Kit car industry dead in 10 years

[leerandle]

I'd been looking at an Ultima RS or RCR GT40 for a while now, but with so much uncertainty, then there is no way I would consider purchasing either. I am not sure if the ban on all petrol and diesel from 2030 means actually every new car, like other people have said, there are usually some caveats to the blanket statement. Surely some low volume manufacturers would be allowed to continue to make ICE cars as I am sure some of them haven't got the budgets to start redesigning/converting to all electric (and may not even want too). Its a very sad time.............

[Equus]

leerandle said:

Surely some low volume manufacturers would be allowed to continue to make ICE cars as I am sure some of them haven't got the budgets to start redesigning/converting to all electric...

That's the same bucket of sand that most of the industry is sticking its head in, despite the Government having provided encouragement __and funding__ for them to think to the future for many years now.

I think you're over-estimating the very little political and economic importance and influence that's what's left of the industry still retains.

[Chris-S]

I've a friend that works at Morgan and I asked him this very question this morning - what are they going to do come 2030 (or '35 if they go hybrid).

Just can't see a Morgan working with an EV powertrain as the noise is surely a large chunk of the appeal?? Then again, perhaps we'll just have to get over ourselves and move on!

[Equus]

Chris-S said:

Just can't see a Morgan working with an EV powertrain...

Oddly enough, Morgan have been quite progressive where EV's are concerned and are well placed to make the move. They've done a lot of research (some funded by the Government grants that have been available) and have already built and tested two entirely separate EV platforms (the four-wheeled Plus E and the three wheeled EV3 - the latter almost making production before being shelved).

They could launch EV models virtually tomorrow, if they wanted to.

[Chris-S]

Equus said:

Oddly enough, Morgan have been quite progressive where EV's are concerned and are well placed to make the move. They've done a lot of research (some funded by the Government grants that have been available) and have already built and tested two entirely separate EV platforms (the four-wheeled Plus E and the three wheeled EV3 - the latter almost making production before being shelved).

They could launch EV models virtually tomorrow, if they wanted to.

It wasn't their ability to do it I was wondering about really, I heard about the EV development a while ago - it was how they feel the appeal of their product might suffer and how to address that.

There is a very vocal group who seem completely set on the view that the noise is essential to the experience, and to a point I do get that.

[Equus]

Chris-S said:

There is a very vocal group who seem completely set on the view that the noise is essential to the experience, and to a point I do get that.

Yes, as you say, that group will just have to get over themselves and move on.

If they think that the Government will deviate from its climate change commitments so that they can have an exhaust that pops and bangs, they're going to be sadly disappointed, I fear.

[walamai]

VxDuncan said:

Not at the moment, it applies to everything. Unless this changes you won't be able to register a kit car after 2024.

Do you have a link/reference for this? I'm searching online and not able to find anything.

I'm in the middle of design for an electric scratch built car (essentially a https://midlana.com/ but with Nissan Leaf powertrain). I've spoken to Mira about EEC R100 certification and they've quoted £5-6k. Not thrilled to spend that, but it isn't a complete showstopper.

There are several aftermarket 'controller' options for the Leaf drivetrain now (and Tesla and others of course), so I can see a new industry springing up around this. Of course electric conversions are already plentiful.

This legislation that you refer to though (for lane keeping and emergency braking etc) could be a show stopper. I can't find references to it though, or any forum threads (on locost etc)?

[eliot]

walamai said:

VxDuncan said:

Not at the moment, it applies to everything. Unless this changes you won't be able to register a kit car after 2024.

Do you have a link/reference for this? I'm searching online and not able to find anything.

I'm in the middle of design for an electric scratch built car (essentially a https://midlana.com/ but with Nissan Leaf powertrain). I've spoken to Mira about EEC R100 certification and they've quoted £5-6k. Not thrilled to spend that, but it isn't a complete showstopper.

There are several aftermarket 'controller' options for the Leaf drivetrain now (and Tesla and others of course), so I can see a new industry springing up around this. Of course electric conversions are already plentiful.

This legislation that you refer to though (for lane keeping and emergency braking etc) could be a show stopper. I can't find references to it though, or any forum threads (on locost etc)?

