KITCAR DESIGN sketches/concepts year 2008-10

[andygtt]

ferg said:

Hey Italo!
What do you make of this model which was shown on the Compete Kit Car stand at Stoneleigh.





It's a final year design student model by a guy named Garry Gooderham. The idea is that it was designed around a Locost chassis as an alternative to the traditional Seven bodywork.....

I can definatelly see the were his ideas have come from, this should definatelly be explored by a decent company as if it turned into a £5k extra option over a 7 type it should be a winner.

[ferg]

Have you been following the thread on Locostbuilders, Andy?

[andygtt]

Davi said:

I think one thing very much under-represented in the kit car scene is practicality.

We see in the kit car forums often enough, can I use x as a daily driver, how about y. Many want proper protection from the weather and basic useability from a kit rather than something purely suited for the occasional weekend drive when it's warm and sunny.

For some reason as soon as they become even slightly practical they start to look like something out of a 2nd grade wood work class.

This is entirelly what has caused me to scratch build my own car, there is just nothing at the high end that has the practicality I wanted along with the performance and looks.

[JenkinsComp]

fuoriserie said:

grahambell said:

fuoriserie said:

Graham,

Will try to see what i can come up with, but I would need an available kit chassis to base it on, to make the project realistic.

Lots of Cobra replica chassis about... Including the Python of course, which I mention because it's 2" longer than standard to provide bigger doors.

Also Sebring's Healey replica chassis.

Then there's a car (can't remember the name) Autotune debuted a couple of years back as a sort of convertible sports GT using Sierra parts, which was another case of nice concept, shame about the styling. 0

You never know Italo, they might actually be interested in a better looking design as they seem to have given up on the one they had judging by the fact they're no longer showing the car on their stand.

Checked those manafacturers but no chassi pistures, will try with Cobra kit chassis, but in the meantime i found this very interesting chassis.

Check this out:

www.dragonmotorcars.com/frameALU.html

and for pictures of their kit:

www.dragonmotorcars.com/

Very interesting sportscar.

Here is a picture of my chassis, just after it was painted.

[JenkinsComp]

Like the dragon chassis...would be even better with an LS7...

[cymtriks]

Practical car-

How about basing a new car on the Elan Plus 2?

To be SVA compliant the pop up lights would have to go so I would propose a Caterham 21 style bonnet (correct "DNA" and looks great)and, to match the new round front lights, twin round rear lights. I'd also round off the rear wheel arch (looks more modern) and recess the wiper blades (SVA safety).

All the original stuff would fit so as long as original Elan parts can be sourced there will be windscreens, doors, carpets, etc.

Spyder already make a Ford Zetec Elan plus 2 chassis so even that is already available.

sports car-

One easy way to get a great body would be to slightly modify an older design. How about an MGA but with recessed rear lights and a revised front to lose the vertical lights, chrome and grill. This would make the car look different enough to stand on its own but would give a ready made master for moulds from the front axle line back. The engine bay is big enough to fit much bigger engines and trim etc could be sourced from the huge network of MG restorers.

off the wall idea-

look up some of cars on deco rides . The Maserati boat tail and the Zephyr fastback are amazing but no one makes anything like this in the UK. Why not?

[Sam_68]

cymtriks said:

Practical car-

How about basing a new car on the Elan Plus 2?

To be SVA compliant the pop up lights would have to go so I would propose a Caterham 21 style bonnet (correct "DNA" and looks great)and, to match the new round front lights, twin round rear lights. I'd also round off the rear wheel arch (looks more modern) and recess the wiper blades (SVA safety).

All the original stuff would fit so as long as original Elan parts can be sourced there will be windscreens, doors, carpets, etc.

Spyder already make a Ford Zetec Elan plus 2 chassis so even that is already available.

Surely the market for this is already sewn up by the Spyder Zetec Plus 2? It works out much cheaper... the original bodyshell, is effectively free, because if you buy a doggy Plus 2 you can sell all the original running gear before fitting the Spyder conversion parts, plus, of course, there is the potential to retain the original donor identity, so free road tax, no SVA and easy emissions testing.

