Chimaera replacement (long post)
Discussion
Hi guys
I'm planning on selling my Chimaera later on in the year. I can't import a later TVR (which is what I would like to do having previously owned a Cerbera) as the NZ regulations effectively exclude new/ish TVRs from the market. Long term I've decided to build an Ultima (I have a Rover V8 I've invested in heavily that can be used for this project).
Anyway, what I wanted to ask is, has anyone either got a modern TVR (Chimaera, Griff', Cerbera etc) and a classic or gone from a 90's TVR back to a 60's or 70's model? If so, how do they compare? I have been a TVR nut since I was a lad and I don't want to turn my back on the marque for good, so I was thinking of purchasing a 3000M or Taimar. They seem incredible value for money when you can pick one up for 5-6000GBP with a new chassis/engine/interior etc.
I also have a nasty habit of not being able to leave my cars alone. It strikes me that the 3000M never really handled as well as the Vixen or 1600M and that must be down to the heavy Essex lump. So, what engine would you replace that with to produce more HP, reduce the weight but keep it all TVR? Yep, a nice little AJP8 from a Cerbera! Has anyone done this? It seems to me like the perfect combination. You can pick up a complete AJP8 with transmission ECU etc, ready to fit for about 4000GBP which is probably a damn site cheaper than a good tuned V6. Any thoughts?
>>> Edited by jamieheasman on Thursday 25th September 23:55
I'm planning on selling my Chimaera later on in the year. I can't import a later TVR (which is what I would like to do having previously owned a Cerbera) as the NZ regulations effectively exclude new/ish TVRs from the market. Long term I've decided to build an Ultima (I have a Rover V8 I've invested in heavily that can be used for this project).
Anyway, what I wanted to ask is, has anyone either got a modern TVR (Chimaera, Griff', Cerbera etc) and a classic or gone from a 90's TVR back to a 60's or 70's model? If so, how do they compare? I have been a TVR nut since I was a lad and I don't want to turn my back on the marque for good, so I was thinking of purchasing a 3000M or Taimar. They seem incredible value for money when you can pick one up for 5-6000GBP with a new chassis/engine/interior etc.
I also have a nasty habit of not being able to leave my cars alone. It strikes me that the 3000M never really handled as well as the Vixen or 1600M and that must be down to the heavy Essex lump. So, what engine would you replace that with to produce more HP, reduce the weight but keep it all TVR? Yep, a nice little AJP8 from a Cerbera! Has anyone done this? It seems to me like the perfect combination. You can pick up a complete AJP8 with transmission ECU etc, ready to fit for about 4000GBP which is probably a damn site cheaper than a good tuned V6. Any thoughts?
>>> Edited by jamieheasman on Thursday 25th September 23:55
Hi Jamie,
I'm also from NZ and am in the same situation as you as I have a Cerbera that I'd like to take back to NZ. I also have a 3000M.....
The new import laws are quite restrictive, but I've been in touch with the LTSA in the last week and they seem very helpful.
The problem is that any car that is considered 'high volume' in terms of production numbers (and less than 20 years old) must meet EU frontal impact regulations before it can be imported into NZ. If it is a 'low volume' car, then it can go through a certification process similar to the SVA test here in the UK.
Where the problem lies is the definition of a 'low volume' car manufacturer - in the EU I think its 2000 units or less a year but in NZ they deem it to be 200.
Thats why new TVRs can't be imported as they are from a 'high volume' producer according to the NZ guidelines.
They people I spoke to at the LTSA recognised this as a problem, but I don't know if that will change. Other people have tried to import a Tuscan and a Griffith and not suceeded.
The LTSA are working on an exemption for dedicated motorsport cars. The car would need a full roll cage and full harness seatbelts. It would need to compete in 2 events per year to retain this status. I may look at this route for my car, or do what you're doing and build something else fun!
Good to know I'm not alone in thinking about this stuff.
Re. your 3000M plan, what about the Lexus V8? About $1500 NZ from breakers and seem quite popular with car modifiers back home....
I'm also from NZ and am in the same situation as you as I have a Cerbera that I'd like to take back to NZ. I also have a 3000M.....
