Stoneleigh 2007

[FNG]

fuoriserie said:

I also think that a few new rebodies, just like the Veranti and the Retroforza, based on those excellent platforms, that are in my opinion, the Mx5 and the Mr2, could create a new niche.

I'd like to see the good work and craftsmanship that goes into rebodies to be channeled into full kits. I think the cost of a rebody is prohibitive considering you basically retain the donor's driving dynamics and cockpit (and potential to rust).

So if these companies take a step up I think we'll have an embarrassment of riches on our hands.

Even without, there's still a lot of potential donors that can be used. It does generally need some work to move the engines to the rear but it's worthwhile effort!

fuoriserie said:

Nobody is considering Suv or 4x4 ? any reason why ? I like the DAKAR conversions, and they are a great concept. maybe a few modern designs could help....

That's a good point, I've always liked the Dakar and Eagle RV and 4x4s have boomed recently. Although more as status symbols than offroaders, maybe that's why?

There's loads of V8 Range Rovers available with tired bodies and LPG conversions for £1000, and no need for a new chassis if push comes to shove. Or even SVA?



I have this problem that I want to get stuck back into pulling a new design together but as Joe T says above it either takes over your life or takes years...

[spaximus]

I agree with many of the comments here. Some of the manufacturers did then selves no favours by displaying what can only be described as poor workmanship at best, rubbish at worst. There is also a world of differance in the way they set their stall out. Ultima, Westfield, GD all had good stands with keen sales people, whilst others were less than welcoming.
The big problem is how do you price a car which you build your self. I looked at the Ultima £35000 was the figure they said needed to build one £70000 to build a top speced one with every single extra and 700-800bhp. Now that is serious production car price bracket.

My biggest issue though is that we get a talented chassis designer who then won't spend the money on a designer to cloth it well.

[FNG]

fuoriserie said:

FNG said:

People go mad for the Raffo Belva and the Libra etc so develop that kind of format, leave off the roof and doors, preferably with more modern creases to give it some longevity and some short overhangs to give a real statement of intent and lowest polar moment, and to my mind you have ten years' supply of kits to an eager market.

I totally agree with you on this idea, but it was done in the past with all those Mini derivatives, that most of us didn't know about ,or forgot that some of them still exist today!!!!!!.!

Check these pictures, that have very interesting design ideas, that can be updated and incoporated to a new mid-engine design, apart fron the blue, that is manufactured today, and the last Costin design......

Great little mid-engine cars, with a more affordable build price.

You're abslutely right Italo, with one condition: if not a replica, it's rare that an original design works really well and captures a wide market.

The Libra and Murtaya have managed to look stunning but individual without being too quirky or wacky or dull, but many don't. With greatest of respect to Joe T, the Costin doesn't look up to par in the modern market in my eyes. I think there's a great base for a successful car there and I bet it's a hoot on track, but the styling puts me right off immediately, there's not enough going on. The rear is interesting but to me the rest has nothing to say and so looks very ordinary, and more dated than early 1990s.

With well proportioned aesthetics, the right driven wheels, low build cost using an absolute maximum of donor parts, and styling that's fairly contemporary but not bland, I think you could have a mainstream kit. Miss one of those factors and you're consigned to the backwaters.

Unfortunately with the exception of Libra and Murtaya as said above, and many replicas of professionally designed classic supercars like GT40, T70, Stratos, RS200, Cobra, Healey, what have you, there's barely a car in the kit industry that can really hold its head up on merit and I think that's what's lacking, and that's why Sevens are so popular.

It's a higher end vehicle, but the other promising one to my mind is andy_gtt's car which looks largely brilliant. I've high hopes for that one and hope it shakes up the Ultima buying end of the industry.

Given a front engine / RWD roadster that can park next to a BMW Z4 and not look the poor relation from 5 metres away, I think that'd put a big dent in the Sevens market. It's only a matter of shaping the GRP differently and thinking about the cockpit a la GTM, it's not impossible.

That was the sound of a challenge being issued!

[timsta]

ferg said:

Um, what is this?

The car, not the bloke!

[FNG]

spaximus said:

My biggest issue though is that we get a talented chassis designer who then won't spend the money on a designer to clothe it well.

Exactly.

Both the Murtaya and Libra were professionally styled.

Engineers rarely style cars well. I can't, not really. I keep ending up with the same thing, with minor variations!

It's the only sensible thing to do to commission a stylist and derive a truly attractive design. Preferably in consultation with some texts on aerodynamics... cars are complex things and you need quite a few subject matter experts to design one that's competent in the critical areas!

I can design chassis and put component packages together and derive suspension geometry that works pretty much straight out of the box but I can't deliver a pretty, proportioned and efficient bodyshape that doesn't look like something you've seen before!

