New project car, kit car newb

[Jim Spencer]

daytonavrs said:

Thanks for the last 2 posts, have hit of a bit brick road of my own involvement (lack of experience in this detail of mechanics) and very well may be looking to farm out some work to pros...electrics for instance. and other servicing.

Nah - neither has anybody else when you first start having a dabble with racing cars.. it's just a learning curve to go through.. Lol.

Once you've had a go things will start to make sense, they're actually easier to work on that most road cars as there's much less car in the way..
For electrics then yes that can be a bit odd, but a quick Google for a 'mobile auto electrician' will probably work wonders.

[dhutch]

Yeah, once you have a plan of attack there is a huge amount of info out there, and on here, log it all down here as a project thread and a lot of people will help out.

If you have a local sprint/race/kitcar club of some sort, you can likely even get people to come for an evening and give it a coat of looking at and help you along the way. Exceptions aside most people and clubs are very welcoming and supportive of new members.

Where about are you based?


Daniel

[daytonavrs]

Northants Daniel

[daytonavrs]

dhutch said:

No quite sure what you are meaning here.

I would have a look at your options and get a firm idea of what is you want to do, else espically if you farm out the work, it could become a very expensive road to knowhere.

Do you mean
- Trackdays; access to racing tracks, mixed run-what-you-brung cars, driving quickly but not racing.
- Autosolo/autotesting; tight carpark based timed runs between cones, in a class against other specials.
- Sprinting and Hill climbing; one-direction high speed timed runs on suitable tracks/circuits.
- Circuit racing; wheel-to-wheel racing on track, with similar types of car.

What if any driving experience do you have? Have you done trackday before? Budget?


Daniel

Yes - Experienced a number of trackdays, perforamce days, RWYB, bike track days etc. Probably in the region of about 10 instances of varied types, either as driver/rider or a passenger for a few of them.

No past experience of sprints, climbs or real racing, not to say I couldn't get into it more though inspired by this.

Just plans would to be prove it running to start with, first a santapod probably, then a single seater trackday ?

I suppose in reality at the amateur end I'd have been better getting some BEC twin seater that would suite the cheap and frequent trackdays and road legal but on the plus side, this is more purposeful isn't it?
And its only for fun......I have plenty other cars for everyday kind of driving that aren't slow.

I don't have any budget.
Having spent bugger all on the vehicle I'm not afraid to spend a little, although the tightfisted side of me wants to keep it in line with how much I got it for and keep the costs to only minimal hundreds and thousands, not tens of ( could just get a RF86 working for that). I was originally looking at the more road legal BECs though without any plan, but wasn't keen on spending IRO £10 on a toy (missus etc) so actually felt it worked out amazingly well to get an ex formula car with the amount gone into this for a few grand and that it was meant to be ( I wouldn't normally have the balls to bid on something like this so left field but something made me do it ).

Realistically aware that replaceing the panels unless I wait out and try and get a used set, could stretch to over a grand though, and not sure where I stand with the engine
Though actually just sorting garage access, towing and tow tranport is going to cost me extra- maybe around £1k alone assuming I do some of the fitting work ( fit towbar, refitting garage doors ) although that can have its uses beyond this and was planning to sort the doors as roundtuit for a while

Started recently but a bit rough clearly needing some tweaks ,
now situation gone back a bit in that currently not able to start it so something is out of kilter not sure if its electrics, wiring or what, but at least its not siezed on starting. Hopefully doesn't need engine pulling apart rebuilding.

Edited by daytonavrs on Wednesday 26th February 19:08

Edited by daytonavrs on Wednesday 26th February 19:11

[daytonavrs]

I saw this so had that in mind for its "limited" potential uses when i could use it when I mentioned "special trackdays"
though not sure with its current condition if it will be up for any of these dates progress depending.

https://www.javelintrackdays.co.uk/trackdays/Formu...

[dhutch]

So yeah spoilt for choice with track locations, easy driving to almost anywhere, and plenty of clubs/options.

You will know what a trackday is like then, and presumably enjoy them. I have done handful (in the westfield, three I think, over the first few years of having it, plus four laps of the ring during a weeks pilgrimage with uni mates) and would like to do a couple more in it, and perhaps try an experience day or something else. Good fun, interesting having someone in the passenger seat telling you to push harder, as well as just being able to spend time experimenting which how fast you actually can do a bend. If also a bit like powerboating compared to dinghy sailing, not something you could do ten time a year without is being coming a bit same-y for the cost.

