Discussion
Just to let you know, there will be a build cost estimator on madabout in the next week or so. It's not going to be an exact science of course but will give you a good idea of what a kit will cost to build by completing just a few fields. (calculation is done on approx 270 items)
Keep a look out
John
www.madabout-kitcars.com
Keep a look out
John
www.madabout-kitcars.com
The way I've been gauging costs is by asking the people who built them rather than the manufacturers.
As an example, talking to the people on the GTM stand at Donnington, they were saying how a car could be on the road for £xxx. Then when you look into it further you find, as you say, that's if you use a 1.1 metro engine and donor this and remanufactured that... Talking to the people there with their own cars you find out that really you're looking at £yyy to build a V6 with leather...
Most of the kits seem to have owners/builders clubs that would be able to put you in touch with a builder of a similar spec car to the one you're interested in and you'd get a decent view of the costs as well as what difficulties they ran into.
As an example, talking to the people on the GTM stand at Donnington, they were saying how a car could be on the road for £xxx. Then when you look into it further you find, as you say, that's if you use a 1.1 metro engine and donor this and remanufactured that... Talking to the people there with their own cars you find out that really you're looking at £yyy to build a V6 with leather...
Most of the kits seem to have owners/builders clubs that would be able to put you in touch with a builder of a similar spec car to the one you're interested in and you'd get a decent view of the costs as well as what difficulties they ran into.
But surely by structured pricing we'd be able to compare kits on equal terms. If you take 2 kits costing say £4k each. The final build to get similar specs could be £6k for one and £10k for the other.
Why can't manufacturers be honest?
Can't we take the truth?
>> Edited by Ex-Biker on Wednesday 22 October 16:58
Why can't manufacturers be honest?
Can't we take the truth?
>> Edited by Ex-Biker on Wednesday 22 October 16:58
spartan_andy said:
Not wishing to swell johns head too much but his site does feature previous builders comments and costs so you can get an idea but only if someone has givenhim the info in the first place
Very true. There's no better information than from people that have been there, seen it done it.
SO ALL YOU KIT CAR BUILDERS OUT THERE GET ONTO MADABOUT NOW AND COMPLETE THOSE FEEDBACK FORMS. 
...that's better. John
www.madabout-kitcars.com
I think one of the biggest things that varies the cost of builds is knowing what you are actually going to need. I built a Sylva Striker as my first car and found it very reasonable, I used the donor car's engine, gearbox, wiring loom, steering, axles, propshaft, etc and then bought new parts where I had to. Searching around will save you a fortune, go to ETB Instruments and you'll save hundreds over other makes. Even things like wheels and tyres can change build costs a lot.
I think manufacturers do try to give you an indication, but agree they should make it clearer. I would suggest if someone says from £6K, then this is possible, but you'll spend a lot of time in scrap yards sourcing parts.
I have a build plan for another Striker, my Stylus is probably going to go (Anyone want one?) and I think I can build one for significantly less than RAW now quote as a typical build price, but then I've built one before, so no where I can save monies.
Sorry, bit of a ramble, but the message is, these guys are not making huge amnounts of money manufacturing kits. They are targeting people who are generally looking at self builds to save money, they need to give out the impression of 'cheapness' to get our money and orders. Hence the success of the Lo cost, but are they really that much cheaper than say a Tiger or a Sylva, I doubt it.
I think people need to spend a lot of time considering everything, price it all up and add in contingency monies, as someone mention fasteners can cost a lot of money.
Not sure if this ramble has got anywhere, but I feel for the manufacturers, they do a bloody good job, maybe us Kit Car builders shouldn't be so tight?
>> Edited by Mark B on Wednesday 22 October 18:01
>> Edited by Mark B on Wednesday 22 October 18:03
I think manufacturers do try to give you an indication, but agree they should make it clearer. I would suggest if someone says from £6K, then this is possible, but you'll spend a lot of time in scrap yards sourcing parts.
I have a build plan for another Striker, my Stylus is probably going to go (Anyone want one?) and I think I can build one for significantly less than RAW now quote as a typical build price, but then I've built one before, so no where I can save monies.
