What Kit Car?

[Darren156]

Hey everyone,

I've got about £4000 to spend on a 'Weekend Toy' / 'Second Car' and was wondering what the best Kit Car would be to go for?

I'm hopefully viewing an old 1971 Volvo P1800 E this weekend but if I don't get that I'm hoping to get a Tiger or something similar.

As it will be insured all year round along with my Mondeo I'm after something quite quick that I can use on the weekends and during the summer. (A fair-weather driver I know! lol)

I'm 23 and have 4 years NCD that I'll be using on whatever Kit Car I go for.

I see alot of Kit Cars come with a 2.0 Ford Pinto engine or a 1.8 Zetec engine, as well of course with a variant of other engines, what's the difference between these 2 Ford engines?

I'm a complete and utter novice to the world of Kit Cars so will try and pick up a few magazines from WH Smiths tomorrow and have a read.

I just want to get something completely different to what I've had so far.

I've had 4 Alfa Romeo's and although they're brilliant motors I'm craving something just that little bit more mad.

All help and advice will be really appreciated.

Thanks!

Darren

[Darren156]

Here's one that's really taken my fancy: http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/643194.htm

But once again being a novice comes into it and I have no clue as to what I'm actually looking at, lol

I assume it comes with a 1.7 Litre engine? And if so how would that perform? And I'm also assuming that most Kit Cars are Rear Wheel Drive? Or am I completely wrong? lol

[Corpulent Tosser]

Darren156 said:

Here's one that's really taken my fancy: http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/643194.htm

But once again being a novice comes into it and I have no clue as to what I'm actually looking at, lol

I assume it comes with a 1.7 Litre engine? And if so how would that perform? And I'm also assuming that most Kit Cars are Rear Wheel Drive? Or am I completely wrong? lol

That will be rear wheel drive and the performance will be brisk, the crossflow is an old engine but a good one, lighter and revs better than the later Pinto.

Looks good value.

[Snapper7]

The Volvo P1800 is a very vice car, but won't be any where near as quick as your Mondeo. You may not realise it but modern car have come a long way and you might find that the Volvo is not as fast as it looks in comparison.

The xflow engine is a great iron block engine that is normally 1600cc on webber carbs giving around 90-105bhp. Lots of Caterham 7's has the engine taken out to 1700cc and tuned up to 155bhp with throttle bodies. On a Caterham it is a great sounding engine. Make sure you get one that has been converted to run on unleaded fuel, which most should do by now. The Xflow came out of cars like the MK 2 Ford Escort.

The 2lt Ford Pinto can out of cars like the 2lt Ford Cortina. The Pinto is a newer engine than the xflow and also has more torque. If I am correct the Pinto is twin cam where as the xflow is single cam. The Pinto is also tuneable.

The replacement is the Zetec whick is a lighter engine block and comes in 1800cc and 2lt and can vary in tone from 105bhp to 230bhp. In a light car like a Ginetta G4, 7 or a stylus 155bhp will still be a quick car, 190bhp will be blindingly quick.

The Kit cars tend to be light weight and that is what gives them power to weight. But I would say that kit cars are something that you will always need to be doing this or that to to keep them in good running order. But if you go for the Volvo P1800 you will also need to spend time and money keeping that in running order.

[thescamper]

Pinto is generally single overhead cam although there was a twin overhead cam variant.

[Sam_68]

Snapper7 said:

The xflow engine is a great iron block engine that is normally 1600cc on webber carbs giving around 90-105bhp. Lots of Caterham 7's has the engine taken out to 1700cc and tuned up to 155bhp with throttle bodies.

Very few Crossflow Caterhams run throttle bodies and certainly Caterham never fitted them as standard. The vast majority - even the ones that are tuned to 155bhp spec. - run twin Weber DCOE40's or 45's. The Crossflow is a great engine - much more suitable for 'Sevens' than the Pinto, because it's much lighter, but its road manners start to deteriorate when you tune it much above 135bhp. Also, people tend to exaggerate the power output... everybody who bolts a pair of Webers and a lumpy cam onto one will claim 145bhp, but the truth is often very different. The Crossflow in my Sylva is a genuine (dyno'd) 155bhp, but it's a bit marginal for road use... it couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding below 3,500rpm and doesn't really come onto cam until 4,500rpm. Tuned Crossflows are also very loud, so be careful if you are intending to do track days - they often exceed the noise limits on UK race circuits.

Snapper7 said:

The Pinto is a newer engine than the xflow and also has more torque. If I am correct the Pinto is twin cam where as the xflow is single cam. The Pinto is also tuneable.

