Aeon Epona

[Jerkins]

If I was in Aeon's position I'd want to see at least a number of people showing keen interest, maybe with a significant deposit, before starting production.

It's worth remembering that although they are a respectable kit car company who make worthy cars at the high end of the market, it's not their main business - most of their time is spent making and modifying agricultural machinery and similar stuff. They really need to be sure that they'll make a sensible profit before investing time and money.

And with the current financial pressures, they will need to be VERY sure of likely profits.

[andygtt]

Previously there was a huge amount of critism on here for a company that marketed their car prior to a prototype being completed... Aeon need to bite the bullet and decide either to produce it or not, and if not then let the original designer find another company that is prepared to!

This is an awsome looking car with loads of potential

[seansverige]

Furyblade_Lee said:

I wonder of next week we will find it has "Caterham" written on the back of it??

andygtt said:

Aeon need to bite the bullet and decide either to produce it or not, and if not then let the original designer find another company that is prepared to!

Isn't it based on a modified seven type chassis? Assuming bodywork is unstressed, if I Caterham or Westfield I'd be taking a keen interest with a view to not only kits but ECSSTA version.

[singlecoil]

andygtt said:

Previously there was a huge amount of critism on here for a company that marketed their car prior to a prototype being completed... Aeon need to bite the bullet and decide either to produce it or not, and if not then let the original designer find another company that is prepared to!

This is an awsome looking car with loads of potential

I think they've been very sensible not to produce it, personally. Nice shape and overall design, certainly, but I think the chance of a kit car company being able to produce the tooling , then the car, and make profitable sales are almost less than zero.

I think it's another of those 'nice in theory' ideas. There's lots of people who've looked at the model, and the drawings, and said "when can we buy one?", but when the time comes, and they have to stick their hands in their pockets, different story.

[Furyblade_Lee]

Why do you think it will be difficult / expensive to produce?? I'd have thought it's about as easy as it gets, unstressed fibreglasss and I assume they have adapted a currently available windscreen etc. to minimse costs.On a 7 chassis with outriggers I think it would be pretty straightforward, as long as access through the doors has been overcome and is possible.

[singlecoil]

Furyblade_Lee said:

Why do you think it will be difficult / expensive to produce?? I'd have thought it's about as easy as it gets, unstressed fibreglasss and I assume they have adapted a currently available windscreen etc. to minimse costs.On a 7 chassis with outriggers I think it would be pretty straightforward, as long as access through the doors has been overcome and is possible.

Well, first of all they have to construct a full size pattern from which moulds can be taken, then they need to make the moulds themselves. These two processes will be the most expensive, especially the pattern. The, of course, it has doors. Those doors will need double skins. What about the window glass, will they open? Assuming yes, then wind-up mechanisms will be needed, with suitable channels and seals. The list of difficult/expensive to develop and produce items just goes on and on.

It's a very nice, attractive design exercise, but quite honestly I would be amazed if it ever goes further than that.

[seansverige]

singlecoil said:

I would be amazed if it ever goes further than that.

Whilst I don't ultimately disagree with you, I don't think any of these problems are insurmountable. Does the body present any particular challenges? It's a striking shape, but looks eminently feasible.

Though it's only a model(s), it's an amazing detailed one - so much so that I think I recognise first gen MX-5 door handles (& you wonder why I'm single.... ), the windscreen in the side elevation rendering looks 'shopped (well, pasted) and I'd guess it wasn't a random choice (MGF?). A lot modern stuff has winder mechanism, switches, etc. mounted on a separate sub asssembly; I'm not saying integrating existing components is a walk in the park but surely orders of magnitude easier than developing & producing a mechanism? Applying that principle to maximum number of components would help minimise costs. It would be good to hear from anyone in the know what their approach has been (not sure I can face wading through the long threads on the off chance)

Be interested to know if there's a clever way to do the seals 'cos I can't see one, and hear from someone who knows whether framed or frameless windows are easier (I've always assumed the former). Do we know which is representative of the final design, the frameless T-bar of the blue car seems could be asking for trouble; can't determine frame on red model, looks like both T-bar and rear quarter light eliminated which can only reduce cost & complexity.

Edited by seansverige on Monday 20th December 16:39

ETA words I keep thinking but not typing....

Edited by seansverige on Monday 20th December 16:42

[singlecoil]

seansverige said:

singlecoil said:

I would be amazed if it ever goes further than that.

