this over the years, it feels like kit car manufacturers and builders have been powerless to change the direction of this creeping legislation very much. The combined inertia of the DVLA and EU overreach has been too overwhelming. I hope, one day, when we are no longer subject to the EU overriding British law and legislation that we will be able to claw some of this back. We are a nation of car enthusiasts and deserve to make our own way on such matters.
Civil Servants giving up power and control over a motoring minority? Oh how I laughed.The proposal is that we continue to align ourselves with any future EU legislation, so the likely outcome is that we will have to toe the line with future EU regulation, without having any influence over how it is formulated.
Equus said:
The proposal is that we continue to align ourselves with any future EU legislation, so the likely outcome is that we will have to toe the line with future EU regulation, without having any influence over how it is formulated.
Well, I'll just keep smiling and still buy bent bananas - to hell with the EU 
Equus ....... I think you make a very valid point. I sadly believe that if we eventually are no longer a member state of the EU, that everything we manufacture (if we want to sell it to an EU country) and I don't just mean cars, will have to comply with rules and legislation that we have no part in the decision making process. This will have all the consequences that inevitably follows on from such things.
Those of you that have been following this thread with regard to the emissions consultation that has now ended and took the view that there was no point in responding ( head in the sand ), may like (NOT) to know that the end result of the consultation that has resulted in the exemption of vehicles built before 1977 from MOT has had some nasty spin offs. The result of which is that our friends in the classic commercial vehicle hobby have now found themselves in the situation that commercial vehicles over 3.5 tonne built after 1977 have now got to undergo a Plating test even though (dependent on Class) they were not subject to the test in their working life.
In addition, steam powered vehicles have been exempt from MOT and Road Tax, however this exemption now only applies to vehicles over 3.5 tonne. When it comes to steam cars (typically well under 3.5 tonne) ...... if they were built before 1960 they will VHI and therefore MOT and Road Tax exempt, BUT if they were built later (there are replica steam cars similar to kit cars) the exemption doesn't apply. Therefore they become subject to MOT ! Steam cars however are outside the scope of IVA and MOT testing ...... so pick the bones out of that mess.
Is it time to leave the planet !!!!!
Those of you that have been following this thread with regard to the emissions consultation that has now ended and took the view that there was no point in responding ( head in the sand ), may like (NOT) to know that the end result of the consultation that has resulted in the exemption of vehicles built before 1977 from MOT has had some nasty spin offs. The result of which is that our friends in the classic commercial vehicle hobby have now found themselves in the situation that commercial vehicles over 3.5 tonne built after 1977 have now got to undergo a Plating test even though (dependent on Class) they were not subject to the test in their working life.
In addition, steam powered vehicles have been exempt from MOT and Road Tax, however this exemption now only applies to vehicles over 3.5 tonne. When it comes to steam cars (typically well under 3.5 tonne) ...... if they were built before 1960 they will VHI and therefore MOT and Road Tax exempt, BUT if they were built later (there are replica steam cars similar to kit cars) the exemption doesn't apply. Therefore they become subject to MOT ! Steam cars however are outside the scope of IVA and MOT testing ...... so pick the bones out of that mess.
Is it time to leave the planet !!!!!
Hi Fastpedeller ......... I'm talking about the consultation that has recently ended and brings about changes to the MOT testing requirements as from 20th May this year. This has made cars registered before 1977 both MOT and Road Tax exempt. BUT with clauses that will make life very difficult for some people.
The consultation regarding emissions has now closed and it is expected that what ever changes that introduces may come into force in September.
To make life difficult there has 3 consultations in recent times ........ it's all becoming hard work to keep up!
The consultation regarding emissions has now closed and it is expected that what ever changes that introduces may come into force in September.
To make life difficult there has 3 consultations in recent times ........ it's all becoming hard work to keep up!
We are now constantly being asked what effect the proposed new rules will have on our MX5 based kits. The answer is non but the internet is full of negativity which sadly will be impacting on sales of kits that will not be effected by new emission standards.
Joe public may run and hide when they read all the forums content re hot rods and V8 kit cars, sad thing is if "Joe" was going for say a GBS MX5 based kit then he would not be effected even if the proposals are introduced as donors have CAT's and will pass an MOT.
The cause of all this is due to wording that kits may have to meet the same standards as new cars.