Out of interest, have you seen the new(ish) Elite based car that Spyder is now marketing? Not to my personal taste (I think they've ruined one of the most beautiful shapes ever with modifications that are all subtly wrong), but it does pretty much what you are suggesting, only based on the '50's Elite rather than the Plus 2.

[JenkinsComp]

If I was able to guarantee that I could do another car after the Veeteor, then I would do a small, fast, fun, town car that is green and good looking. Similar to the requirement of the automotive X prize really.

[url]http://auto.xprize.org/[/url]

It would be a proper modern day Mini. Ie not a premium product!

To me, there is no way of making a decent amount of money making sportscars as a guy by yourself.
There are so many available that it is a very crowded market.
The longest and best selling cars of all time are the VW Beetle, Citroen 2CV and the Mini.
All of which were very basic, had to be reliable and cheap, but also looked good (well maybe not the 2CV but obviously alot of people thought differently to me!). Kit cars have a massive advantage over production cars in the UK because insurance is so cheap - to a family on a budget things like the price of insurance can often swing a decision on which car to buy.

Nowadays we have awful abortions like the Smart, G Wiz etc which might be cheap but they certainly aren't safe, fun or fast, and aren't even very green either. There is absolutely nothing available right now that is small eco friendly and appealing at the moment. Surely, with this sector being the largest of all car markets, there must be an opportunity waiting to be pounced upon? The GTM Rossa is the best small hardtop kit car I have seen, but it's only a 2 seater so not an option for most people who just want a small cheap car and don't care really who makes it.

My basic spec would have to be very light and strong, but cheap so a spaceframe chassis with integral cage (like the Veeteor) is a must. A mid mounted bike engine making an easy 120bhp via 6 sequential gears fitted under the back seats would create space up front for electric motors to power the front wheels, whilst still leaving space for a hatchback behind. Performance of any car that is 500kg making 120bhp will be plentiful. The car would be rear wheel drive whilst powered by the bike engine, which would be ethanol fuelled with hydrogen injection unit to further increase economy. The body panels would be made from biodegradeable plastic. The interior would be basic but cleanly designed, instead of a plastic dashboard it'd use canvas slings to form storage space between the chassis tubes which would be painted and shaped to form part of the interior design. A simple and effective Stack dashboard provides all the instrumentation you need in one compact and light unit. 4 individual race style bucket seats which are light and safe in a crash would be used inside. The only luxuries would be air-con, and music. Maybe electric windows, but really anything like that is a waste of energy and mass.

Given the way that this country is going, small cars may become the only cars allowed at some point in the future.
But there is no small car that I would want to buy full stop right now.
They are all front wheel drive for a start!
I just got my annual parking permit renewal letter through from Westminster Council.
From now on, any car they consider to be "green" (and of course the person who decides what is green is a brainless fool who clearly has no clue about this subject) will be allowed to park free of charge anywhere in the borough, and will be exempt from the Kenstion Tax. Of course, if you have invested in some carbon offsetting scheme then that is ignored, or if you run a petrol or diesel car on biofuel that doesn't count either. Whoever is right or wrong about what makes a green car, the fact that there is such a huge financial incentive for having such a dangerous piece of shite like a G-Wiz will be more than enough for a great deal of non-car enthusiasts to buy one. Anyone who has been in one as I have will be shocked that such an unsafe piece of machinery that would have been out of date in the 1950s is allowed anywhere other than a waste disposal site, but clearly lots and lots of people are more bothered about saving money than their own safety or the amount of fun they get from driving. Which is what encourages me to build something that is actually worth having / safe / something you wouldn't be embarrassed to be seen in.

If I am to continue drivng, then I must consider building this car. I am convinced that even if I made a total cock up with the build it will still come out 100 times better than the G-Wiz or Smart. Anyone care to come up with a potential design for the body shape? It's just got to be good looking and fit around 4 adults without being too big.