[FNG]

timsta said:

ferg said:

Um, what is this?

The car, not the bloke!

SDR Sportscars VStorm.

www.sdrsportscars.co.uk

[andygtt]

[quote=FNG
It's a higher end vehicle, but the other promising one to my mind is andy_gtt's car which looks largely brilliant. I've high hopes for that one and hope it shakes up the Ultima buying end of the industry.
[/quote]

I'm flattered and glad you like my car, but there are two issues. Firstly I currently have no intention of going into full production with my car, it's purelly a hobbey... secondly my car is costing significantly less than the Ultima I built.

[Joe T]

I think this is a very interesting thread and welcome the feedback, the Costin was designed to look a bit Retro hence the quirkyness with Bill Barranco finishing of the Styling who was at the time a manager at I.A.D and now heads up Autovision a big US Styling house, the prototype is exactly that and wil be developed further.

But it is hard for most companies to afford such extravagent expenses during development. As you say most engineers will have a go at a chassis its just a few raw materials and time.
But to pay a designer, or learn how to use a design package like Katia and produce something a buck can be made from to produce more bodies, is massive expense.

Maybe whats happened is people expectations have risen above what this industry can provide at the given price point.

Working the RCR stand over the weekend, I did feel the heat from the pricing, but where can you get an Ally mono chassis car latest tech billet suspension all rolling with everything minus engine and box for 21k, but its an old style, it seems you cant win.

Well this will be here soon, these are prototype pics, but its modern etc http://silicon.fastnet.co.uk/speciali its undergoing some more changes but will be on show at Carlisle (US) next weekend.

Edited by Joe T on Wednesday 9th May 22:34

[cymtriks]

spaximus said:

My biggest issue though is that we get a talented chassis designer who then won't spend the money on a designer to cloth it well.

Do you think that a good chassis / poor body is more likely if the designer is a talented chassis designer?

Personally I've found just as many good bodies on poor chassis designs. Just look at that "spaceframe" a couple of pages back.

And then of course there are are poor bodies on poor chassis.

The styling of some kits is actually the hardest thing for me to understand. How can people get it so wrong? Don't they ever stand back and look at it? Do they really spend the hundreds of hours of filler, sand, filler, sand, paint, more filler,etc blindfolded? Really bizarre.

I suppose someone will grind out the old chesnut about engineers not being artists which only shows that they've never met an engineer who was smart enough, or bothered enough, to do both.

[chezgilo]

For anyone that likes Cobras and Rushes here are some pics of our cars that we went to Stoneleigh 2007 in:

[pic] www.thegoodwebcompany.com/stoneleigh/cobra1.jpg [/pic]
[pic] www.thegoodwebcompany.com/stoneleigh/cobra2.jpg [/pic]
[pic] www.thegoodwebcompany.com/stoneleigh/cobra3.jpg [/pic]
[pic] www.thegoodwebcompany.com/stoneleigh/cobra4.jpg [/pic]
[pic] www.thegoodwebcompany.com/stoneleigh/cobra5.jpg [/pic]
[pic] www.thegoodwebcompany.com/stoneleigh/6.jpg [/pic]
[pic] www.thegoodwebcompany.com/stoneleigh/cobra7.jpg [/pic]
[pic] www.thegoodwebcompany.com/stoneleigh/cobra8.jpg [/pic]

[chezgilo]

Here's one more from inside the sodden tent:

[pic] www.thegoodwebcompany.com/stoneleigh/9.jpg [/pic]

[chezgilo]

Can anyone tell me how to get these photo actually in the site rather than as links? I've done as the Formatting Codes tells me but no joy. Very annoying!

[chezgilo]

Well what do you know - plain and simple HTML. Why isn't that in the instructions?
Here they are again in easy view...

<img src="www.thegoodwebcompany.com/stoneleigh/cobra1.jpg">
<img src="www.thegoodwebcompany.com/stoneleigh/cobra2.jpg">
<img src="www.thegoodwebcompany.com/stoneleigh/cobra3.jpg">
<img src="www.thegoodwebcompany.com/stoneleigh/cobra4.jpg">
<img src="www.thegoodwebcompany.com/stoneleigh/cobra5.jpg">
<img src="www.thegoodwebcompany.com/stoneleigh/6.jpg">
<img src="www.thegoodwebcompany.com/stoneleigh/7.jpg">
<img src="www.thegoodwebcompany.com/stoneleigh/8.jpg">
<img src="www.thegoodwebcompany.com/stoneleigh/9.jpg">

[chezgilo]

Well I give up. They worked in the preview but not here. Sod it.