Same here - got a mate with a seight that’s been waiting for an sva for about 10 years and has a cobra that just a chassis right now - he might need to get a move on

[Chris-S]

walamai said:

Do you have a link/reference for this? I'm searching online and not able to find anything.

I'm in the middle of design for an electric scratch built car (essentially a https://midlana.com/ but with Nissan Leaf powertrain). I've spoken to Mira about EEC R100 certification and they've quoted £5-6k. Not thrilled to spend that, but it isn't a complete showstopper.

There are several aftermarket 'controller' options for the Leaf drivetrain now (and Tesla and others of course), so I can see a new industry springing up around this. Of course electric conversions are already plentiful.

This legislation that you refer to though (for lane keeping and emergency braking etc) could be a show stopper. I can't find references to it though, or any forum threads (on locost etc)?

OT alert...

Come join us on the Midlana forum, we’d all be interested to see your ideas and progress! We’ve discussed EV powertrains a bit so it would be fantastic to see an actual build.

[dhutch]

walamai said:

Do you have a link/reference for this? I'm searching online and not able to find anything?

This.

My kit s a 1991 pre-SVA q plate, however till interested in keeping my finger on the pulse.

Daniel

[walamai]

I've done a bit of digging and the legislation itself is real.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/...

https://www.reuters.com/article/autos-brakes-un-id...

"Most of these technologies and systems are due to become mandatory as from May 2022 for new models and as from May 2024 for existing models."

I can't see anything about the UK explicitly adopting it, but given it's a UN standard, and is being adopted by Japan and the EU you'd have to assume it will become regulation here also. So I'd see that it would become part of compliance with a 'Normal IVA'.

However, I've seen nothing to confirm that this would become part of the "Basic IVA" (which includes amateur builds/kit cars). The whole point of the Basic IVA is that it isn't as onerous as a Normal IVA, so I'd be surprised if this was applied to the Basic IVA.

I'm not cancelling my plans just yet!

[Furyblade_Lee]

98elise said:

Furyblade_Lee said:

ElectricSoup said:

Steve Dean said:

The political announcement yesterday that no new petrol, diesel or hybrid cars will be allowed from 2030 raises some very interesting questions. If you are building an all new build kit car then you don't have long to do it. And when you have built it, will it have any value?

The questions and implications of all this could fill a whole library.

I've not seen a single statement of how the National Grid is going to provide all the power for the Electric vehicles that everyone is going to be forced to buy. To put this in some real world context ..... a friend who preaches about how they have a smart meter and go round their house turning off single light bulbs, has just purchased an Electric car and are crapping themselves as they've discovered that charging their car uses more electricity than all the appliances in their house being turned on at once.

Discuss !!!!!!!

Your mate's an idiot then, I did 10,000 miles in the first year of having an electric car, all on home charging. It added £250 to my annual electric bill, or about 2.5 tanks of fuel in my old car. Try doing 10,000 miles on 2.5 tanks of diesel. And the car was second hand and only cost my £10k to buy before the old "electric cars are too expensive" trope gets wheeled out.

Also, most cars are going to charge at night when there's excess capacity already, it's a non-issue with a bit of an upgrade to the national capacity, for which we have many years to plan.

"it's a non-issue with a bit of an upgrade to the national capacity, for which we have many years to plan"....... That is seriously one of the funniest things I have ever heard.

Did you do physics? The average driver will need 7kWh per day. That's like running a hob for an hour. If you spread that out over say 10 hours late evening to morning then you're looking at a 700wats. That won't even trouble a 13amp socket.

So you are saying it will take the same amount of energy to drive your electric car for a day as an electric hob uses for an hour??????

[walamai]

Furyblade_Lee said:

So you are saying it will take the same amount of energy to drive your electric car for a day as an electric hob uses for an hour??????

98elise wasn't saying that at all, they were saying the "average driver will need 7kWh per day", which works out to about 20 miles per day. So they were comparing a 20 mile drive to using a hob for an hour. (And later clarified the example was for 4 hotplates.)

Both activities would use around 7kW Hours of energy.

[98elise]

walamai said:

Furyblade_Lee said:

So you are saying it will take the same amount of energy to drive your electric car for a day as an electric hob uses for an hour??????

98elise wasn't saying that at all, they were saying the "average driver will need 7kWh per day", which works out to about 20 miles per day. So they were comparing a 20 mile drive to using a hob for an hour. (And later clarified the example was for 4 hotplates.)

