Whats happened to the Kit car world in the past 8 years?
Discussion
What's wrong with a Q plate?. What gets on my nerves about kit cars is the usual criticising by others who, from the way they talk, give you the impression that they've got more money than you and can afford something more original.
You spend your hard earned money (and time) on building a kit car you want to enjoy, only for people to point the finger by saying this dosent look right or that dosent look right, then moan because it's from Ford donar parts. Who bloody cares.
You spend your hard earned money (and time) on building a kit car you want to enjoy, only for people to point the finger by saying this dosent look right or that dosent look right, then moan because it's from Ford donar parts. Who bloody cares.
Regarding kit cars vs originals, the Caterham Seven might be somewhat tenuously original, but most people who've driven a well set up Striker or Fury would contend that they handle at least as well, if not better. The original Cobra 427 is known for its challenging handling. It can spin in a straight line! Some of the spaceframe chassis replicas, correctly set up, are likely to be more benign. And any classic Ferrari will rust like crazy if not kept in a climate controlled garage 10 months of the year. Plus, they get bought by investors and never driven.
Replicas are not inferior at all. They may be worth less, in most cases, but they have a number of practical advantages.
Replicas are not inferior at all. They may be worth less, in most cases, but they have a number of practical advantages.
.. and what about Stratos Replicas etc. I once heard someone joking that the way to tell a kit Stratos was that the panel fit is superior to that on the original Lancia job.
ref Q plates, lest someone get the wrong idea, I would have nothing other than a Q plate on my Westfield as that shows that I probably built it (which I did). Having said that, Q plates on an old Land Rover or the like I would not want for the simple fact that it would restrict my ability to sell it on in the future. That is a simple observation of other people's prejudices not mine.
ref Q plates, lest someone get the wrong idea, I would have nothing other than a Q plate on my Westfield as that shows that I probably built it (which I did). Having said that, Q plates on an old Land Rover or the like I would not want for the simple fact that it would restrict my ability to sell it on in the future. That is a simple observation of other people's prejudices not mine.
Interesting thread......
I agree with much of what is said here.
I'm now the wrong side of 60, and living on the other side of the planet, but I built a Marlin, a Tora, Helped with a Dutton, another marlin, a TD roadster ? (can't remember name..).
Anyway, 70's was indeed full of quickly rotting Fords and Leylands, many of which were mechanically quite simple. Front Wheel Drive is far more of a challenge for the kit designer as it's hard to mess with, so as I remember, only really the Mini kits were common. There were simply so many cars undergoing an identity crisis and turning into cheese graters.....
Now it's been many years, I can honestly say I was truly HORRIFIED at some of the chassis and body designs which were around in the late 70's at places like Stoneleigh, and that's before we get even close to how bad they looked. The Dutton Pheaton chassis was, er...., let's say not up to my standards, and I refused even to be a passenger in one, but, I don't remember many breaking. I was impressed by the Marlin chassis, mainly because it was well over-engineered, and fully sealed tube. I was friends with Paul Moorhouse (the designer/owner) and he had similar low opinions of quite a few designs around the place.
My Marlin ? Triumph based, Vitesse bits, (tuned) 2500 with Saloon gearbox and OD, 3.27 GT6 rear diff. Went VERY well from the lights, but ran into the wall about 65 mph. I built it and registered it in 1982, and was a bit surprised that it only needed an MOT.... It never broke down in 20 years, well, once when the diff exploded, but apart from that..... later when I needed a reliable large motorway carrier I got a Tora (Hillman Hunter !!) and put a 2.8 V6 Ford and 5 speed box in it. Again only an MOT, even though it had home made and welded engine mounts, gearbox mounts.....
I left UK before the new systems came in, but I can imagine they stopped the 'cowboy' end of kits, both from designers and builders. Probably a good thing.
But yeah, I guess mostly it's because the age of cheap RWD rot boxes is over. Nearly everything is FWD today, and with cats and Efi it's a hell of a lot more complex to strip and reassemble than it used to be. Some stuff now is tuned down to its inlet and exhaust manifold shape, so you can't even mess with that (thinking Lexus and Toyota, but others too).
But then here in New Zealand, where they never salt the roads, It can be surprising to see what's around on the roads now and again...American and British classics which are probably long gone in UK, but the prices tend to reflect their rarity (Mk1, Mk2 Cortina ? More than you would think !)