No past experience of sprints, hilclimbs or circuit racing, here either, put off by the cost of the gear I think, and fear I wouldn't be very good, although I would be interested in having a go at a sprint/hc and the wscc have their own series (and do other clubs) which I should have a dabble in.

Also not been to santapod or another drag strip (or their drift days) but keen to have a go so might have to have a tickle there.

What I have really enjoyed is autosolo/autotesting, from local club level (pub carparks and grass evening events), through national autosolo (btrda) and national autotests. Super friendly lot, very cheap motoring fun. Would need to check the regs for autosolo, and likely not be suited to autotesting, but do thing about an autosolo.


Totally the budget, if you spend £10k on this car there are a lot more obvious choices for the spend, but equally at £2250 you are expecting to spend something on getting a car together.
If the bodywork isnt holding you back from using the car for what you want then the line of least resistance has to be to keep it and the chassis mods to a minimum.
If the engine should do what you need it to, at least for now, and the chassis work to accommodate it works, then I would stuck with that. Have a read up about what the options are for the sump and hopefully something can be done there that gives a cost effective solution. Assuming you dont need to but mad time/effort/money into making it drivable, worst case if turns out is need change you have lost little and likely learnt a lot about the car and what you want/need in the process.

You will need a trailer and towbar, or at very least an easy way of getting hold of a trailer and tow vehicle, but that goes for almost anything. Even with the westfield being road legal I trailer it to trackdays incase it cant drive home. Usually I drive to autosolos/autotests in part as its in the regs for some events and did once have to drive back with only 5th, but even then if its a long away away or very well, out comes the trailer.

Garage doors, I guess without car-size doors it becomes a workshop not a garage! Or is this for a trailer?

Unless there is something wrong with it to start, I doubt the engine needs rebuilding, mechanical engines are actually fairly tough and if something breaks it normally fairly significant, and then if its a used bike/focus you bin it and get another rather than rebuild.

Presumably the electrics are basically engine (bike loom) and brakelights/headlight/indicators, so boils down to what state the bike loom is now in! What's the fueling carbs? Oblivious things to check are any big loom connectors including that to the ecu for corrosion/damp/damage, cam/crank position sensors? Urrm, not a bike expert and hard to thing without it infront of me. Fuel and spark...

Do you have photos of the engine/loom/bodywork close up?


Daniel

[daytonavrs]

I don't have right now but imagine if someone just took bike loom, switchgear etc and basically fitted it loosely spliced, i.e. far from finished but enough to prove working.

Its basically been test fit but in no way complete......I don't have comprehensive pics sorry.

That said, it has started at least once so proving the basics are there ( lights also come on etc, but actually, thinking I should probably remove those?)
Also quite keen to retro-RF86 the bodywork but speaking to Dermot on that, if he can help. His main advice was "get rid of it!" though lol

I'm a bit more persistant than that.....if it really really winds me the wrong way ( its getting there but I'm still optomistic ) then I might take his advice. I've never owned anything remotely like this and for the money

Other stuff:

Got some doors for my oversized ( bigger than single garage) coming and will be sorting the towbar fitting. Either diy or professional but my first quote for fitting with specific wiring based on mobile fitting came in about £700, wasn't too keen on that but also not keen on the bypass relay with it being relative modern car ( I would ideally want to use my old Fabia, but the mk1 vRS was never type approved ..... joke when the 1.4 and even 3 cylinder 1.2 are no doubt approved.....some nonsense about them not liking the bumper). But the trouble is insurance and all that.

Another issue I have the garage really filled a little bit with crap Got several 1000 x 2000ad comics to shift ....
did recently sell 2 MGF seats that were original part fabric for the ones I'd upgraded to full leather so getting there.....I'm sure as soon as I have the double doors on the garage then I'll feel more secure, having a place for it to call home and dry rather than worn tarpaulins. I'm not too bad with house hoarding but tend to use the garage for anything I think might remotely come in useful in future......sometimes pays sometimes not....