The new import laws are quite restrictive, but I've been in touch with the LTSA in the last week and they seem very helpful.
The problem is that any car that is considered 'high volume' in terms of production numbers (and less than 20 years old) must meet EU frontal impact regulations before it can be imported into NZ. If it is a 'low volume' car, then it can go through a certification process similar to the SVA test here in the UK.
Where the problem lies is the definition of a 'low volume' car manufacturer - in the EU I think its 2000 units or less a year but in NZ they deem it to be 200.
Thats why new TVRs can't be imported as they are from a 'high volume' producer according to the NZ guidelines.
They people I spoke to at the LTSA recognised this as a problem, but I don't know if that will change. Other people have tried to import a Tuscan and a Griffith and not suceeded.
The LTSA are working on an exemption for dedicated motorsport cars. The car would need a full roll cage and full harness seatbelts. It would need to compete in 2 events per year to retain this status. I may look at this route for my car, or do what you're doing and build something else fun!
Good to know I'm not alone in thinking about this stuff.
Re. your 3000M plan, what about the Lexus V8? About $1500 NZ from breakers and seem quite popular with car modifiers back home....
Hi,
What you haven't considered in the costs of an AJP8 vs tuning the V6 is the extra installation costs. Exhaust, intake, cooling, transmission, gearlever, steering, brakes, suspension etc immediately spring to mind as things that could potentially require changing. I admit that some of these would probably be affected when tuning the V6, but the jobs are an order of magnitude smaller.
People have fitted the Rover V8 into the M Series (I believe there were even a few dealer fit cars back in the seventies). Have you considered that possibility?
Having got a track prepped Vixen and a Griff 500, I can say that the Vixen is a quicker track car, but the Griff is a much nicer road car owing to the Vixen's stripped out interior and stiff suspension. Both are a real hoot to drive but for different reasons.
You're always going to be fighting the weight of the Essex engine up front in an M/Taimar, plus the extra weight of the bodyshell over a Vixen. A well tuned Vixen can produce a nice driveable car with better handling, especially if you want to moderninse it with fuel injection (140bhp capable in moderate tune level) and a 5-speed box. That'd be a really nice "old car" with more modern running gear.
Hope this helps,
YellowShed
What you haven't considered in the costs of an AJP8 vs tuning the V6 is the extra installation costs. Exhaust, intake, cooling, transmission, gearlever, steering, brakes, suspension etc immediately spring to mind as things that could potentially require changing. I admit that some of these would probably be affected when tuning the V6, but the jobs are an order of magnitude smaller.
People have fitted the Rover V8 into the M Series (I believe there were even a few dealer fit cars back in the seventies). Have you considered that possibility?
Having got a track prepped Vixen and a Griff 500, I can say that the Vixen is a quicker track car, but the Griff is a much nicer road car owing to the Vixen's stripped out interior and stiff suspension. Both are a real hoot to drive but for different reasons.
You're always going to be fighting the weight of the Essex engine up front in an M/Taimar, plus the extra weight of the bodyshell over a Vixen. A well tuned Vixen can produce a nice driveable car with better handling, especially if you want to moderninse it with fuel injection (140bhp capable in moderate tune level) and a 5-speed box. That'd be a really nice "old car" with more modern running gear.
Hope this helps,
YellowShed
I've seen various conversions to M-series cars over the years and as long as you remember Trevor Wilkinson's original strategy of supplying a rolling chassis/body for the customer to fit his(her?) own drivetrain, you'll be ok.
The Americans fit V8 Ford engines to their Vixens and Ms, mainly to replace the 2500TC Triumph lumps. Germans favour the 2-litre Cosworth turbo and us Brits seem to go for the Rover V8. I've also come across a Vauxhall 2litre M, A 3.3 BMW Vixen, a Cosworth 24V V6 M and a Nissan Turbo Vixen (shame on you Dave!)
Basically, fit whatever you can get to work but as Trevor says, allow a lot extra to overcome the problems that will arise during the conversion.