Edited by JenkinsComp on Sunday 13th May 11:34

[JenkinsComp]

Wouldn't it be cool if some folks who frequent Pistonheads could get together and build an entry for the X Prize?

[url]http://auto.xprize.org/downloads/AXP_[/url]

Edited by JenkinsComp on Sunday 13th May 11:38

[andygtt]

ferg said:

Have you been following the thread on Locostbuilders, Andy?

Not seen it, what section is it in?

[ferg]

I see you found it Andy.
For those who haven't, get along and read how Gaz has gratefully accepted opinion as he's gone along and ended up with something that is (in my humble opinion) rather special.....

www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=59404

[fuoriserie]

ferg said:

I see you found it Andy.
For those who haven't, get along and read how Gaz has gratefully accepted opinion as he's gone along and ended up with something that is (in my humble opinion) rather special.....

www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=59404

Ferg,

Gaz did a great job, while taking into considerations the limitations of the locost chassis, and the design looks very much like a modern and affordable TVR.
Someone should snap the design quick !

Italo

[fuoriserie]

JenkinsComp said:

Wouldn't it be cool if some folks who frequent Pistonheads could get together and build an entry for the X Prize?

[url]http://auto.xprize.org/downloads/AXP_[/url]

Edited by JenkinsComp on Sunday 13th May 11:38

I think we could..........if others are interested why not..

[fuoriserie]

JenkinsComp said:

If I was able to guarantee that I could do another car after the Veeteor, then I would do a small, fast, fun, town car that is green and good looking. Similar to the requirement of the automotive X prize really.

[url]http://auto.xprize.org/[/url]

It would be a proper modern day Mini. Ie not a premium product!

To me, there is no way of making a decent amount of money making sportscars as a guy by yourself.
There are so many available that it is a very crowded market.
The longest and best selling cars of all time are the VW Beetle, Citroen 2CV and the Mini.
All of which were very basic, had to be reliable and cheap, but also looked good (well maybe not the 2CV but obviously alot of people thought differently to me!). Kit cars have a massive advantage over production cars in the UK because insurance is so cheap - to a family on a budget things like the price of insurance can often swing a decision on which car to buy.
t. Anyone care to come up with a potential design for the body shape? It's just got to be good looking and fit around 4 adults without being too big.

Edited by JenkinsComp on Sunday 13th May 11:34

The only car that would fit this design brief, would be a mid-engine 2 plus 2 or 4 seater, and the kitcar industry does have a few mid-engine chassis that could be used, for this project.

Sylva, Mev, Onyx, Aeon, with the smaller mid-engined sportscars, and maybe a few more that i've forgot....

You would need to lenghthen for the extra 2 small seats, and design a very stylish coupe, simple and affordable, that could be converted to alternative fuels if needed.

A hard brief , but achieveble, and if someone is up for it, we can have some fun and see if some manufacturer is willing to lend us a chassis for this project.
I like the idea, and it does make sense, if we all start thinking 2 to 5 years in advance.

Big car manufacturers are doing that already, and the kit industry should take notice, smaller cars are coming back, because we're all getting poorer......., just like in the 50's!!!!!!

I'm ready..... any other wants to join in the project........

Edited by fuoriserie on Sunday 13th May 18:13

Edited by fuoriserie on Monday 14th May 16:06

[fuoriserie]

cymtriks said:

[

off the wall idea-

look up some of cars on deco rides . The Maserati boat tail and the Zephyr fastback are amazing but no one makes anything like this in the UK. Why not?

Love those boattail rods, they look great, but do seem pretty expensive to me.

[cymtriks]

Sam_68 said:

cymtriks said:

Practical car-

How about basing a new car on the Elan Plus 2?

To be SVA compliant the pop up lights would have to go so I would propose a Caterham 21 style bonnet (correct "DNA" and looks great)and, to match the new round front lights, twin round rear lights. I'd also round off the rear wheel arch (looks more modern) and recess the wiper blades (SVA safety).

