Whats happened to the Kit car world in the past 8 years?
Discussion
Back in 2010 i started a build of a Dax Rush V8
2011 i Sold it needing the money to protect a bsuiness investment
Roll forward to today and i've started looking at kits
From what i can see at the moment the kit car industry seems to have been decimated- am i missing something? very sad if it has!
Who still builds good cobras? 7alikes?
2011 i Sold it needing the money to protect a bsuiness investment
Roll forward to today and i've started looking at kits
From what i can see at the moment the kit car industry seems to have been decimated- am i missing something? very sad if it has!
Who still builds good cobras? 7alikes?
PugwasHDJ80 said:
am i missing something?
Nope, you're not missing anything: the industry is f
ked. SVA was the thin end of the wedge, and IVA was somebody hitting the wedge with a bloody great lumphammer.
Added to which, the mainstream sports car market has been relatively bouyant, thus generating lots of second-hand options that the kit industry simply can't compete with (compared to the heyday of the kit market, in the 70's and '80's, when mass-produced open 2-seaters had almost been killed by the threat of US legislation that never actually materialised).
Still plenty of options for Sevens and fake snakes, though, if you shop around - it's the market for original designs that has suffered worst.
Personally, I think SVA was, on the whole, a good thing for standards in the industry. There were some truly dangerous cars about before that came in, both fundamentally flawed designs and badly built good designs. The MOT test didn’t always weed them out due to the way it works.
It saw the end of some of the worst products on the market, which was no bad thing.
Quite agree that the industry has dramatically contracted though, but I don’t think that can all be laid at the door of regulation. As said, there have been some very good sports cars around in recent years which has had an impact.
Still some good kits out there but no denying they are getting more and more expensive on average. There are still some good, sensibly priced, options as well as the increasingly impressive and expensive ones.
Just my opinions, YMMV
It saw the end of some of the worst products on the market, which was no bad thing.
Quite agree that the industry has dramatically contracted though, but I don’t think that can all be laid at the door of regulation. As said, there have been some very good sports cars around in recent years which has had an impact.
Still some good kits out there but no denying they are getting more and more expensive on average. There are still some good, sensibly priced, options as well as the increasingly impressive and expensive ones.
Just my opinions, YMMV
downsman said:
I'm sure the kit car market has been affected by the fact that large numbers of the younger population have never held a spanner let alone maintained their own car. If you can't change your oil and brake pads, it must be daunting to try building a car.
That’s a very good point. We’ve had a couple of generations now that are led to believe you can do anything by double-clicking a mouse. Practical tasks seem to be very unfashionable at present. I agree. Added to the fact that "modern" classics of the 80's and 90's are surviving in far greater numbers than cars of the 60's and 70's due to much better build quality/rust protection, so there are more classics to choose from.
I am 42, consider myself very practical (compared to most of my friends that haven't got a clue about a car) but I would still be daunted by the idea of building a kit car from scratch. Though I hope to do it one day.
I am 42, consider myself very practical (compared to most of my friends that haven't got a clue about a car) but I would still be daunted by the idea of building a kit car from scratch. Though I hope to do it one day.
agree with the above, plus
- most kits are ugly. track ability does not trump having a beauty on the drive.
- NVH = most are noisy, cramped, creaky, rattly, not pleasant places to be - compared with a Passat, or even an MX5
- dealer support is non-existant
- no finance deals
the reality is that car ownership has evolved and the kit world hasnt followed the trend, so it shrank. There's always the odd few, but generally the market provides for the 99.9%.
but those parts that do work are doing really well. eg classic shapes on modern mechanicals...some of those Ferrary 250-on-an-MX5 are selling for good money once built. Some of the track cars, skeletons and whatnot are great cos mainstream could never make owt so raw. There are some niches, butt hey are soooo small!
..and I've always thought a governing body.would be helpful -a voice for kit manufacturers, rather than all acting individually. kinda like what RIBA is for architects - or the FA is for football.