I do wonder about a nice Triumph 2500 with a Lexus 1UZ-FE in it though...... Yes there are NZ built saloons, some in great nick, and the Lexus V8 is quite cheap, and it's no bigger than a Stag engine, and 300 horses or more.....but it costs a shedload to get mods like that approved via the equiv NZ system.
Shame..... but I guess that's life.
I agree with much of what is said here.
I'm now the wrong side of 60, and living on the other side of the planet, but I built a Marlin, a Tora, Helped with a Dutton, another marlin, a TD roadster ? (can't remember name..).
Anyway, 70's was indeed full of quickly rotting Fords and Leylands, many of which were mechanically quite simple. Front Wheel Drive is far more of a challenge for the kit designer as it's hard to mess with, so as I remember, only really the Mini kits were common. There were simply so many cars undergoing an identity crisis and turning into cheese graters.....
Now it's been many years, I can honestly say I was truly HORRIFIED at some of the chassis and body designs which were around in the late 70's at places like Stoneleigh, and that's before we get even close to how bad they looked. The Dutton Pheaton chassis was, er...., let's say not up to my standards, and I refused even to be a passenger in one, but, I don't remember many breaking. I was impressed by the Marlin chassis, mainly because it was well over-engineered, and fully sealed tube. I was friends with Paul Moorhouse (the designer/owner) and he had similar low opinions of quite a few designs around the place.
My Marlin ? Triumph based, Vitesse bits, (tuned) 2500 with Saloon gearbox and OD, 3.27 GT6 rear diff. Went VERY well from the lights, but ran into the wall about 65 mph. I built it and registered it in 1982, and was a bit surprised that it only needed an MOT.... It never broke down in 20 years, well, once when the diff exploded, but apart from that..... later when I needed a reliable large motorway carrier I got a Tora (Hillman Hunter !!) and put a 2.8 V6 Ford and 5 speed box in it. Again only an MOT, even though it had home made and welded engine mounts, gearbox mounts.....
I left UK before the new systems came in, but I can imagine they stopped the 'cowboy' end of kits, both from designers and builders. Probably a good thing.
But yeah, I guess mostly it's because the age of cheap RWD rot boxes is over. Nearly everything is FWD today, and with cats and Efi it's a hell of a lot more complex to strip and reassemble than it used to be. Some stuff now is tuned down to its inlet and exhaust manifold shape, so you can't even mess with that (thinking Lexus and Toyota, but others too).
But then here in New Zealand, where they never salt the roads, It can be surprising to see what's around on the roads now and again...American and British classics which are probably long gone in UK, but the prices tend to reflect their rarity (Mk1, Mk2 Cortina ? More than you would think !)
I do wonder about a nice Triumph 2500 with a Lexus 1UZ-FE in it though...... Yes there are NZ built saloons, some in great nick, and the Lexus V8 is quite cheap, and it's no bigger than a Stag engine, and 300 horses or more.....but it costs a shedload to get mods like that approved via the equiv NZ system.
Shame..... but I guess that's life.
And I bought a TVR Tasmin, which to me was a manufactured kit car. When I expressed this view though, many people thought I was knocking the Tasmin, which gives an insight into the fact that the mainstream still though of kits as something 'dodgy'. Not true of course, many kits were every bit as good (better?) than many 'clone' cars. Some of the body mouldings were fabulous quality !!
RCK974X said:
Now it's been many years, I can honestly say I was truly HORRIFIED at some of the chassis and body designs which were around in the late 70's at places like Stoneleigh, and that's before we get even close to how bad they looked.
I left UK before the new systems came in, but I can imagine they stopped the 'cowboy' end of kits, both from designers and builders. Probably a good thing.
There was some awful crap around in the mid 1980s, when the industry was probably at it's most prolific. And it's a good thing that they have gone.I left UK before the new systems came in, but I can imagine they stopped the 'cowboy' end of kits, both from designers and builders. Probably a good thing.
But the SVA and IVA decimated the industry. And the proposed emissions requirements will pretty much finish it off.
It's a proper shame to see a lovely, well engineered kit such as the Westfield XI become pretty much impossible to register.
And as much as I would like to build another kit, the whole process is now far too off putting.
My last project was a rebuild of a 1970s Caterham. The current job is restoring a 1970 TVR. Just the same fun, but with no IVA, emissions, noise restrictions etc etc to worry about. All this is fine for me, but it does not bode well for the present day industry.
And it is such a shame.
With classic car prices inflated in their current bubble, kit cars should become more attractive and cost effective alternatives.