All the original stuff would fit so as long as original Elan parts can be sourced there will be windscreens, doors, carpets, etc.

Spyder already make a Ford Zetec Elan plus 2 chassis so even that is already available.

Surely the market for this is already sewn up by the Spyder Zetec Plus 2? It works out much cheaper... the original bodyshell, is effectively free, because if you buy a doggy Plus 2 you can sell all the original running gear before fitting the Spyder conversion parts, plus, of course, there is the potential to retain the original donor identity, so free road tax, no SVA and easy emissions testing.

Out of interest, have you seen the new(ish) Elite based car that Spyder is now marketing? Not to my personal taste (I think they've ruined one of the most beautiful shapes ever with modifications that are all subtly wrong), but it does pretty much what you are suggesting, only based on the '50's Elite rather than the Plus 2.

Can't find the "new" Elite on Spyder's website.

Regarding my Elan plus 2 idea the addition of a new bonnet and subtle changes to the rear would make it look different enough to be seen as the next step on as opposed to a straight forward chassis swap and restoration.

That's the concept anyway. I fully accept that a lot of people won't see it that way.

The key to my Elan plus 2 and the MGA idea is to use as much of an existing design as possible but change some key elements to give the new design it's own identity, ensure SVA acceptability and possibly move the idea forwards a little.

Another possibility with the Elan idea would be to add small rear side windows in those rear butresses. Again this moves the design away from the original, avoids the "restoration" tag and aids practicality.

I've seen an early concept sketch for the plus 2 and it's not far off what I've just described! The original sketch shows rear side windows and pop ups like the original Elan which could be swaped for glass covers over fixed lights.

With all the mods I've described I think a car could be made that cashed in on the availability of Lotus stuff while making a distinctive product that stood on its own merits.

The aim in all this is to get a body design more cheaply than currently possible and to use more stuff that's already available. Some of the costs bandied around for bodywork moulds and bespoke glass are horrific.

[fuoriserie]

A lotus Elite and elan inspired Mx5 bolt on rebody conversions......pretty interesting, not exact replicas but......

Edited by fuoriserie on Monday 14th May 11:29

[fuoriserie]

cymtriks said:

With all the mods I've described I think a car could be made that cashed in on the availability of Lotus stuff while making a distinctive product that stood on its own merits.

The aim in all this is to get a body design more cheaply than currently possible and to use more stuff that's already available. Some of the costs bandied around for bodywork moulds and bespoke glass are horrific.

This would make a nice replica kitcar, but would tap into an exhisting niche market, you wouldn't expand the customer base, but hold on to the converted kitcar enthusiast.

It's a good idea, but even if at a lower price range, it would compete with GT40, lola's and P4 replicas, Porsches.......

[fuoriserie]

Ariel Atom Locost replica, and i think it looks really nice........

www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=60981&page=5

check the video

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOIBle6OTlY

[cymtriks]

fuoriserie said:

cymtriks said:

With all the mods I've described I think a car could be made that cashed in on the availability of Lotus stuff while making a distinctive product that stood on its own merits.

The aim in all this is to get a body design more cheaply than currently possible and to use more stuff that's already available. Some of the costs bandied around for bodywork moulds and bespoke glass are horrific.

This would make a nice replica kitcar, but would tap into an exhisting niche market, you wouldn't expand the customer base, but hold on to the converted kitcar enthusiast.

It's a good idea, but even if at a lower price range, it would compete with GT40, lola's and P4 replicas, Porsches.......

I still don't think you understand.

My idea is not a replica, it is an attempt to use as much of an existing car, built in the way that kits are built, and parts as possible but changing enough to avoid being a replica.

With a revised bonnet, rear side windows and round tail lamps an other wise standard plus 2 would look different but still be able to use all the trim and glass from the Lotus cars.

I can't see why such a car would need to be positioned so high up in the market as you imply.