As thescamper says, the Pinto is single overhead cam, whereas the Crossflow is single cam, but pushrod operated valves. The Pinto isn't that tuneable... it's available as a bigger engine in standard form (2 litres vs. 1600 for the Crossflow), which means it makes more torque and power as standard, but a full-race Crossflow will make as much, if not more, power than a full race Pinto.

A 155bhp Pinto will have better driveability than a 155bhp Crossflow, but its extra weight and less free-revving nature mean that it's widely regarded as being less desirable than the Crossflow for very light cars.

It's fair to say that the Zetec is a big leap forward from either the Crossflow or the Pinto, but personally I find that these modern 16-valve engines lack character, due to their very linear power delivery. There's no doubting their effectiveness, though...

[wiz 1]

Have to mention the Ford CVH fits in between the old crossflow and much newer zetec. Reasonable size and weight and tunable, plenty about and good for spares. Quite a few old westfields knocking about with them. Sylva used them as well before the Toyota 1.6.

[Furyblade_Lee]

My mate is imminently selling a yellow westfield fitted with a new PowerEngineering+ 1900 CVH. Just covered 2,500 miles with us to Monte Carlo via the Alps, so i can vouch it is reliable and quick. He wants £4k for it, a lot of car for the money. PM me if you want more details.

[Snapper7]

Sam is correct I did mean twin webbers, sorry they do look very much the same

Sam_68 said:

Snapper7 said:

The xflow engine is a great iron block engine that is normally 1600cc on webber carbs giving around 90-105bhp. Lots of Caterham 7's has the engine taken out to 1700cc and tuned up to 155bhp with throttle bodies.

Very few Crossflow Caterhams run throttle bodies and certainly Caterham never fitted them as standard. The vast majority - even the ones that are tuned to 155bhp spec. - run twin Weber DCOE40's or 45's. The Crossflow is a great engine - much more suitable for 'Sevens' than the Pinto, because it's much lighter, but its road manners start to deteriorate when you tune it much above 135bhp. Also, people tend to exaggerate the power output... everybody who bolts a pair of Webers and a lumpy cam onto one will claim 145bhp, but the truth is often very different. The Crossflow in my Sylva is a genuine (dyno'd) 155bhp, but it's a bit marginal for road use... it couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding below 3,500rpm and doesn't really come onto cam until 4,500rpm. Tuned Crossflows are also very loud, so be careful if you are intending to do track days - they often exceed the noise limits on UK race circuits.

Snapper7 said:

The Pinto is a newer engine than the xflow and also has more torque. If I am correct the Pinto is twin cam where as the xflow is single cam. The Pinto is also tuneable.

As thescamper says, the Pinto is single overhead cam, whereas the Crossflow is single cam, but pushrod operated valves. The Pinto isn't that tuneable... it's available as a bigger engine in standard form (2 litres vs. 1600 for the Crossflow), which means it makes more torque and power as standard, but a full-race Crossflow will make as much, if not more, power than a full race Pinto.

A 155bhp Pinto will have better driveability than a 155bhp Crossflow, but its extra weight and less free-revving nature mean that it's widely regarded as being less desirable than the Crossflow for very light cars.

It's fair to say that the Zetec is a big leap forward from either the Crossflow or the Pinto, but personally I find that these modern 16-valve engines lack character, due to their very linear power delivery. There's no doubting their effectiveness, though...

[Darren156]

Thanks for all of the advice and explanations guys, it's really appreciated.

A few that are nearby and that have taken my fancy are these:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Robin-Hood-2B-2-0ltr-Pinto_W...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ford-RS-Turbo-Powered-Luego-...

Which would be the 'best' as it were?

[rdodger]

I don't think there is any doubt the Luego would be the better car. They have a better reputation and that one looks very well built with a nice spec engine. I wouldn't want an old Robin Hood with a pinto engine.

[kylemrushall]

Darren156 said:

Thanks for all of the advice and explanations guys, it's really appreciated.

A few that are nearby and that have taken my fancy are these:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Robin-Hood-2B-2-0ltr-Pinto_W...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ford-RS-Turbo-Powered-Luego-...

Which would be the 'best' as it were?

buy the Yellow Westie being sold above i know the car and the owner it's a top little motor for 4k, it goes and stops great

[Darren156]

Furyblade_Lee said:

My mate is imminently selling a yellow westfield fitted with a new PowerEngineering+ 1900 CVH. Just covered 2,500 miles with us to Monte Carlo via the Alps, so i can vouch it is reliable and quick. He wants £4k for it, a lot of car for the money. PM me if you want more details.

Has he got any pictures or info for the car at all he could forward to me? My e-mail is [e-mail] Pictures would be great. Thanks.

[Goochie]

Darren.

I'm currently in a similar boat to you although I would prefer to build a fresh kit rather than buying a ready-finished project.