Sorry, bit of a ramble, but the message is, these guys are not making huge amnounts of money manufacturing kits. They are targeting people who are generally looking at self builds to save money, they need to give out the impression of 'cheapness' to get our money and orders. Hence the success of the Lo cost, but are they really that much cheaper than say a Tiger or a Sylva, I doubt it.
I think people need to spend a lot of time considering everything, price it all up and add in contingency monies, as someone mention fasteners can cost a lot of money.
Not sure if this ramble has got anywhere, but I feel for the manufacturers, they do a bloody good job, maybe us Kit Car builders shouldn't be so tight?
>> Edited by Mark B on Wednesday 22 October 18:01
>> Edited by Mark B on Wednesday 22 October 18:03
Lexsport,
I think manufacturers are in a no win situation regarding how much a car costs to build since it can vary by an enormous amount. With the Libra (I speak from experience), the car was originally designed around the 1.4MPi donor and indeed the original demonstrator had the Metro binnacle set into the dash. Cars are still being made like that so GTM's estimate is correct. The trouble is that very quickly people saw the potential for all the other K-series 4-pots and in one (running) case a V-tec. Then a maniac
decided to deliver the company a KV6 resulting in the ultimate (standard) capacity Libra.
The solution is, as you say, to ask owners ,the unfortunate fact of life is that the majority of customers build 1.8s, with the GTM instruments, aftermarket bucket seats, GTM wheels, Alcantara interiors etc, etc, etc
I think manufacturers are in a no win situation regarding how much a car costs to build since it can vary by an enormous amount. With the Libra (I speak from experience), the car was originally designed around the 1.4MPi donor and indeed the original demonstrator had the Metro binnacle set into the dash. Cars are still being made like that so GTM's estimate is correct. The trouble is that very quickly people saw the potential for all the other K-series 4-pots and in one (running) case a V-tec. Then a maniac
decided to deliver the company a KV6 resulting in the ultimate (standard) capacity Libra. The solution is, as you say, to ask owners ,the unfortunate fact of life is that the majority of customers build 1.8s, with the GTM instruments, aftermarket bucket seats, GTM wheels, Alcantara interiors etc, etc, etc
Personally , I always struggle to justify it when I start doing the sums. If WK can build a "Budget" car for 5K then doe's that mean that us with "only" 3K will have to make do with restoring secondhand Duttons (highly underated). If I had 3K for a open topped car I'd probably end up with a mx5 if I used my head and justified things....modern reliable soft top, with great handling and easy servicing or something you have to build from scratch out of a scrap ford sierra...thank goodness I don't always use my head though. I certainly agree though that there is a distinct lack of genuinely cheap kits...personally I want a really sexy looking ABS freestyle if that makes sense, everything the freestyle captures, the fun, budget side of kits, but with a different body to die for, - keep it exposed still, but a bit more aeriel atom and a bit less beach buggy. Oh and on the road for under £1500!
mattstead said:
Personally , I always struggle to justify it when I start doing the sums. If WK can build a "Budget" car for 5K then doe's that mean that us with "only" 3K will have to make do with restoring secondhand Duttons (highly underated).
In the case of WK?, that's an experienced builder.
Going back to MarkB's point. Once you've done it, you know where you can save a bit more.
I'm guessing, but I image their 'sub £5k' car would probably cost an unexperienced builder closer to £6k.
mattstead said:
Personally , I always struggle to justify it when I start doing the sums. If WK can build a "Budget" car for 5K then doe's that mean that us with "only" 3K will have to make do with restoring secondhand Duttons (highly underated). If I had 3K for a open topped car I'd probably end up with a mx5 if I used my head and justified things....modern reliable soft top, with great handling and easy servicing or something you have to build from scratch out of a scrap ford sierra...thank goodness I don't always use my head though. I certainly agree though that there is a distinct lack of genuinely cheap kits...personally I want a really sexy looking ABS freestyle if that makes sense, everything the freestyle captures, the fun, budget side of kits, but with a different body to die for, - keep it exposed still, but a bit more aeriel atom and a bit less beach buggy. Oh and on the road for under £1500!