- most kits are ugly. track ability does not trump having a beauty on the drive.
- NVH = most are noisy, cramped, creaky, rattly, not pleasant places to be - compared with a Passat, or even an MX5
- dealer support is non-existant
- no finance deals
the reality is that car ownership has evolved and the kit world hasnt followed the trend, so it shrank. There's always the odd few, but generally the market provides for the 99.9%.
but those parts that do work are doing really well. eg classic shapes on modern mechanicals...some of those Ferrary 250-on-an-MX5 are selling for good money once built. Some of the track cars, skeletons and whatnot are great cos mainstream could never make owt so raw. There are some niches, butt hey are soooo small!
..and I've always thought a governing body.would be helpful -a voice for kit manufacturers, rather than all acting individually. kinda like what RIBA is for architects - or the FA is for football.
The young people aspect is big. Its not that they are all snowflakes and wont get fingers dirty - Im sure plenty are - but the main issue is insurance.
For anyone under 21 its massively cheaper to go and get a financed whip with free insurance for 3 years than it is to buy and run a banger.
For anyone under 21 its massively cheaper to go and get a financed whip with free insurance for 3 years than it is to buy and run a banger.
RedAndy said:
agree with the above, plus
- most kits are ugly. track ability does not trump having a beauty on the drive.
- NVH = most are noisy, cramped, creaky, rattly, not pleasant places to be - compared with a Passat, or even an MX5
- dealer support is non-existant
- no finance deals
the reality is that car ownership has evolved and the kit world hasn't followed the trend, so it shrank. There's always the odd few, but generally the market provides for the 99.9%.
This is certainly true. In the 'glory days' of the industry, cars like the GTM, Midas and Quantum were not that far off production car standards. The last bastion of the kit car market is that they can be a lot lighter than production cars, due to not having to comply with most safety regs, so the market has contracted down to trackday specials and a handful of replicas.- most kits are ugly. track ability does not trump having a beauty on the drive.
- NVH = most are noisy, cramped, creaky, rattly, not pleasant places to be - compared with a Passat, or even an MX5
- dealer support is non-existant
- no finance deals
the reality is that car ownership has evolved and the kit world hasn't followed the trend, so it shrank. There's always the odd few, but generally the market provides for the 99.9%.
I'm expecting someone in Government to wake up to the safety aspect, sooner or later, IVA will introduce requirements for airbags, ABS and DSC, and it'll be game over.
RedAndy said:
..and I've always thought a governing body.would be helpful -a voice for kit manufacturers, rather than all acting individually. kinda like what RIBA is for architects - or the FA is for football.
We've had two: the now-defunct STATUS, and currently the Niche Vehicle Network. If manufacturers chose not to engage with the latter, that's their problem - there's not even a membership fee.You don't want an organisation like the RIBA... trust me on this (Director of an Architectural pactice)!
Pugwash ...... it would probably be a good idea to go to the Kit Car Show at Stoneleigh (Warwickshire) on the May Bank Holiday (Sun/Mon).
You would be able to see what's currently on the market and also talk to thousands of various Club members who exhibit their cars.
Most importantly you would be able to directly ask the manufacturers about getting their product through the constantly changing IVA test and what they are doing with regard to new proposed legislation.
Under all circumstances you need to do a great deal of market research before contemplating spending any money. Also you need to be convinced you have the money and time to complete a build in the shortest time possible, otherwise the testing requirements change faster than you can build the thing!
PS. I'm not trying to be negative. These days building a 'kit car' is not a casual affair and needs serious commitment.
You would be able to see what's currently on the market and also talk to thousands of various Club members who exhibit their cars.
Most importantly you would be able to directly ask the manufacturers about getting their product through the constantly changing IVA test and what they are doing with regard to new proposed legislation.
Under all circumstances you need to do a great deal of market research before contemplating spending any money. Also you need to be convinced you have the money and time to complete a build in the shortest time possible, otherwise the testing requirements change faster than you can build the thing!