The Americans fit V8 Ford engines to their Vixens and Ms, mainly to replace the 2500TC Triumph lumps. Germans favour the 2-litre Cosworth turbo and us Brits seem to go for the Rover V8. I've also come across a Vauxhall 2litre M, A 3.3 BMW Vixen, a Cosworth 24V V6 M and a Nissan Turbo Vixen (shame on you Dave!)
Basically, fit whatever you can get to work but as Trevor says, allow a lot extra to overcome the problems that will arise during the conversion.
I'd only modify the 'M' after owning it for a while as I've got other projects planned or on the go. I just thought it would make a nice package as I love the AJP8 (I used to own a Cerbera before moving to NZ) and it wouldn't seem as wrong as putting in a Rover V8 or other manufacturer's engine. There's nothing wrong with the existing V6 but they are very heavy and getting any serious horsepower out of them is an expensive process.
Of course if I was going to attempt something like this I'd budget and plan for suspension and brake upgrades. I'm fortunate to know people who are very experienced in this sort of thing so there's plenty of help to be had with the fitting etc.
I've been offered AJP8 engines in the past. One was 4000GBP and included all ancilleries, ECU, gearbox, clutch etc etc so it represents very good value for money. The rest of the car would be upgraded accordingly as I wouldn't want to do a half-arsed job.
Importing newer TVRs into NZ - Yep I've done all the research too and basically the LTSA cocked-up on the 200 cars thing. Originally it was supposed to be 200 models of any car, not total production volume! I think they will change it eventually as it really doesn't make any difference to their overall strategy of reducing the number of dodgy wrecks on the road. Having said this I do know of one guy who managed to sneak his '99 Chimaera into the country - he pestered the LTSA staff to the point that they registered it just to get rid of him!
I don't think it will be long before TVR are forced to crash-test their cars anyway.
Of course if I was going to attempt something like this I'd budget and plan for suspension and brake upgrades. I'm fortunate to know people who are very experienced in this sort of thing so there's plenty of help to be had with the fitting etc.
I've been offered AJP8 engines in the past. One was 4000GBP and included all ancilleries, ECU, gearbox, clutch etc etc so it represents very good value for money. The rest of the car would be upgraded accordingly as I wouldn't want to do a half-arsed job.
Importing newer TVRs into NZ - Yep I've done all the research too and basically the LTSA cocked-up on the 200 cars thing. Originally it was supposed to be 200 models of any car, not total production volume! I think they will change it eventually as it really doesn't make any difference to their overall strategy of reducing the number of dodgy wrecks on the road. Having said this I do know of one guy who managed to sneak his '99 Chimaera into the country - he pestered the LTSA staff to the point that they registered it just to get rid of him!
I don't think it will be long before TVR are forced to crash-test their cars anyway.
I'd only modify the 'M' after owning it for a while as I've got other projects planned or on the go. I just thought it would make a nice package as I love the AJP8 (I used to own a Cerbera before moving to NZ) and it wouldn't seem as wrong as putting in a Rover V8 or other manufacturer's engine. There's nothing wrong with the existing V6 but they are very heavy and getting any serious horsepower out of them is an expensive process.
Of course if I was going to attempt something like this I'd budget and plan for suspension and brake upgrades. I'm fortunate to know people who are very experienced in this sort of thing so there's plenty of help to be had with the fitting etc.
I've been offered AJP8 engines in the past. One was 4000GBP and included all ancilleries, ECU, gearbox, clutch etc etc so it represents very good value for money. The rest of the car would be upgraded accordingly as I wouldn't want to do a half-arsed job.
Importing newer TVRs into NZ - Yep I've done all the research too and basically the LTSA cocked-up on the 200 cars thing. Originally it was supposed to be 200 models of any car, not total production volume! I think they will change it eventually as it really doesn't make any difference to their overall strategy of reducing the number of dodgy wrecks on the road. Having said this I do know of one guy who managed to sneak his '99 Chimaera into the country - he pestered the LTSA staff to the point that they registered it just to get rid of him!
I don't think it will be long before TVR are forced to crash-test their cars anyway.