[FNG]

chezgilo said:

Here's one more from inside the sodden tent:

Take the spaces out from after the [pic] and before the [/pic]

[FNG]

Joe T said:

I think this is a very interesting thread and welcome the feedback, the Costin was designed to look a bit Retro hence the quirkyness with Bill Barranco finishing of the Styling who was at the time a manager at I.A.D and now heads up Autovision a big US Styling house, the prototype is exactly that and wil be developed further.

But it is hard for most companies to afford such extravagent expenses during development. As you say most engineers will have a go at a chassis its just a few raw materials and time.
But to pay a designer, or learn how to use a design package like Katia and produce something a buck can be made from to produce more bodies, is massive expense.

The price can be horrendous (but a lot of it is labour - which you may have at your disposal already, or do yourself).

Last body and moulds I did cost over £20k, outsourced. Designed on AutoCad wireframe, took sections through the car at regular intervals. Didn't need Catia, that's overkill if you're making a buck using traditional methods.

I don't agree that expenditure on styling is an extravagance. Appearance is so critical to a non-replica kit that without a design that grabs the public's attention it will be an uphill battle. If the styling's clumsy then isn't the rest something of a waste of effort? You'd get so much more back for a little more initial investment.

ETA: "you" being collective / generic, not Joe T!

Edited by FNG on Thursday 10th May 08:51

[FNG]

Can't post long replies from this PC, sorry for the disjointed response here.

Joe T said:

Maybe whats happened is people expectations have risen above what this industry can provide at the given price point.

I'm sure expectations are higher - ordinary cars are very sophisticated compared to fifteen years ago and it's natural that one expects more and more.

Last year I was starting some concept work with a work colleague and tapped up an acquaintance in automotive styling. Before my last venture he'd expressed an interest in styling a complete car, probably knowing that in the sector he was in, he'd never see his own design on the road any other way.

Nothing came of that but it seems to me there must be some eager design graduates out there keen to make an impression but are being given doorhandles to work on - give them an opportunity to get their design translated to real life and you won't have to pay the going rate.

[FNG]

Joe T said:

Working the RCR stand over the weekend, I did feel the heat from the pricing, but where can you get an Ally mono chassis car latest tech billet suspension all rolling with everything minus engine and box for 21k, but its an old style, it seems you cant win.

I reckon that kit's fantastic value at that price and would be straight to your door if I was in that price bracket. A real high quality product and to my mind, good to see appropriate underpinnings for replicas of such pedigree cars.

I hope it goes well, a shame that in the current climate there are relatively few people with the budget for these cars.

[FNG]

andygtt said:

FNG said:

It's a higher end vehicle, but the other promising one to my mind is andygtt's car which looks largely brilliant. I've high hopes for that one and hope it shakes up the Ultima buying end of the industry.

I'm flattered and glad you like my car, but there are two issues. Firstly I currently have no intention of going into full production with my car, it's purelly a hobbey... secondly my car is costing significantly less than the Ultima I built.

Sorry Andy, I thought you were intending to make more than one (not full production, that's a very big step and probably a backward one!) and hope you do sell some. Be a shame not to see some financial reward for a great effort and the will / determination to see it through.

Driving your very own design is an amazing reward in itself but a few sales couldn't hurt (hint hint)

Anyway the fact you're doing it and it's working out very well should be a shot in the arm to others scruffing around in their sheds trying to launch their own.

I wonder if your car will cost you any less than Ultima's kit costs them? Sale price is another matter!

[neilrallying]

To put my thoughts into this one;-
The styling issue is an interesting one as it is clearly a personal opinion as to what works and what does not. One thing that is for sure is that it does not need to be the massive expense that eveyone seems to think. There are lots of designers out there who are professionals and who would love to get the chance to do a full car and who will work for less than you might think.
I have heard lots of rumours about how much we spent on developing the Murtaya, I can assure you that it is not the mega buck project that the rumour mill seems to suggest.
We created our car by carefully approaching highly skilled people with a proposal to help us create the sportscar that we wanted.
We then personally worked ourselves to the point of exhaustion for 9 months putting in mega hours doing lots of work creating all of the models, prototypes, tooling and then the fun bit of building the mule and then demo cars.
One area that we are very lucky with is that one of our Directors is a very experienced Catia user who can certainly design a good chassis, and granted this can be expensive if you try to outsource it. However it seems that many people are capable of designing a good chassis, the clothing of the chassis appears to be the issue if this thread is right.
Any project like this is about understanding where your (or your company's) strengths and weaknesses are and putting together a sound plan to address the problem areas.
The car industry is full of talented and passionate people, you just have to spend some time finding the right ones and putting a proposal in front of them that gets them fired up (and the rewards do not have to be financial ones!!).
I would be happy to talk to anyone about this who is interested, I have no secrets about who we used in designing the Murtaya or about how we did it.
Neil.