Whilst I don't ultimately disagree with you, I don't think any of these problems are insurmountable. Does the body present any particular challenges? It's a striking shape, but looks eminently feasible.

Well it's not going to be particularly easy, the main mould will need several parts in order to be releasable. But the really big issue is the pattern (buck). It takes hundreds of hours to make a full size body buck that is capable of having production moulds taken off it. If it's done by CNC, then it will be tens of hours of expensive machine time, plus the specialist foam material, and will still need hand finishing to be mould ready.

A very big investment for a kit that really doesn't look to me as if it's going to sell very many. I know lots of people like it, but it strikes me as the type of car that lots of people will like, but won't actually buy.

[Milky Bar Kid]

Whilst I think it would make a very attractive car, I do think Singecoil has a point. Who would actually buy the car? Kit car folk tend to want a nice simple/cheap car, which basically means a 7. TVR type people want a TVR, even if this could look like a mini T350/Sagaris. People who want a light weight sports car who aren't after a kit will just get an Elise. Don't get me wrong, if it were <£12K, I'd love one. But there's no way it'll be that cheap. And I think it would need to be to generate enough sales.

And then once you get down to the folk that would be willing to buy one, you'd need at least a double garage to build it in due to needing somewhere to put the shell/bits of bodywork when they're not on the car. This is something a lot of people forget, or don't have. However, with enough space and time, it would make a lovely car that could be an excellent long term addition to just about any garage. As long as they've managed to find room inside for a full cage. Last time I checked, it was a bit hit or miss as to whether one would fit.

And I'm still not convinced with the chassis. I see it as needing a full cage, rather than it being an option. What do you lot think?



If all that seems to be a bit of a downer on it, I think it's not the car that's wrong, but more the timing with the way things are at the moment. Given some time, and a 24V Alfa lump, it would make an awesome tourer that should hold it's own on the track too.

[andygtt]

Im actually at a bit of a loss as to why people think its such a huge issue... how many cars out there with full bodies of similar size? walk around the shows and there are hundreds, ferrari rebodies for MR2's, lambo bodies, cobras, murtoya, spire, lola, Ultima!!!!

some are a success (Ultima etc) some arn't,... but the key ones that are a success have a powerful original shape! the 7 type market is absoluetlly flooded, however a cheap body to go on the 7 type chasis isnt out there.

Of cause if they price the body too high then its dead, but an Ultima body is around 4.5k so lets say it ends up 3.5k... 7 type pannels are around £700... window winders etc should come form a production car and screen similar money to a 7 type.

So to me it looks like this 'body' will add around 2.5-3k more over a normal 7 type so easily built for sub 10k.

I see this as a huge gap in the market and thus oppertunity! what am i missing?

[Milky Bar Kid]

There is one thing missing from that list: the need for a full paint job. When I last spoke to them about it, Aeon wouldn't be offering a gel coat version. So that adds another, what, £1500 to do it properly? And a lot of full bodies cars are noticeably more expensive than 7 clones. Ok, an Ultima body might cost £4.5K, but given how much the whole thing costs, how much profit do they make on it?

Don't get me wrong, if they could actually offer them at <£10K, for a fairly full kit, I would finish building my K Sprite, sell it and then start an Epona build. I love the car, I'm just not sure the market is there.

[singlecoil]

andygtt said:

I see this as a huge gap in the market and thus oppertunity! what am i missing?

Well I think it is the cost to get from where they are now (with a simple model and some drawings) to set up and ready to go with a full set of body moulds. Maybe once they are at that stage then it might be feasible.

The other problem will be the cost to the builder. Apart from the extra he is going to have to pay for the bodywork, there will also be the windscreen (and its fitting), the other glass (including a heated rear screen), hinges, handles, locks, sound deadening (that cockpit is going to be a noisy place otherwise). Add it all up and it could still end up as quite a pricy kit.

[GTRene]

I saw some good points why not to make it, and some good points saying...why not

you don't have to re-invent all parts,only make the body fit around good reliable (not to heavy) parts that are cheap as chips because of the big use in several cars, so to speak.

I think it needs a roll-hoop/cage (not as a option)

oh, and make it leak free also the underside...

maybe they can work together with another company? one build/make a good rigid/sporty chassis/platform (also use-able for other sporty-cars) and the other make the carros? and offer them also turn-key ready? or how you name that

hm...guess its gonna be a bit more expensive then 12K
for a good sporty/fast produckt people are willing to pay a bit more...
look at a Ultima...that cost around 45K in parts to I believe?