[daytonavrs]

I'm going to replace the massive wheels with some genuine 13" and very tempted to remove all the existing bodywork for something more purposed to the car

Im struggling with starting, its almost catching with tiniest amount of throttle but any choke and repeatedly attempting to start is leading to just backfiring.
Just getting too many backfires at the moment so something is way off
I tried measuring volts on the input side of one of the coil sides today it seemed to be only reading about 1v while cranking (the other side did similar but at one point closer up to 11v)
Haven't done a resistance on both coils yet......
Battery is good.
Looked at fueling, i've introduced guage that I found amongst the spares suggesting its about 2psi if thats to be trusted so doesn't look like its fuel.
(Could be the carbs i've adjusted all the screws to 2 turns at the moment I think the standard it 2 and a half)> I did get it started ok

Also may I ask Is the consensus I should definitely pull off all lights, indicators, brakelights etc attempted on this car?
I just don't have any confidence at the moment.
I've contacted a few people I think I may seek for help, just having the engine starting and idleing would be a nice target.
Be far easier if I can get a mobile bike engine mechanic who knows his stuff.

I'm also getting a nice lot of blackbird spares for the sum of £200 reduced from AB spares who are clearing a load of good cbr1100x spares, why not.

[daytonavrs]

Just some pics of the rat's nest

No real progress but I do have some doors to get for updating my garage so I can dry store properly without tarpaulins

[daytonavrs]

In addition to engine spares have 4 ff1600 wheels won from eBay 13"

[Jim Spencer]

Hi

From Experience..

The First thing I'd do is get some WD40 on the bits going rusty, wrap it up well and get your garage sorted out..

Apart from somewhere nice to work it gives you time to think as you can leave things half done while you seek advice, you can take your time etc etc

Then - I'd suggest you do exactly this:-

daytonavrs said:

Also may I ask Is the consensus I should definitely pull off all lights, indicators, brakelights etc attempted on this car?

I've contacted a few people I think I may seek for help, just having the engine starting and idleing would be a nice target.

Be far easier if I can get a mobile bike engine mechanic who knows his stuff.

I'd add in removing the handbrake too!

When you're stripping the lights etc off, just take your time and work your way back through the wiring, I suspect that once you've done that you'll end up with a much smaller 'nest'..
Or
As you suggested the mobile bike guy will do this in minutes..
Take the opportunity to ask whatever questions you have, I've yet to come across anybody who isn't happy to help people learn the basics as it helps them when you call them back in - when you're stuck!

I see you've found some wheels, look out for some secondhand ACB10's (6.0/21-13 front & 7.0/22-13 rear) or slicks / wets in similar size
Or nip down to Silverstone/Brands/Donnington when the formula ford lads are next racing there's always somebody flogging a set..

And eventually you'll end up with a RF86 Van Diemen with a nice bike engine conversion done, and be out competing in it..

Edited by Jim Spencer on Tuesday 3rd March 08:56

[RussBost]

There's some proper rubbish being spouted on here!

Firstly, I really do think you need to get your head around what you actually want to do.

You bought the car for next to nothing, so, if it's not suited to what you actually want, then get it running (which immediately makes it waaay more attractive to a purchaser) & flog it to someone that actually wants something like it on the road

If you fancy something like that road legal it can most certainly be done just take a look at furorecars.co.uk - the first car I got through SVA, as it was then, was based on an old Formula Ford chassis which had been thoroughly mullered b4 I got it. I fitted it with 2 x1000cc bike engines in the back one driving each rear wheel - now that WAS a bit of a challenge at SVA!
I can't see how the column/rack is mounted, that could cause some headaches as could seat belt mounting height & overall ground clearance. Pedals forward of the axle line is never a great idea, but some crash protection/crumple zone is fairly simple to add within the nose

If you're going the track route, then surely you'd be better to buy a track car? Most trackdays don't allow open wheel cars, so it would need mudguards, if looking at sprint/hillclimb it would never be competitive with cars purpose built to do just that

Taking a track car that has been substantially modified for road use & then trying to backwards engineer undoing all the mods is crazy, just buy something that's unmodified in the first place & built for track use - plus they are cheaper than similar cars that have passed IVA

The Blackbird engine is a cracking engine - IN A BIKE! - it's most common use in cars has, of course, been in 7's & used inline it's useless without at minimum Accusump (it fails to lube no.3 rod & piston, with the inevitable outcome), or for serious track use, dry sump. Used in the orientation you have it, ie as it was in the bike, then provided it's been mounted at a similar angle to that in the bike I doubt it would ever give any problems, certainly on the road. For track use I would still suggest Accusump as a bit of belt & braces approach

All IMHO of course

[Jim Spencer]

RussBost said:

, if looking at sprint/hillclimb it would never be competitive with cars purpose built to do just that

No you're right it wouldn't.. not at the sharp end.. but at club (the old NatB) events it should be just fine, there's plenty of bike engine cars been done and they're generally a good way of going very quickly for minimal outlay - looking at the spec of this on the original ebay add suggests that it'd not a bad place to start - and at such a low cost why wouldn't you, the 'bang for the buck' is tremendous.