Can't afford an E-Type? A nice D Type replica might do the trick.
Elans too pricey? What about a Westfield XI for a bit of fun?
Ferrari Dino out of reach? How about a Hawk Stratos?
These should be great days for the kit car industry, just like they were the last time that classic car prices went mad, back in the 1980s.
Very sad times.
One problem is that when people think kit cars, they think of the classic front engine RWD style. Easy when every wreckers yard is full od Escorts, Cortinas, Triumphs etc.
Now that every modern small car is transverse FWD, it would seem logical to base kits around the MR2 / X1/9 model : fit a complete FWD engine & gearbox at the rear to make a mid-engined RWD car.
Unfortunately, apart from the Stratos replicas, the styling of most mid/rear kits is, well, challenging. And many go the big-power 6 or 8 cyl. route.
You should be able to make a cracker of a small car, with eg an Ecoboost engine, keeping it small, light, and simple. So where are they?
Now that every modern small car is transverse FWD, it would seem logical to base kits around the MR2 / X1/9 model : fit a complete FWD engine & gearbox at the rear to make a mid-engined RWD car.
Unfortunately, apart from the Stratos replicas, the styling of most mid/rear kits is, well, challenging. And many go the big-power 6 or 8 cyl. route.
You should be able to make a cracker of a small car, with eg an Ecoboost engine, keeping it small, light, and simple. So where are they?
I recall reading an issue of KC&S back in the '80s, where one chap had used an Escort Twin Cam as the donor car for a Dutton Phaeton!
Mind you, I remember cutting up a rotten Innocenti Mini Cooper 1300 with an angle grinder and taking it to the council tip in the back of a Fiesta. The engine, box, discs and hubs were transplanted into my Mini 1000.
Back in those days we didn't know any better.
But I don't agree that a lack of cheap donors is the problem. The world is littered with rotten MX5s and Westfield adapted their chassis so that you could pretty much recycle a whole MX5. I was quite surprised that the Mazda Westfield wasn't more of a success.
And it isn't the lack of rotten Midgets that stops more Westfield XIs from being sold.
It's the bloody IVA that's responsible.
The big classic car and classic bike shows are just as popular as they ever were. There are plenty of classic car and bike magazines.
The enthusiasts are still out there. They just aren't buying kits.
Mind you, I remember cutting up a rotten Innocenti Mini Cooper 1300 with an angle grinder and taking it to the council tip in the back of a Fiesta. The engine, box, discs and hubs were transplanted into my Mini 1000.
Back in those days we didn't know any better.
But I don't agree that a lack of cheap donors is the problem. The world is littered with rotten MX5s and Westfield adapted their chassis so that you could pretty much recycle a whole MX5. I was quite surprised that the Mazda Westfield wasn't more of a success.
And it isn't the lack of rotten Midgets that stops more Westfield XIs from being sold.
It's the bloody IVA that's responsible.
The big classic car and classic bike shows are just as popular as they ever were. There are plenty of classic car and bike magazines.
The enthusiasts are still out there. They just aren't buying kits.
However, I agree the MX5 is the perfect donor, particularly with the front chassis rails forcing many Mk2.5s off the road right now.
Trouble is, what does it cost, realistically, to build a SDV Westfield these days? I know there'll be someone somewhere who's done it on a shoestring using parts they've spent the last ten years collecting for beer money. But for the normal builder, using an average mixture of new and used parts, and building to an acceptable standard of finish, is £14K about right? For that money, you can buy an excellent condition, low mileage Elise or Boxster S, or ... an excellent condition low to medium spec Caterham.
Trouble is, what does it cost, realistically, to build a SDV Westfield these days? I know there'll be someone somewhere who's done it on a shoestring using parts they've spent the last ten years collecting for beer money. But for the normal builder, using an average mixture of new and used parts, and building to an acceptable standard of finish, is £14K about right? For that money, you can buy an excellent condition, low mileage Elise or Boxster S, or ... an excellent condition low to medium spec Caterham.
Johnny5hoods said:
However, I agree the MX5 is the perfect donor, particularly with the front chassis rails forcing many Mk2.5s off the road right now.
Trouble is, what does it cost, realistically, to build a SDV Westfield these days? I know there'll be someone somewhere who's done it on a shoestring using parts they've spent the last ten years collecting for beer money. But for the normal builder, using an average mixture of new and used parts, and building to an acceptable standard of finish, is £14K about right? For that money, you can buy an excellent condition, low mileage Elise or Boxster S, or ... an excellent condition low to medium spec Caterham.