Absolutely correct but the wording didn't make it obvious that new cars ONLY have to pass the basic MOT emission test once they are 3 years old.
The sooner this is nailed the better for all concerned so we can move on. I just hope a transitional period is allowed if non CAT cars are outlawed.
Joe public may run and hide when they read all the forums content re hot rods and V8 kit cars, sad thing is if "Joe" was going for say a GBS MX5 based kit then he would not be effected even if the proposals are introduced as donors have CAT's and will pass an MOT.
The cause of all this is due to wording that kits may have to meet the same standards as new cars.
Absolutely correct but the wording didn't make it obvious that new cars ONLY have to pass the basic MOT emission test once they are 3 years old.
The sooner this is nailed the better for all concerned so we can move on. I just hope a transitional period is allowed if non CAT cars are outlawed.
Edited by Stuart Mills on Friday 6th April 16:35
New IVA manual is available, in draft form at the moment
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/iva-man...
I wrote the following for GT40 owners so it won't be quite the same for other kit car builders....but most will still.
02B Metered Emissions
Layout and minor wording changes - No actual changes
08 Indirect Vision
New note "There is no requirement for seatbelts to be worn when assessing the adjustability of any mirror."
Change to required standard 11. Windows may be open
09B Service Brake Control / Mechanical Components
Updated note 1 - Maximum of 500N
New standard "The service braking system must act on braking surfaces permanently connected to the wheels through components of adequate strength."
09E Brake Performance
Not applicable to us (new note which states "Where a mass produced vehicle, built by a major manufacturer, has not had its braking system modified in any way this part of the examination can be by-passed.")
16 Exterior Projections
Not applicable to us
new note which states "RS2 will apply to side glazing fitted to M1 vehicles converted from N1, pay particular attention to cut out sliding windows, which are recessed more than 5mm from the body line but are still contactable with the 100mm half sphere."
19 Seat Belt Anchorages
Added "Spreader plates, where fitted, must be of adequate size and radiused to 2.5mm" to required standard 3
Added additional paragraph to the method of inspection "Where spreader plates are fitted to seat or seat belt mountings they must be of adequate size and radiused to a minimum of 2.5mm, the radius must be presented towards the floor of the vehicle to avoid tearing the floor in the event of a frontal impact."
22 End-Outline, position (Side), Stop, Side Marker & Daytime Running Lamps
The revision record says "Clarify stop lamp requirements"...but I can't find any changes!
29 Reversing Lamps
No change to us.
45 Safety Glass
No change to us.
- General Construction
New required standard "All aperture covers (other than doors) including tailgates, boot and bonnet lids must be capable of being securely latched in the fully closed position."
02 Emissions
Not applicable to us
Realigned method of inspection.
Added ADR 79/03 & 79/04 for Euro 5.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/iva-man...
I wrote the following for GT40 owners so it won't be quite the same for other kit car builders....but most will still.
02B Metered Emissions
Layout and minor wording changes - No actual changes
08 Indirect Vision
New note "There is no requirement for seatbelts to be worn when assessing the adjustability of any mirror."
Change to required standard 11. Windows may be open
09B Service Brake Control / Mechanical Components
Updated note 1 - Maximum of 500N
New standard "The service braking system must act on braking surfaces permanently connected to the wheels through components of adequate strength."
09E Brake Performance
Not applicable to us (new note which states "Where a mass produced vehicle, built by a major manufacturer, has not had its braking system modified in any way this part of the examination can be by-passed.")
16 Exterior Projections
Not applicable to us
new note which states "RS2 will apply to side glazing fitted to M1 vehicles converted from N1, pay particular attention to cut out sliding windows, which are recessed more than 5mm from the body line but are still contactable with the 100mm half sphere."
19 Seat Belt Anchorages
Added "Spreader plates, where fitted, must be of adequate size and radiused to 2.5mm" to required standard 3
Added additional paragraph to the method of inspection "Where spreader plates are fitted to seat or seat belt mountings they must be of adequate size and radiused to a minimum of 2.5mm, the radius must be presented towards the floor of the vehicle to avoid tearing the floor in the event of a frontal impact."
22 End-Outline, position (Side), Stop, Side Marker & Daytime Running Lamps
The revision record says "Clarify stop lamp requirements"...but I can't find any changes!
29 Reversing Lamps
No change to us.
