Whats happened to the Kit car world in the past 8 years?
Discussion
Equus said:
Gemaeden said:
The idea is not to have a car width vehicle but a bike width one that is statically stable, due to it having a triangular plan rather than linear plan. This is new.
No it's not.
The fact that you have never seen one on the road tells you all you need to know.
Gemaeden said:
Sorry. I didn't explain very well. The idea is to have a car like vehicle that is sat in, not on.
Then see the Mercedes Benz Lifejet, linked above (or the Carver One, the CLEVER or the Nissan Landglider, if you don't mind an extra wheel)It ain't gonna happen as a kit car, because the tilt arrangement is too complex to get right, and without it, narrow track on a 3-wheeler = instability.
You mean like these from Steve Mills (MEV):
&
I think you'll have a lot of fun with Elvis's A-Z of three wheelers and you should definitely have a read of R.Q.Riley's essay about trike stability.
&
I think you'll have a lot of fun with Elvis's A-Z of three wheelers and you should definitely have a read of R.Q.Riley's essay about trike stability.
Equus said:
No, I think he'd be wanting something that is designed competently? 
Are you referring to the photo's of those suspension joints? It was never really clear to me whether that was Steve's work or that of a builder working from plans, so benefit of the doubt and all that.I must admit that sitting the driver that close to the rear wheel and high up on top of the battery doesn't appear to be a recipe for stability, but Steve swears it's fine at the speeds the etrike is capable of.
mikeveal said:
Are you referring to the photo's of those suspension joints?
I'm referring to MEV's output, generally.mikeveal said:
...Steve swears it's fine at the speeds the etrike is capable of.
Well, he would, wouldn't he? 
But Gemaeden is talking about supercar levels of performance, not a souped-up electric buggy.
Just to clear things up.
The vehicle will be sat in like a single seater.
It will be less than a metre wide
The driver doesn't tilt.
Supercar beating performance is due to the ability of a narrow vehicle to lane split and use bus lanes.
Circuit performance should be better than most non wing race cars.
It uses novel technology.
The vehicle will be sat in like a single seater.
It will be less than a metre wide
The driver doesn't tilt.
Supercar beating performance is due to the ability of a narrow vehicle to lane split and use bus lanes.
Circuit performance should be better than most non wing race cars.
It uses novel technology.
Gemaeden said:
Just to clear things up.
The vehicle will be sat in like a single seater.
It will be less than a metre wide
The driver doesn't tilt.
Supercar beating performance is due to the ability of a narrow vehicle to lane split and use bus lanes.
Circuit performance should be better than most non wing race cars.
It uses novel technology.
Then as per Mike Veal's initial response: off you go and build it, and we'll see if the world beats a path to your doorstep when you've done so. The vehicle will be sat in like a single seater.
It will be less than a metre wide
The driver doesn't tilt.
Supercar beating performance is due to the ability of a narrow vehicle to lane split and use bus lanes.
Circuit performance should be better than most non wing race cars.
It uses novel technology.
It's easy to invent specifications. It's less easy to make them work, and to manufacture them profitably.
If your driver doesn't lean, then you've got lateral weight transfer happening in the bends.
Lateral weight transfer + narrow track = bad news
So unless your 'novel technology' is an anti-gravity device or a get-out-of-jail-free card on the laws of physics, I'd say you've got problems.
Gemaeden said:
Just to clear things up.
The vehicle will be sat in like a single seater.
It will be less than a metre wide
The driver doesn't tilt.
Supercar beating performance is due to the ability of a narrow vehicle to lane split and use bus lanes.
Circuit performance should be better than most non wing race cars.
It uses novel technology.
Oh, you mean like this:The vehicle will be sat in like a single seater.
It will be less than a metre wide
The driver doesn't tilt.
Supercar beating performance is due to the ability of a narrow vehicle to lane split and use bus lanes.
Circuit performance should be better than most non wing race cars.
It uses novel technology.
Have you any experience of building kit cars or specials?
I'm all for random things and new ideas, but I am still struggling to see it as a concept, or whats it target audience is.
The ability to have a seat, use a bus-lane (motorbikes, and trikes under 450kg) is a market segment, but unless it has a full spec roof and doors I cant see the advantage of a two-wheel bike. On track I can see no advantages to a narrow three-wheel format over that of a severn/atom style car. I can see trying to filter through traffic in a 1m wide car/trike ending in tears. However perhaps more importantly, I cant visualise a customer who considers high performance important in a bus lane, or the ability of their track machine to be able to beat city congestion.
That said, if you build a prototype, with or without the aim of scaled up production (distributed or otherwise) then definitely start a thread on here and i will watch with interest.
I sat in a Volkswagen XL1 when they came out, and price tag aside, it was one of the first production elec/hybrid cars I thought "you know what, this is different, but in a way i could really get behind" it was comfortable, reasonable performance, and would have worked well for 90% of my journeys and as one of two cars in our two car household.
Daniel
The ability to have a seat, use a bus-lane (motorbikes, and trikes under 450kg) is a market segment, but unless it has a full spec roof and doors I cant see the advantage of a two-wheel bike. On track I can see no advantages to a narrow three-wheel format over that of a severn/atom style car. I can see trying to filter through traffic in a 1m wide car/trike ending in tears. However perhaps more importantly, I cant visualise a customer who considers high performance important in a bus lane, or the ability of their track machine to be able to beat city congestion.