Mattstead, sorry to burst your bubble, but I am absolutely positive you will NOT build any new kit for £3k. Bear in mind, an SVA, Mot and registration will set you back at least £3 -400 after your have frigged around with suspension geometry setting, headlight alignment and any retests that are almost certain.
Ex-biker, I have already mentioned this to others, I have a spreadsheet for a RAW Striker with Zetec, bike and Xflow powerplants, pricing, I think resonably a car can be built alone for £5.5k.
Fear not, no one is bursting my bubble. Having owned and built more kits than someone my age honestly should have, I'm only too aware how much these things cost. The cheapest kit I've built was a Tiger cat E1 , on the road for £4500, not a bad example, nothing special but great fun. The point that I was trying to make was that even saving £3000 is a lot of "spare" money... I apprieciate your point that you can't seriously build a new kit for under 5K, but that is EXACTLY my point. Why does it need to be so expensive? Where have all the "cheap" kits gone?
And also, you don't happen to be throwing the gauntlet down when you say you can't build a new kit for under 3K are you? I really don't need much provocation to spend cash I haven't got on cars I don't need.....That's how I've ended up so obsessed.
And also, you don't happen to be throwing the gauntlet down when you say you can't build a new kit for under 3K are you? I really don't need much provocation to spend cash I haven't got on cars I don't need.....That's how I've ended up so obsessed.
mattstead said:
Fear not, no one is bursting my bubble. Having owned and built more kits than someone my age honestly should have, I'm only too aware how much these things cost. The cheapest kit I've built was a Tiger cat E1 , on the road for £4500, not a bad example, nothing special but great fun. The point that I was trying to make was that even saving £3000 is a lot of "spare" money... I apprieciate your point that you can't seriously build a new kit for under 5K, but that is EXACTLY my point. Why does it need to be so expensive? Where have all the "cheap" kits gone?
And also, you don't happen to be throwing the gauntlet down when you say you can't build a new kit for under 3K are you? I really don't need much provocation to spend cash I haven't got on cars I don't need.....That's how I've ended up so obsessed.
You sound like a man after my own heart, consider the Gauntlet positively laid down!
Now that one's easy.
Robin Hood do (or used to) a 2B and also a sub'k'.
The theory is that you can build it for a grand +vat.
Make it a little harder. We want a reasonably decent kit for less than £4k. one you want to show off to your friends and other builders.
>> Edited by Ex-Biker on Thursday 23 October 12:18
Robin Hood do (or used to) a 2B and also a sub'k'.
The theory is that you can build it for a grand +vat.
Make it a little harder. We want a reasonably decent kit for less than £4k. one you want to show off to your friends and other builders.
>> Edited by Ex-Biker on Thursday 23 October 12:18
I fall into the 'had a budget and blew it' category.... mainly due to ignorance on my part.
(example, budgeted £200 for the fuel/ oil lines, and spent £1,500!)
For me the most important thing the kit provider can do is give you the names of a few builders/owners so that you can get it from the horses mouth. This can often be achieved through an owners club.
In my view what they should provide is an inventory of all the parts required to build the car.... and I do mean every one, right down to the washers, gromits, cable ties etc.
(example, budgeted £200 for the fuel/ oil lines, and spent £1,500!)
For me the most important thing the kit provider can do is give you the names of a few builders/owners so that you can get it from the horses mouth. This can often be achieved through an owners club.
In my view what they should provide is an inventory of all the parts required to build the car.... and I do mean every one, right down to the washers, gromits, cable ties etc.
Ex-Biker said:
andycanam
I think you make a 5th category:-
Budgets? They're for businessmen when they're at work, not for individuals or home life.
or
Budgets are for people that need money!
Absolutelly who needs budgets I mean its only accountants that do them...... and as for adding the cost up well.... er..... bugger I am an accountant.
Anyhow I only went £17k over my original budget
thats of cause plus the £3k contingency I added in at the start
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