Yep.Trouble is, what does it cost, realistically, to build a SDV Westfield these days? I know there'll be someone somewhere who's done it on a shoestring using parts they've spent the last ten years collecting for beer money. But for the normal builder, using an average mixture of new and used parts, and building to an acceptable standard of finish, is £14K about right? For that money, you can buy an excellent condition, low mileage Elise or Boxster S, or ... an excellent condition low to medium spec Caterham.
And, just to prove the point, last year I bought a 1999 Caterham Seven VX Classic. It had 6000 miles on the clock and it cost £10,800. I ran it for the summer and then sold it for what I'd paid. It was a bit of a chuffing and asthmatic old thing, but was just like new.
And, as you pointed out, the same money would buy a fantastic Boxster (is there such a thing?) or a wonderful V6 Alfa GTV. It would just about get you into an Elise. And for a fraction of the cost, you could be in any number of MX5s or MR2s.
I guess that the appeal of building a kit car is the build process. Being able to construct a car completely to your own requirements.
Except that you can't. You have to work within all sorts of restrictions. And now it looks like carburettors are out and catalysts and fuel injection are in, so even more restrictions.
You have a damn sight more freedom if you choose to restore an old motorbike. Or a classic car.
Bah humbug.
Wacky Racer said:
Yep.His old sports/racer designs are right up my street.
Funnily enough, he bought my last but one Seven from me.
It has been said by others in the 'emissions thread' that there is still plenty of scope to build good kit cars from more modern donors (such as MX5), and this appears to be the case. The MOT regs as they stand should pose no issues if using injection etc. Don't get too despondent, our hobby is still here! 
I come at it from a different angle. I've got less than NO interest in building a kit-car. However, I've owned a Westfield MegaBlade and a Caterham R400, currently own an Ultima GTR and have a deposit on a LB Stratos which will also be built for me.
For me, I like the performance aspect of cars so the Kit-Car arena is where I can look for something that is just a bit more interesting and individual than the run of the mill cars. I've been to Stoneleigh 4 out of the past 5 years and the challenge for me is seeing something that looks like something I would want to own.
I get why beech buggies are popular (I always fancy one every time I'm at the show) and appreciate that the Cobras are classy, but other than that I struggle a bit. The last thing that wowed me visually, other than the Lister Bell, was the DeHavilland Motor Company's version of the Dino but it all began to get fairly expensive for something built on an MGF platform.
I appreciate that folk looking to build cars will have additional priorities relating to budget, ease of build, quality of kit etc but as a general punter looking at what was available, I never see too much that I'd envisage wanting to own (even if I had any skills to actually build one)
For me, I like the performance aspect of cars so the Kit-Car arena is where I can look for something that is just a bit more interesting and individual than the run of the mill cars. I've been to Stoneleigh 4 out of the past 5 years and the challenge for me is seeing something that looks like something I would want to own.
I get why beech buggies are popular (I always fancy one every time I'm at the show) and appreciate that the Cobras are classy, but other than that I struggle a bit. The last thing that wowed me visually, other than the Lister Bell, was the DeHavilland Motor Company's version of the Dino but it all began to get fairly expensive for something built on an MGF platform.
I appreciate that folk looking to build cars will have additional priorities relating to budget, ease of build, quality of kit etc but as a general punter looking at what was available, I never see too much that I'd envisage wanting to own (even if I had any skills to actually build one)
two new additions within the last few years
There's the Mirage GT:
http://mirageautomotive.co.uk/mirage-gt/
which isn't cheap,
but at the other end of the scale, does a 'rebody' count?
https://www.blackwellsportscars.com/
There's the Mirage GT:
http://mirageautomotive.co.uk/mirage-gt/
which isn't cheap,
but at the other end of the scale, does a 'rebody' count?
https://www.blackwellsportscars.com/
feef said:
two new additions within the last few years
There's the Mirage GT:
http://mirageautomotive.co.uk/mirage-gt/
which isn't cheap,
Crikey, it certainly isn’t.There's the Mirage GT:
http://mirageautomotive.co.uk/mirage-gt/
which isn't cheap,
said:
I’m struggling to imagine the circumstances where spending a “cheap” £4-5k on top of the price of an MX5 seems a great idea, no matter how cheap the MX 5 isEach to their own tho
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