[Frankthered]

I would suggest that a decent paint job would be nearer £2500 (mine was £1500 and is a little disappointing) and more additional cost over a seven would be decent interior trim - things you can get away without (or at least add later) on a seven.

So that would be carpets, a full dash & console, decent seats, door trims, door seals, a rooflining. Seriously, a car that looks this good would need to look good inside too.

[singlecoil]

GTRene said:

for a good sporty/fast produckt people are willing to pay a bit more...
look at a Ultima...that cost around 45K in parts to I believe?

But the Ultima out performs many top line Ferraris, Lamborghinis etc. The Epona probably isn't going to be in quite the same league...

[GTRene]

I guess not, but I meant a bit more but still less then the Ultima price.
maybe prices comparable with the Ginetta G40...almost same league?
they can also race G40 and Aeon Epona in the same class

[Russ Bost]

andygtt said:

Im actually at a bit of a loss as to why people think its such a huge issue... how many cars out there with full bodies of similar size? walk around the shows and there are hundreds, ferrari rebodies for MR2's, lambo bodies, cobras, murtoya, spire, lola, Ultima!!!!

some are a success (Ultima etc) some arn't,... but the key ones that are a success have a powerful original shape! the 7 type market is absoluetlly flooded, however a cheap body to go on the 7 type chasis isnt out there.

Of cause if they price the body too high then its dead, but an Ultima body is around 4.5k so lets say it ends up 3.5k... 7 type pannels are around £700... window winders etc should come form a production car and screen similar money to a 7 type.

So to me it looks like this 'body' will add around 2.5-3k more over a normal 7 type so easily built for sub 10k.

I see this as a huge gap in the market and thus oppertunity! what am i missing?

I think it is a fairly major issue, when the Ultima was first built it offered supercar performance & looks at a bargain basement (by comparison) price, if you started out now with an Ultima I don't think you'd be offering a body for anything like £4.5k (is it really that price from Ultima, that sounds far too cheap considering how much it costs to get a decent one on the road???) The Epona is not going to offer supercar looks or performance, in fact I fail to see that it would offer much that an Elise, TVR, BMW Z etc. wouldn't.

I cannot possibly see how it could be built & on the road for anything like sub £10k - most halfway decent 7's cost around £10k to get on the road & you're going to have to find that extra 2.5-3k for the body you mention, plus trim, paint, presumably a heater, more costly seats, carpet, seals, window winders, don't know if you were including glass within the figure of 2.5-3k or not, but even if you were there's at least another £5k there

I think it is a gap in the market for a very good reason, it's a very difficult gap to fill with a kitcar, particularly one that is a new design & therefore has all the startup costs associated with such a project, ok you've got rid of some costs by using a 7 chassis, but this is going to be a lot heavier than a 7 so if it's going to match 7 performance it's going to need some serious grunt which again won't come cheap.

I think it's a lovely looking car & it would be nice to see it happen, but in the current economic climate I think it would be a brave man that put his money behind this one.

There are several similar threads running on this sort of subject at the mo, & conclusion always seems to be that there is a gap for this type of car, but unless you're going to be producing several 100 a year I can't see how you're ever going to get the costs down to make the car sufficiently attractive.

Of the models you mention above, the rebody kits don't come into it as they are not kitcars at all & require little stripping & rebuilding. The Lambo reps, Murtaya & Ultima are in a different ballpark cost wise, Cobras don't generally come with roofs & the Spire & Lola are a fairly simplistic body again with no roof windows etc so you're comparing oranges with apples!

I think until we see a substantial improvement in the market as a whole the only thing you're likely to sell much of are established designs, or basic simple relatively cheap kits - unfortunatly mainly of 7esque architecture!

[tribbles]

I don't see the Epona being any more expensive than an Aeon GT3 - which would probably put it at the 12K-15K range.

[Russ Bost]

Yes, but you don't see too many GT3's do you & of course that raises another point, why would you want to spend money setting up a new car to take sales off your existing one (one which does have the engine at the right end I might add!)

[singlecoil]

tribbles said:

I don't see the Epona being any more expensive than an Aeon GT3 - which would probably put it at the 12K-15K range.

I can think of at least one owner who reckons his Aeon cost £26K.