PS. I'm not trying to be negative. These days building a 'kit car' is not a casual affair and needs serious commitment.
PugwasHDJ80 said:
So if i can't buy a Dax or Quantum any more and i can't afford a GD T70 what's still good?
Depends what appeals to you, really - my personal favorite at the moment (apart from the Westfield XI, which I personally wouldn't risk because it's too dodgy in IVA terms) is the Sylva J15.But what sort of car are you after, and for what purpose?
Well it can't be a lightweight 7-alike as i don't fit! i did fit in quantums and cobras though!
Needs a big v8 and lots of torque with a bit of internal space.
Thatnks for the reminder about stoneleigh- its harder with a young family now
To be honest, i'm sure i can find lots of kits, its just the surprise i felt when i started seraching for Dax, etc only to find them gone!
Needs a big v8 and lots of torque with a bit of internal space.
Thatnks for the reminder about stoneleigh- its harder with a young family now
To be honest, i'm sure i can find lots of kits, its just the surprise i felt when i started seraching for Dax, etc only to find them gone!
downsman said:
I'm sure the kit car market has been affected by the fact that large numbers of the younger population have never held a spanner let alone maintained their own car. If you can't change your oil and brake pads, it must be daunting to try building a car.
I think of mine as being one of the last of the few, scratch builds that is.Due for it's first MOT in April.
Paul G
I'm trying to think when kit car sales peaked in this country. Not really sure, but it feels like sometime during the late eighties or nineties. Is that right? Don't know. But in any case, there was a perfect convergence of factors that made kit cars so popular back then:
1. Ford was a four letter word spelled r-u-s-t and there were suitable Escort and Cortina donors piling up on every street corner. You couldn't give em away. Fifty quid would get you a rust stricken MOT failure giving you, with a little elbow grease, most of the mechanicals to get you on the road. ISTR many seven type roadsters (Strikers?) with instrument binnacles straight from the donor car, untouched. Very rare now. There were home made bench seats, live axles, rear drum brakes, 4 speed gearboxes, even Cortina based Cobras with a Rover V8 option. Cheap reuseable parts were everywhere and people were willing to use them. Nowadays people want a lot more brand new parts and all singing all dancing specs. I think the kit car that did more than any other to make building a kit accessible to the masses, was the Dutton. Whilst very cheap, it was somewhat "approximate" in both its design and handling finesse in a way that would not be tolerated now, even if it could pass IVA. Expectations have changed and people are not happy with a rough old nail cobbled together by hook or by crook. This has all pushed the cost right up. What was once a hobby for people on average incomes, is now a hobby strictly for people with plenty of disposable income. Don't forget, since the 90s, the average age of a first time home owner has risen dramatically. Owning your own garage is a luxury you need to be able to relax and take your time on a kit car build.
2. I totally agree, far fewer car owners tinker with their vehicles today. Necessity was the mother of invention, and anyone who started driving in the mid eighties, or before, had to learn to fix or repair, otherwise they didn't keep on motoring. Electronic ignition and effective rust treatment have near enough eliminated the need for most motorists to have to do any fiddling. Cars just keep on going and going between services with little to no aggro. So, people just don't have the skills any more.
3. Kit car owner/builders were much more easily satisfied. Expectations regarding acceleration have moved on a lot now. I remember, while wandering round the then numerous kit car shows in the mid nineties, there being quite a lot of Strikers built on a shoestring, many with 1300cc X-flow engines. It was a popular engine choice back in the Sylva days (where are they all now?). At under 500 kg, with a 3.89 axle ratio and a 4 speed box, it still seemed pretty quick in its day. Its 70 odd BHP probably equated to 0-60 in around 8 seconds, although felt possibly quicker. No good at all on the motorway, but perfect for a blast round the block when you've got a free half hour. Nobody would be interested in that today. Everyone's hung up on bling and headline grabbing 0-60 times. I think the common rail diesel did more than anything else to change expectations regarding acceleration, and everything's a lot faster now.