Please keep this thread informed of anything useful you find out along the way.

Thanks.

[mcBontempi]

theres nothing you stopping you getting a cheap small engined based leugo and whacking a bike engine in it, bike engines seem to have come down a bit in price since i bought mine(650 for a blackbird engine 2 years ago)
Anything over 1 litre will give you 140bhp+ and your car will weigh 100kg+ less.
3-4ish seconds to 60 for sub 4k, far cheaper than building the car yourself from scratch too, and cheaper than a car with the bike engine in place.

costs are

new prop 100
fuel pump regulator hoses 100
engine 500
exhaust 300-500
gear linkage+ engine mounts - a few quid + a welder + a bit of head scratching

my conversion from my 1.3 locost(self built) took maybe 50-70 hrs

[mcBontempi]

... also i sold all my crossflow + prop + exhaust for about 300 quid on ebay too.

[dhutch]

Very intrested in the thread.
- What are peoples thoughts on the CVH engine?
- Proberbly one of the ones i know least about, pintos/crossflows seam the more common choice?



Daniel

[mcBontempi]

from what i know or 'have heard'

crossflow gets expensive and untractable above about 110bhp.

pinto very stong bottom end(its what the cossie engine uses), top end doesnt give that much tuning potencial, although a friend of mine added a turbo and megasquirt ecu, which gave good results. Fords own 16valve head(later sierras) is almost untunable due to the valve angles.

cvh, boy racers favorate, 1.6 is the one to go for apparently as it gives the best tuning potencial.

the unmentioned zeetec is probably a better choice, out of a mondeo they come with 130bhp. there is a standard theory that the ecu cant be transplanted to a smaller car as they are mapped to a heavy car, but a few people are starting to to disprove that(id never quite agreed with the problem tbh), see Practical Performance Magazine.

feel free to correct me!

[Spleeble]

Be very careful when going down this path. I’m like you, I’m young and wanted some cheap power and decided to buy a kit car last year. I had heard that newer kit cars are more reliable and better built than older ones so I bought a Ginetta G27 last year with a 2.0L Pinto in it. It seemed fine for a 250 mile journey, all the gauges had good readings until 30 miles from my destination when the oil pressure dropped off and the temperature went into the red. Apparently the engine was very worn and rather than chuck a load of money at it getting the Pinto rebuilt I decided to put a Duratec in it. Since I bought it 14 months ago I have only driven it twice.

If I were you I would be careful when looking at a car with a 30 year old engine in it as you will never know the history of it, yes they have more character but they are money pits. I would find something with a Vauxhall Red Top, Zetec or a Duratec as these should be more reliable. I would also stay away from things that have been heavily tuned as they can have more problems, if the engine has been heavily tuned then make sure it has a receipt from a decent engine builder. If some guy has told you he knocked it up on his dining room table and doesn’t have any receipts or dyno prints to support his claim of 300bhp then you should tread carfully.

[dhutch]

Spleeble said:

Be very careful when going down this path. I’m like you, I’m young and wanted some cheap power and decided to buy a kit car last year. I had heard that newer kit cars are more reliable and better built than older ones so I bought a Ginetta G27 last year with a 2.0L Pinto in it. It seemed fine for a 250 mile journey, all the gauges had good readings until 30 miles from my destination when the oil pressure dropped off and the temperature went into the red. Apparently the engine was very worn and rather than chuck a load of money at it getting the Pinto rebuilt I decided to put a Duratec in it. Since I bought it 14 months ago I have only driven it twice.

Yeah, well i have to admit that that is exactly what i DONT want to happen really! And i guess one of the reasons im here not trying to get a feel of what engine im buying. And if nothing else, what happens should it go wrong.

As far as i can see it sound enough.
- The blokes just done a 3k alps trip in the thing, and says it had no problems. Certainly eather way up, made it round and still drives well.

However the CVH does seam a less popular choice, even if the pintos/crossflows arent coming down in price anymore, you seam to be able to get hold of one without to much issue, eather for parts, or a direct swap?
- Although at the same time, there certianly some 1600cc CVH's around, and is apprently not impossable to swap for a zeta/zetec (simular manifold requiments, gearbox, dimentions, shares one of its engine mounts etc).

I dont know.

Personally i can worry about anything all day. But ive been looking around for about two years, and have now decided that this is proberbly the most opertune time to buy. Prices are a bit lower, i have the money, i have no real commitments other than uni (no work, gf, family, whatever).

If the worse comes to the worse, the damage-limitaion options seam fairly viable. If it all goes mega tits up in the engine dept and a cant afford to fix it i may be forced to sell a project a dencet loss which is probebrly the worse outcome. But yeah, Hummm!

Cheers,

Daniel