45 Safety Glass
No change to us.
- General Construction
New required standard "All aperture covers (other than doors) including tailgates, boot and bonnet lids must be capable of being securely latched in the fully closed position."
02 Emissions
Not applicable to us
Realigned method of inspection.
Added ADR 79/03 & 79/04 for Euro 5.
My view on the emissions saga is as follows:
There are some 25 million vehicles registered for road use in this country, averaging 12000 per annum, total mileage = 300,000,000,000 miles.
A guesstimate of 50,000 kit cars exist for road use.
This represents a percentage of 0.002% of kit cars to mass produced cars, which are used approximately for 3000 miles over 6 months, total mileage = 150,000,000 miles.
This represents a percentage mileage of 0.0005% total miles travelled by the kit car fraternity by comparison.
So, by my reasoning, it will be a very long time indeed before existing kit cars wreck the planet, so, quite simply ministers, if you must rewrite the qualification for the kit / specialist car industry, arrange it so that those in mid build have a two year lead time to sort their cars out and commence your new legislation at September 2020.
There are some 25 million vehicles registered for road use in this country, averaging 12000 per annum, total mileage = 300,000,000,000 miles.
A guesstimate of 50,000 kit cars exist for road use.
This represents a percentage of 0.002% of kit cars to mass produced cars, which are used approximately for 3000 miles over 6 months, total mileage = 150,000,000 miles.
This represents a percentage mileage of 0.0005% total miles travelled by the kit car fraternity by comparison.
So, by my reasoning, it will be a very long time indeed before existing kit cars wreck the planet, so, quite simply ministers, if you must rewrite the qualification for the kit / specialist car industry, arrange it so that those in mid build have a two year lead time to sort their cars out and commence your new legislation at September 2020.
the politics dont care about such niche-cars....laws are made to fullfill the demands of the big-players.
even UK is leaving EU, people / industry wont get rid of the EU´s laws and restrictions.
UK cannot isolate itselves from the rest of the world...this would end in a disaster and massive financal problems for the UK government, as well as for the people.
what i dont understand is: why people in UK still think, that with leaving the EU they get rid of their regulations? thats an utopian fallacy.
if somebody has voted for leaving the EU, exactly for that reason, he is barking up the wrong tree.
even UK is leaving EU, people / industry wont get rid of the EU´s laws and restrictions.
UK cannot isolate itselves from the rest of the world...this would end in a disaster and massive financal problems for the UK government, as well as for the people.
what i dont understand is: why people in UK still think, that with leaving the EU they get rid of their regulations? thats an utopian fallacy.
if somebody has voted for leaving the EU, exactly for that reason, he is barking up the wrong tree.
^^^ This.
Leaving the EU will just mean that we have to comply with the regulations, without getting any say in how they are formulated. As mentioned several times above, that was another key question set by the consultation that this thread is about.
Or howabout lipstick pink Nissan Micra Convertibles: my sister is the only person I know in the whole UK who drives one, and she only does about 5K miles per year, so surely she deserves specific legislation tailored to her needs?
Leaving the EU will just mean that we have to comply with the regulations, without getting any say in how they are formulated. As mentioned several times above, that was another key question set by the consultation that this thread is about.
cokerg said:
So, by my reasoning, it will be a very long time indeed before existing kit cars wreck the planet, so, quite simply ministers, if you must rewrite the qualification for the kit / specialist car industry
Cars with V12's are even rarer. so by your reasoning, MP's should be re-writing the legislation to exclude those from any sort of emissions testing.Or howabout lipstick pink Nissan Micra Convertibles: my sister is the only person I know in the whole UK who drives one, and she only does about 5K miles per year, so surely she deserves specific legislation tailored to her needs?
Hi Steve D (people will get confused and think we are the same person !!!!).
The initial belief was that the result of the recent consultation would bring about changes (if any) around September this year. So far I have seen no evidence of any conclusions. I know I'm not the only one tracking this, so if I hear anything I will post it on this thread.
It's interesting (in a negative way) that there has been virtually no coverage about this latest consultation in all the well known car mags.
Are you going to Stoneleigh ........ I like the look of your Ultima.
The initial belief was that the result of the recent consultation would bring about changes (if any) around September this year. So far I have seen no evidence of any conclusions. I know I'm not the only one tracking this, so if I hear anything I will post it on this thread.