Both activities would use around 7kW Hours of energy.

Yes, its puting the average daily energy requirement into perspective using familiar appliances.

A better example than a hob (to avoid ambiguity) would be using a decent electric shower for 35-40 minutes (based on our 11kW shower)

[Psycho Warren]

walamai said:

The whole point of the Basic IVA is that it isn't as onerous as a Normal IVA, so I'd be surprised if this was applied to the Basic IVA.

I'm not cancelling my plans just yet!

you cant even have airbags and many modern safety systems on IVA currently so to incluee lane departure etc would only happen as a complete overhaul of the IVA system aimed at baning kit cars. no sign of any desire to do that yet.

[Gecko1978]

Been looking at kit cars alot of late as a mapped Audi/BMW/Merc as a modified car does not appeal. I drove a caterham at Silverstone few years back and enjoyed it. An some 15 years ago went to Stoneleigh. My guess is it's not EV that will kill the last players off, its pcp on a new Audi/BMW/Merc. Spoke to a lad at work told me about his new A class what he liked most was the updated technology like apple car play. He said it made connecting his phone really easy. It's not something I think about when driving basic bluetooth does just fine an even thats not a real issue. But if young people want things like that then a Westfield is never going to appeal.

[smn159]

Gecko1978 said:

Been looking at kit cars alot of late as a mapped Audi/BMW/Merc as a modified car does not appeal. I drove a caterham at Silverstone few years back and enjoyed it. An some 15 years ago went to Stoneleigh. My guess is it's not EV that will kill the last players off, its pcp on a new Audi/BMW/Merc. Spoke to a lad at work told me about his new A class what he liked most was the updated technology like apple car play. He said it made connecting his phone really easy. It's not something I think about when driving basic bluetooth does just fine an even thats not a real issue. But if young people want things like that then a Westfield is never going to appeal.

Apple Car Play is an easy retrofit into a lot of older stuff though - I have it in my 2002 BMW 330 Touring

[Gecko1978]

smn159 said:

Gecko1978 said:

Been looking at kit cars alot of late as a mapped Audi/BMW/Merc as a modified car does not appeal. I drove a caterham at Silverstone few years back and enjoyed it. An some 15 years ago went to Stoneleigh. My guess is it's not EV that will kill the last players off, its pcp on a new Audi/BMW/Merc. Spoke to a lad at work told me about his new A class what he liked most was the updated technology like apple car play. He said it made connecting his phone really easy. It's not something I think about when driving basic bluetooth does just fine an even thats not a real issue. But if young people want things like that then a Westfield is never going to appeal.

Apple Car Play is an easy retrofit into a lot of older stuff though - I have it in my 2002 BMW 330 Touring

a lad of 26 who is buying an A class coupe because he likes the Apple Car play is never going to buy a caterham or build similar. I am 43 and when I was 26 had an Impreza with a remap and full exhaust system it had a tape player but I could care less, young people today care way more about the tech an the look than how it drives.

[mickrick]

super7 said:

Just imagine a Caterham / Atom with a light weight motor and battery pack.....

Only in my worst nightmares.
At the moment there's no such thing as a lightweight battery pack.
99% of the experience is exhaust and induction noise, smell, and working up and down the gearbox.
Take that away and with what are you left?
Now go stand in a corner and have a word with yourself!

Edited by mickrick on Sunday 9th January 10:38

[dhutch]

Exhaust and induction noise, smell, and working up and down the gearbox is only a huge amount of it because it is a huge amount of it.

The whine of a brushless motor launching you and not a lot else from 0 to 60 in 4secs will give a lot of people a boost.

Still a huge amount of skill and enjoyment getting control of the steering and fast pedal right. Especially if / assuming that with work they can get the power modulation right so it's still you controling the slip point.

It will be different, the same a V8 Corvette isn't the same as an BEC Westfield, but both have their place I think.

Equally, I've got a 1924 Austin, and if that can do 100 years on this planet, I think some sort of ICE car will continue to exist for the enthusiast for as long as there are people who think it's fun to do that!

Plus, legislation allowing, hopefully there will be some form is dispensation for new specials/kits/racing cars as well as historics for a long time yet. We shall see.