Of course if I was going to attempt something like this I'd budget and plan for suspension and brake upgrades. I'm fortunate to know people who are very experienced in this sort of thing so there's plenty of help to be had with the fitting etc.
I've been offered AJP8 engines in the past. One was 4000GBP and included all ancilleries, ECU, gearbox, clutch etc etc so it represents very good value for money. The rest of the car would be upgraded accordingly as I wouldn't want to do a half-arsed job.
Importing newer TVRs into NZ - Yep I've done all the research too and basically the LTSA cocked-up on the 200 cars thing. Originally it was supposed to be 200 models of any car, not total production volume! I think they will change it eventually as it really doesn't make any difference to their overall strategy of reducing the number of dodgy wrecks on the road. Having said this I do know of one guy who managed to sneak his '99 Chimaera into the country - he pestered the LTSA staff to the point that they registered it just to get rid of him!
I don't think it will be long before TVR are forced to crash-test their cars anyway.
Hi there, been on holiday for a bit so only just seen this thread. At one point a few years ago we owned at the same time:-
1967 Vixen S1
1977 Taimar - much modified
1996 Griffith 500
Now we drove all three on the road and the last two on circuit days, our thoughts were:-
1) The older they were the more 'fun' they were to drive. The Vixen was so nimble it was just like a big go-kart and although it couln't match the acceleration of the other two! it was just great in the twisties.
2) The Griffith felt more like a fast GT rather than an out and out sportscar
3) The Taimar was great fun on the track, probably because of the mods and the value, you were prepared to be more committed in it than in the Griff.
4) If you wanted to go away for the weekend you took the Griff, if it was a circuit day we'd take the Taimar and for a blast localy you'd take the Vixen.
They were all completely different, but the older cars seemed to have more 'character', and of course theres something very satisfying about overtakinga Griff/Chimaera on a track day with a lowly Taimar!
I also had a Prodrive Modified Impreza Turbo at the same time (we had 6 or 7 cars before children!) and if it was Raining we'd take the Scooby!!
In the end my Taimar was running Exactly TVR Leda Suspension with 15x7 205/55 front and 15x9! 225/50 rear, with a trick engine and very trick exhaust, it was a great track car but useless on the road mainly due to less than 3 inches ground clearance.
You pays your money and takes your choice.
BTW
Fastest Car point to point - The Scooby no question (as proved on several TVRCC trackdays!)
Most Fun to Drive - Vixen S1
Just my two pence
Davidy
1967 Vixen S1
1977 Taimar - much modified
1996 Griffith 500
Now we drove all three on the road and the last two on circuit days, our thoughts were:-
1) The older they were the more 'fun' they were to drive. The Vixen was so nimble it was just like a big go-kart and although it couln't match the acceleration of the other two! it was just great in the twisties.
2) The Griffith felt more like a fast GT rather than an out and out sportscar
3) The Taimar was great fun on the track, probably because of the mods and the value, you were prepared to be more committed in it than in the Griff.
4) If you wanted to go away for the weekend you took the Griff, if it was a circuit day we'd take the Taimar and for a blast localy you'd take the Vixen.
They were all completely different, but the older cars seemed to have more 'character', and of course theres something very satisfying about overtakinga Griff/Chimaera on a track day with a lowly Taimar!
I also had a Prodrive Modified Impreza Turbo at the same time (we had 6 or 7 cars before children!) and if it was Raining we'd take the Scooby!!
In the end my Taimar was running Exactly TVR Leda Suspension with 15x7 205/55 front and 15x9! 225/50 rear, with a trick engine and very trick exhaust, it was a great track car but useless on the road mainly due to less than 3 inches ground clearance.
You pays your money and takes your choice.
BTW
Fastest Car point to point - The Scooby no question (as proved on several TVRCC trackdays!)