That said, if you build a prototype, with or without the aim of scaled up production (distributed or otherwise) then definitely start a thread on here and i will watch with interest.
I sat in a Volkswagen XL1 when they came out, and price tag aside, it was one of the first production elec/hybrid cars I thought "you know what, this is different, but in a way i could really get behind" it was comfortable, reasonable performance, and would have worked well for 90% of my journeys and as one of two cars in our two car household.
Daniel
dhutch said:
I'm all for random things and new ideas, but I am still struggling to see it as a concept, or whats it target audience is.
The ability to have a seat, use a bus-lane (motorbikes, and trikes under 450kg) is a market segment, but unless it has a full spec roof and doors I cant see the advantage of a two-wheel bike. On track I can see no advantages to a narrow three-wheel format over that of a severn/atom style car. I can see trying to filter through traffic in a 1m wide car/trike ending in tears. However perhaps more importantly, I cant visualise a customer who considers high performance important in a bus lane, or the ability of their track machine to be able to beat city congestion.
That said, if you build a prototype, with or without the aim of scaled up production (distributed or otherwise) then definitely start a thread on here and i will watch with interest.
I sat in a Volkswagen XL1 when they came out, and price tag aside, it was one of the first production elec/hybrid cars I thought "you know what, this is different, but in a way i could really get behind" it was comfortable, reasonable performance, and would have worked well for 90% of my journeys and as one of two cars in our two car household.
Daniel
It will be optionally enclosed, so it will be fine as a single seat vehicle that keeps its occupants comfortable and dry.The ability to have a seat, use a bus-lane (motorbikes, and trikes under 450kg) is a market segment, but unless it has a full spec roof and doors I cant see the advantage of a two-wheel bike. On track I can see no advantages to a narrow three-wheel format over that of a severn/atom style car. I can see trying to filter through traffic in a 1m wide car/trike ending in tears. However perhaps more importantly, I cant visualise a customer who considers high performance important in a bus lane, or the ability of their track machine to be able to beat city congestion.
That said, if you build a prototype, with or without the aim of scaled up production (distributed or otherwise) then definitely start a thread on here and i will watch with interest.
I sat in a Volkswagen XL1 when they came out, and price tag aside, it was one of the first production elec/hybrid cars I thought "you know what, this is different, but in a way i could really get behind" it was comfortable, reasonable performance, and would have worked well for 90% of my journeys and as one of two cars in our two car household.
Daniel
It should be less than a metre wide, around 850 mm, so narrower than some pannier equipped bikes that filter through traffic, with a length of under 2.5m, just less than a Honda Goldwing.
The novel technology is quite the opposite of anti-gravity, because that kind of engineering is within my technological grasp, but it doesn't yet exist in the marketplace. The driver won't require the counter steering skills of a motorcyclist,
Its advantage over an Atom or Seven is that the frontal area should be reduced by about 50%, which is a fair aerodynamic advantage.
The target audience is people who want an everyday usable vehicle that combines the traffic passing ability of a motorcycle with the comfort of a car. It isn't a trackday special.
I love car type trikes, I put this hillclimber on the road - pre SVA
IIRC built by J Challenger if anyone has access to hillclimb records
It was far lighter and prettier when I owned it, built mostly from aerolam with a GSXR1100 engine, it was only built to exploit the class rules at the time and realistically would have been better with 4 wheels
It was far too wide to lane split but was terrifyingly fast, stable at semi sensible road speeds but easy to get on 2 wheels at Curborough etc
IIRC built by J Challenger if anyone has access to hillclimb records
It was far lighter and prettier when I owned it, built mostly from aerolam with a GSXR1100 engine, it was only built to exploit the class rules at the time and realistically would have been better with 4 wheels
It was far too wide to lane split but was terrifyingly fast, stable at semi sensible road speeds but easy to get on 2 wheels at Curborough etc
How tough are the SVA rules? Would be interesting to compare them to the swedish system we have here. Would have been good for the market if they would have some kind of collaboration with other countries, so the kits would be legal here aswell for example, without the need for cutting up stuff and putting it together in a different way.
Maybe there will be a market the coming years, with the new CO2 rules/mega taxes on the manufacturer that makes them slash most of the fun stuff, especially stuff that sells in some volumes, and more or lesse forced to increase the EV ammount. As long as kit cars fly under the radar it could be a way to still enjoy affordable sports cars. Who knows, sad anyway that he industry is suffering over there.
Maybe there will be a market the coming years, with the new CO2 rules/mega taxes on the manufacturer that makes them slash most of the fun stuff, especially stuff that sells in some volumes, and more or lesse forced to increase the EV ammount. As long as kit cars fly under the radar it could be a way to still enjoy affordable sports cars. Who knows, sad anyway that he industry is suffering over there.
CedricN said:
How tough are the SVA rules? Would be interesting to compare them to the swedish system we have here. Would have been good for the market if they would have some kind of collaboration with other countries, so the kits would be legal here aswell for example, without the need for cutting up stuff and putting it together in a different way.
I think the short answer is 'reasonably' although without a working knowledge of either I cant add a lot more than that. SVA has now been replaced with IVA which included some rule tweaks, if anything making it harder, but mainly increasing the cost of the test a lot as I understand it. Being 1991 registered my car, which was not built by me, predates both.Daniel
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