The blackbird engine has (and is) run on the hills and for sprints - and yes in the orientation it's in then it's got a reasonable chance of working just fine.

It's certainly worth the small bit of investment to get it into a running condition and suitable for an environment where it can be used and that would be more than suitable for the Javelin series or the local club meetings.

Certainly if the OP thinks it's not right for him, stick it on uphillracers and I doubt it'd hang around for long..

[daytonavrs]

I prefer the route and idea of going semi-historic with it, keeping engine work as a lot has gone into that but less misty about the lectrics and body which is bastardised to fit.

May use it needs must where needed, they will work, but already got hold of 2 original panels thanks to Dermot, still needing quite a few but a good start.

As mentioned going to pick up a sizeable amount of engine spares, effectively spare engine for £200, typo'd earlier it was AB performance
(who I might end up consulting for help, need a chat with them but they seem to do similar).

[daytonavrs]

Now acquired the more original/ size 13s wheels
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Formula-Ford-FF1600-Wel...

Also acquired 2 panels from Dermot, so on its way to originality/ less chunkiness.
So far the centre bodywork before the nose panel and a rear panel.
( At very least will still be needing nose, cockpit l/r, the tail/engine cover, and also a screen to start to look anything like original/ semi complete)

Also a nice used pair of double doors collected. Pricely sum of £30! Though paying someone probably considerably more to assist me to fit them.
Going to AB this weekend to get the engine "backup spares" so may have a chat to see if they have any interest in helping.

[daytonavrs]

Also ordered a cheap fireblade style fuel pump
- Despite having a psi gauge along with the spares and it suggests about 2psi after much repeated advice going to sling the "facet" mini pump style thing and try with a blade style pump.
Interesting to see if this helps sort out the starting and running to be more consistent

Had suggestions to remove all the stuff so I can have the frame holes/mods welder up and powder coated but this is pretty intimidating for me, I would have to log all the progress done so far, literally removing the engine too.....I suppose at least that way it will be sorted perfectly ?

[daytonavrs]

Putting together some of my parts acquisition, need modifying the tail etc, and remove lights, extra support for the wider floor etc.
but actually could have been a lost worse, pretty happy I think it will work with original tail modified a bit should fit ok ?
Its meant to fit original engine so not quite sitting right now but I think there is some extra skin underneath preventing it from seating so should be modifiable. Same I think with the under engine sections to fit.

The 13in alloys will replace whats on.
Still need cockpit sides and a bit more but actually thinking this is way more suitable than the "zip" kit or once finished at least?

- Opinions on my direction?

Edited by daytonavrs on Saturday 21st March 15:15

[daytonavrs]

Stripped the old false underbody and support rods to get to the original body shape but needing quite a few body panels to finish off closer to the original shape....and just general tidying ( needs electric tidying on the dash seriously plus running help).

Besides corona now facing serious back pain issues, gotta question whether I'm going to see this through to completion....

[dhutch]

Sounds good, keep us in the loop.

[daytonavrs]

Thank you Hutch

In technical terms not an awful lot progressing, recently did some cosmetics painting up of the chassis/bits so its looks a bit cleaner
Pretty meanial but this has some reinforcement of my interest in the car as I haven't done a lot with a bad back and being at work too

Having a look at the digidash wiring and trying to tidy up and understanding the wiring better at the same time.
Its kind of cobbled so looking to seperate the footwell and mechanical areas with somewhere to stow the actual wiring and tidy it up

Looking over the brakes/balancer which seems a bit of a mess and seeing if I need to replace out, beyond may be needing refreshing braking etc.

Trying to organise some mechanical help now no longer on complete lockdown, be good to be convinced it will run for a reasonable time as its only ever started momentarily when I could get any kind of start, so thats my priority is on the starting problem