Most Fun to Drive - Vixen S1
Just my two pence
Davidy
Thanks for that Davidy. That's the sort of information I was looking for. If I do get a Vixen/M/Taimar it will be used day-in day-out in much the same way as my BMW 2002Tii was until it was taken off the road pending a complete resto'. I've owned two Chimaeras, a 4.3 Griff' and a Cerbera. The Cerbera was/is the car I'd like to own again most of all but I can't (due to NZ restrictions) so I must look at alternatives. By owning an older TVR I'll still be loyal to the marque and hopefully enjoy it just as much. As I've said before they represent incredible value for money on the classic market at the moment. The idea of the AJP8 is a future plan as I really like the idea of creating a 'pure' 60s/70s TVR!
02Tii, brought a twinkle to my eyes and a lump to my throat reading that. Loved mine. Needed a complete resto too, moved house and it had to go. Passed the area it went to a few weeks ago and nearly broke my neck looking out for it. Wonder where it is. Funny how some cars get into your blood.
Jamie
If I was going for an older car to be used everyday, I would plump for the Taimar as it is slightly more practical than the others, having the opening tailgate and marginally better ventillation. M series cars are also easier to get in and out of than a Vixen.
If fuel costs are a consideration and you are preapred to sacrifice speed for handling, don't forget the 1600M, a little more pactical than a Vixen , cheap as chips to buy and run. Not a bad choice if you're going down the engine replacement route in the future.
M series cars can be made to handle well, but due to the weight of the Essex Engine, in relation to the weight of the car, they will understeer first, unless you keep your foot well in!! A Vixen has less vices and is very well balanced. A 1600M should be somewhere in the middle though it is heavier than the Vixen but lighter 300-400lb than a 3 litre. I did have a 1600M but I bought and sold it in lego format, an unfinished project, but I was going to build it as an everyday car with a 5 speed box.
If you want to know about making Vixens go, then mail Trevor Jasper (tjasper) or Ian Bannister (TVR79).
If you think these old cars won't be quick enough for you then why not consider the Turbo. A well maintained car will be very reliable, Ian Bannister used to do several thousand miles a year in his car. Amazingly quick in a straight line, interesting in corners especially when the boost comes in! I drove Ian's car on a circuit day and in a straight line we'd leave an Escort Cosworth for dead, corners were a different matter, loads of understeer (going in to fast), near the apex floor the throttle, tail comes round, straighten car up and off we go (loads of fun). Also the turbo is quite refined the turbo snaffling the exhaust note a bit. We used to call Ians Car the Magic Carpet as it was so quite at 135mph!!! If Turbos interest you talk either to Ian or Adrian Venn (Exactly TVR)
Best of luck in finding your chosen steed
Davidy
If I was going for an older car to be used everyday, I would plump for the Taimar as it is slightly more practical than the others, having the opening tailgate and marginally better ventillation. M series cars are also easier to get in and out of than a Vixen.
If fuel costs are a consideration and you are preapred to sacrifice speed for handling, don't forget the 1600M, a little more pactical than a Vixen , cheap as chips to buy and run. Not a bad choice if you're going down the engine replacement route in the future.
M series cars can be made to handle well, but due to the weight of the Essex Engine, in relation to the weight of the car, they will understeer first, unless you keep your foot well in!! A Vixen has less vices and is very well balanced. A 1600M should be somewhere in the middle though it is heavier than the Vixen but lighter 300-400lb than a 3 litre. I did have a 1600M but I bought and sold it in lego format, an unfinished project, but I was going to build it as an everyday car with a 5 speed box.
If you want to know about making Vixens go, then mail Trevor Jasper (tjasper) or Ian Bannister (TVR79).
If you think these old cars won't be quick enough for you then why not consider the Turbo. A well maintained car will be very reliable, Ian Bannister used to do several thousand miles a year in his car. Amazingly quick in a straight line, interesting in corners especially when the boost comes in! I drove Ian's car on a circuit day and in a straight line we'd leave an Escort Cosworth for dead, corners were a different matter, loads of understeer (going in to fast), near the apex floor the throttle, tail comes round, straighten car up and off we go (loads of fun). Also the turbo is quite refined the turbo snaffling the exhaust note a bit. We used to call Ians Car the Magic Carpet as it was so quite at 135mph!!! If Turbos interest you talk either to Ian or Adrian Venn (Exactly TVR)
Best of luck in finding your chosen steed
Davidy
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