It's interesting (in a negative way) that there has been virtually no coverage about this latest consultation in all the well known car mags.
Are you going to Stoneleigh ........ I like the look of your Ultima.
Steve Dean said:
Hi Steve D (people will get confused and think we are the same person !!!!).
The initial belief was that the result of the recent consultation would bring about changes (if any) around September this year. So far I have seen no evidence of any conclusions. I know I'm not the only one tracking this, so if I hear anything I will post it on this thread.
It's interesting (in a negative way) that there has been virtually no coverage about this latest consultation in all the well known car mags.
Are you going to Stoneleigh ........ I like the look of your Ultima.
Plan to be there but not in the Ultima...It's not on the road at present...too many cars not enough time.The initial belief was that the result of the recent consultation would bring about changes (if any) around September this year. So far I have seen no evidence of any conclusions. I know I'm not the only one tracking this, so if I hear anything I will post it on this thread.
It's interesting (in a negative way) that there has been virtually no coverage about this latest consultation in all the well known car mags.
Are you going to Stoneleigh ........ I like the look of your Ultima.
Steve
This appeared today on the Complete Kit Car magazine facebook page.....
We've just received a call from the Department for Transport confirming that they will not proceed with the part of the emissions regulation proposals that affected kit cars. There were over 2000 responses to the consultation.
A Department for Transport spokesperson said:
“The UK’s specialist vehicle industry is thriving – it creates jobs and gives enjoyment to many, with products exported all over the world.
“We are grateful to the over 2000 kit and replica car enthusiasts, manufacturers and suppliers who took part in this consultation. Following their responses, we have decided that there will be no changes to the current MOT–style testing of kit car emissions.”
We've just received a call from the Department for Transport confirming that they will not proceed with the part of the emissions regulation proposals that affected kit cars. There were over 2000 responses to the consultation.
A Department for Transport spokesperson said:
“The UK’s specialist vehicle industry is thriving – it creates jobs and gives enjoyment to many, with products exported all over the world.
“We are grateful to the over 2000 kit and replica car enthusiasts, manufacturers and suppliers who took part in this consultation. Following their responses, we have decided that there will be no changes to the current MOT–style testing of kit car emissions.”
Fastpedeller said:
This appeared today on the Complete Kit Car magazine facebook page.....
We've just received a call from the Department for Transport confirming that they will not proceed with the part of the emissions regulation proposals that affected kit cars. There were over 2000 responses to the consultation.
A Department for Transport spokesperson said:
“The UK’s specialist vehicle industry is thriving – it creates jobs and gives enjoyment to many, with products exported all over the world.
“We are grateful to the over 2000 kit and replica car enthusiasts, manufacturers and suppliers who took part in this consultation. Following their responses, we have decided that there will be no changes to the current MOT–style testing of kit car emissions.”
Ditto to previous post - great news. Thanks for posting.We've just received a call from the Department for Transport confirming that they will not proceed with the part of the emissions regulation proposals that affected kit cars. There were over 2000 responses to the consultation.
A Department for Transport spokesperson said:
“The UK’s specialist vehicle industry is thriving – it creates jobs and gives enjoyment to many, with products exported all over the world.
“We are grateful to the over 2000 kit and replica car enthusiasts, manufacturers and suppliers who took part in this consultation. Following their responses, we have decided that there will be no changes to the current MOT–style testing of kit car emissions.”
It just goes to show that us kit car / replica fans MUST pay attention...... there are those who would legislate us out of existence.
2000 of us responded to the proposals: United we stand divided we fall.
^^ it also goes to show that the politicians & civil servants will do what they think is best, it's up to the electorate (us) to give them an opinion if we don't agree. It's not as simple as "if you don't vote, don't b
h", sometimes you have to let them know your opinion BETWEEN elections.
h", sometimes you have to let them know your opinion BETWEEN elections.
Feeling a little smug now.
It was an uphill struggle, the negativity encountered was not helpful but in the end those 2000 submissions did help as did the involvement of publications and manufacturers.
I hope if we have to respond again in the future that the response will be supportive and overwhelming.
It was an uphill struggle, the negativity encountered was not helpful but in the end those 2000 submissions did help as did the involvement of publications and manufacturers.
I hope if we have to respond again in the future that the response will be supportive and overwhelming.
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