4. You add the above factors together, and they compound upon one another. So, because people have less and less skills to be able to fix and repair, they want more and more brand new parts, further pushing the cost up. All of this has pushed the whole thing further and further out of reach economically for many people in these days of astronomical house prices and punishing rents. And so, a three grand MX5, or even a five grand Boxster, starts to look quite attractive.
1. Ford was a four letter word spelled r-u-s-t and there were suitable Escort and Cortina donors piling up on every street corner. You couldn't give em away. Fifty quid would get you a rust stricken MOT failure giving you, with a little elbow grease, most of the mechanicals to get you on the road. ISTR many seven type roadsters (Strikers?) with instrument binnacles straight from the donor car, untouched. Very rare now. There were home made bench seats, live axles, rear drum brakes, 4 speed gearboxes, even Cortina based Cobras with a Rover V8 option. Cheap reuseable parts were everywhere and people were willing to use them. Nowadays people want a lot more brand new parts and all singing all dancing specs. I think the kit car that did more than any other to make building a kit accessible to the masses, was the Dutton. Whilst very cheap, it was somewhat "approximate" in both its design and handling finesse in a way that would not be tolerated now, even if it could pass IVA. Expectations have changed and people are not happy with a rough old nail cobbled together by hook or by crook. This has all pushed the cost right up. What was once a hobby for people on average incomes, is now a hobby strictly for people with plenty of disposable income. Don't forget, since the 90s, the average age of a first time home owner has risen dramatically. Owning your own garage is a luxury you need to be able to relax and take your time on a kit car build.
2. I totally agree, far fewer car owners tinker with their vehicles today. Necessity was the mother of invention, and anyone who started driving in the mid eighties, or before, had to learn to fix or repair, otherwise they didn't keep on motoring. Electronic ignition and effective rust treatment have near enough eliminated the need for most motorists to have to do any fiddling. Cars just keep on going and going between services with little to no aggro. So, people just don't have the skills any more.
3. Kit car owner/builders were much more easily satisfied. Expectations regarding acceleration have moved on a lot now. I remember, while wandering round the then numerous kit car shows in the mid nineties, there being quite a lot of Strikers built on a shoestring, many with 1300cc X-flow engines. It was a popular engine choice back in the Sylva days (where are they all now?
). At under 500 kg, with a 3.89 axle ratio and a 4 speed box, it still seemed pretty quick in its day. Its 70 odd BHP probably equated to 0-60 in around 8 seconds, although felt possibly quicker. No good at all on the motorway, but perfect for a blast round the block when you've got a free half hour. Nobody would be interested in that today. Everyone's hung up on bling and headline grabbing 0-60 times. I think the common rail diesel did more than anything else to change expectations regarding acceleration, and everything's a lot faster now.4. You add the above factors together, and they compound upon one another. So, because people have less and less skills to be able to fix and repair, they want more and more brand new parts, further pushing the cost up. All of this has pushed the whole thing further and further out of reach economically for many people in these days of astronomical house prices and punishing rents. And so, a three grand MX5, or even a five grand Boxster, starts to look quite attractive.
Edited by Johnny5hoods on Tuesday 27th February 06:53
Johnny5hoods said:
I'm trying to think when kit car sales peaked in this country. Not really sure, but it feels like sometime during the late eighties or nineties. Is that right? Don't know. But in any case, there was a perfect convergence of factors that made kit cars so popular back then:
1. Ford was a four letter word spelled r-u-s-t and there were suitable Escort and Cortina donors piling up on every street corner. You couldn't give em away. Fifty quid would get you a rust stricken MOT failure giving you, with a little elbow grease, most of the mechanicals to get you on the road. ISTR many seven type roadsters (Strikers?) with instrument binnacles straight from the donor car, untouched. Very rare now. There were home made bench seats, live axles, rear drum brakes, 4 speed gearboxes, even Cortina based Cobras with a Rover V8 option. Cheap reuseable parts were everywhere and people were willing to use them. Nowadays people want a lot more brand new parts and all singing all dancing specs. I think the kit car that did more than any other to make building a kit accessible to the masses, was the Dutton. Whilst very cheap, it was somewhat "approximate" in both its design and handling finesse in a way that would not be tolerated now, even if it could pass IVA. Expectations have changed and people are not happy with a rough old nail cobbled together by hook or by crook. This has all pushed the cost right up. What was once a hobby for people on average incomes, is now a hobby strictly for people with plenty of disposable income. Don't forget, since the 90s, the average age of a first time home owner has risen dramatically. Owning your own garage is a luxury you need to be able to relax and take your time on a kit car build.
2. I totally agree, far fewer car owners tinker with their vehicles today. Necessity was the mother of invention, and anyone who started driving in the mid eighties, or before, had to learn to fix or repair, otherwise they didn't keep on motoring. Electronic ignition and effective rust treatment have near enough eliminated the need for most motorists to have to do any fiddling. Cars just keep on going and going between services with little to no aggro. So, people just don't have the skills any more.
3. Kit car owner/builders were much more easily satisfied. Expectations regarding acceleration have moved on a lot now. I remember, while wandering round the then numerous kit car shows in the mid nineties, there being quite a lot of Strikers built on a shoestring, many with 1300cc X-flow engines. It was a popular engine choice back in the Sylva days (where are they all now?). At under 500 kg, with a 3.89 axle ratio and a 4 speed box, it still seemed pretty quick in its day. Its 70 odd BHP probably equated to 0-60 in around 8 seconds, although felt possibly quicker. No good at all on the motorway, but perfect for a blast round the block when you've got a free half hour. Nobody would be interested in that today. Everyone's hung up on bling and headline grabbing 0-60 times. I think the common rail diesel did more than anything else to change expectations regarding acceleration, and everything's a lot faster now.
4. You add the above factors together, and they compound upon one another. So, because people have less and less skills to be able to fix and repair, they want more and more brand new parts, further pushing the cost up. All of this has pushed the whole thing further and further out of reach economically for many people in these days of astronomical house prices and punishing rents. And so, a three grand MX5, or even a five grand Boxster, starts to look quite attractive.
I agree with what you are saying and this is my view based on my experience of about five years ago when I was looking into building a Zero. 1. Ford was a four letter word spelled r-u-s-t and there were suitable Escort and Cortina donors piling up on every street corner. You couldn't give em away. Fifty quid would get you a rust stricken MOT failure giving you, with a little elbow grease, most of the mechanicals to get you on the road. ISTR many seven type roadsters (Strikers?) with instrument binnacles straight from the donor car, untouched. Very rare now. There were home made bench seats, live axles, rear drum brakes, 4 speed gearboxes, even Cortina based Cobras with a Rover V8 option. Cheap reuseable parts were everywhere and people were willing to use them. Nowadays people want a lot more brand new parts and all singing all dancing specs. I think the kit car that did more than any other to make building a kit accessible to the masses, was the Dutton. Whilst very cheap, it was somewhat "approximate" in both its design and handling finesse in a way that would not be tolerated now, even if it could pass IVA. Expectations have changed and people are not happy with a rough old nail cobbled together by hook or by crook. This has all pushed the cost right up. What was once a hobby for people on average incomes, is now a hobby strictly for people with plenty of disposable income. Don't forget, since the 90s, the average age of a first time home owner has risen dramatically. Owning your own garage is a luxury you need to be able to relax and take your time on a kit car build.
2. I totally agree, far fewer car owners tinker with their vehicles today. Necessity was the mother of invention, and anyone who started driving in the mid eighties, or before, had to learn to fix or repair, otherwise they didn't keep on motoring. Electronic ignition and effective rust treatment have near enough eliminated the need for most motorists to have to do any fiddling. Cars just keep on going and going between services with little to no aggro. So, people just don't have the skills any more.
3. Kit car owner/builders were much more easily satisfied. Expectations regarding acceleration have moved on a lot now. I remember, while wandering round the then numerous kit car shows in the mid nineties, there being quite a lot of Strikers built on a shoestring, many with 1300cc X-flow engines. It was a popular engine choice back in the Sylva days (where are they all now?
). At under 500 kg, with a 3.89 axle ratio and a 4 speed box, it still seemed pretty quick in its day. Its 70 odd BHP probably equated to 0-60 in around 8 seconds, although felt possibly quicker. No good at all on the motorway, but perfect for a blast round the block when you've got a free half hour. Nobody would be interested in that today. Everyone's hung up on bling and headline grabbing 0-60 times. I think the common rail diesel did more than anything else to change expectations regarding acceleration, and everything's a lot faster now.4. You add the above factors together, and they compound upon one another. So, because people have less and less skills to be able to fix and repair, they want more and more brand new parts, further pushing the cost up. All of this has pushed the whole thing further and further out of reach economically for many people in these days of astronomical house prices and punishing rents. And so, a three grand MX5, or even a five grand Boxster, starts to look quite attractive.
Edited by Johnny5hoods on Tuesday 27th February 06:53
I went to factory, had a test drive and went to a couple of the kit car shows and even started hunting down Zetec Engines.
However, even five years ago, it was a real struggle to find a Siera to donate the gearbox axels and numerous other components. AT the time, Zero offered a donar car pack for £500, but that was based on a limited availability and it meant your freshly built car ended up on a Q plate, which from what I read de-valued the car considerably. Looking back, I probably got too concerned with that and ended up shelving the entire project.
I then test drove a S2000, which would cost me about the same as the GBS Zero build and be more practical. I was carryiong a lot of weight at the time I really struggled with the lack of comfort in the S2000 so a kit car would have probably been a bad idea especially when considering how much it was going to cost to get it to 200bhp.
After all that, I bought a Mini Cooper S, which wasn't a great idea either.
Just for reference, I'm 37 and my first car was a Austin Mini which I heavily modified and owned for four years. Now have a 88 Series Land Rover that I have been restoring for the last four years and will probably continue to do so for the next 6 then I shall sell it when it goes VED free.
My best friend is very into cars and we talk a lot. My more local friends have no interest in spannering cars or DIY and I think they are more of a reflerction of my generation.
Its a few main things I think;
My vote is build a DDR, Current UK club level - 2
- Time needed - Its a fast paced world now for someone young and a lot to do, to throw yourself into one thing
- Money - They arent cheap and its a world of have everything now and finance to pay it off slowly. Something the kit car world doesnt really offer
- Space - Most young people either live at home or in a shared flat / building.
My vote is build a DDR, Current UK club level - 2
@pugwash.....i'd imagine that if you could fit into a quantum you'd fit into a luego viento easily.....quite a few of those have v8's....
as for others....depends whether you're 'fitting' issues are width or length related....
a pal has a tiger supercat andhe's about 6'2 and 18 stone....
another who is more like 6ft and 20sthas a viento.....
as for what's happened to the industry....
poor service & backup
plethora of cheap sportscars (mainstream)
time taken to build ( and sort the problems that the manual doesnt cover)
lack of tinkering skills
upside or downside....prices have gone up for 2nd cars....
as for others....depends whether you're 'fitting' issues are width or length related....
a pal has a tiger supercat andhe's about 6'2 and 18 stone....
another who is more like 6ft and 20sthas a viento.....
as for what's happened to the industry....
poor service & backup
plethora of cheap sportscars (mainstream)
time taken to build ( and sort the problems that the manual doesnt cover)
lack of tinkering skills
upside or downside....prices have gone up for 2nd cars....
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