Engineered rule bending
Discussion
IanUAE said:
slopes said:
Pretty sure it hasn't been covered in this thread but will have been covered somewhere on ph but Andy Petree was the crew chief for the Harry gant Skoal bandit NASCAR at the time and they created a deck lid spoiler that could be lowered, kind of like DRS in F1. There is a very good video with a whole panel of people from motorsport discussing racing in the grey area and this story was on it.
Also included was one of the crew for the infamous Whittington Brothers ex Kremer 935 which had nitrous installed in it, they used the radio switch to activate it.
Dale Jr's podcast also has an interview with Darrel Waltrip regarding rule bending in NASCAR.
This one?Also included was one of the crew for the infamous Whittington Brothers ex Kremer 935 which had nitrous installed in it, they used the radio switch to activate it.
Dale Jr's podcast also has an interview with Darrel Waltrip regarding rule bending in NASCAR.
Edited by slopes on Sunday 8th January 10:03
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfq7-1ePW-M
https://youtu.be/68NuniCVmhI
There’s some fascinating stories on that channel, like this one about the Ford Taurus which looked nothing like the road car.
https://youtu.be/p9_ikuruHcc
With an article on the same car from Hagerty https://www.hagerty.com/media/automotive-history/t...
Edited by Robmarriott on Monday 9th January 12:23
IanUAE said:
slopes said:
Pretty sure it hasn't been covered in this thread but will have been covered somewhere on ph but Andy Petree was the crew chief for the Harry gant Skoal bandit NASCAR at the time and they created a deck lid spoiler that could be lowered, kind of like DRS in F1. There is a very good video with a whole panel of people from motorsport discussing racing in the grey area and this story was on it.
Also included was one of the crew for the infamous Whittington Brothers ex Kremer 935 which had nitrous installed in it, they used the radio switch to activate it.
Dale Jr's podcast also has an interview with Darrel Waltrip regarding rule bending in NASCAR.
This one?Also included was one of the crew for the infamous Whittington Brothers ex Kremer 935 which had nitrous installed in it, they used the radio switch to activate it.
Dale Jr's podcast also has an interview with Darrel Waltrip regarding rule bending in NASCAR.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 8th January 10:03
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfq7-1ePW-M
William Toet spills the beans on the infamous Benetton B194 and the ingenious loophole for traction control:
https://youtu.be/t1PnMIwQicE?t=791
https://youtu.be/t1PnMIwQicE?t=791
entropy said:
William Toet spills the beans on the infamous Benetton B194 and the ingenious loophole for traction control:
https://youtu.be/t1PnMIwQicE?t=791
Clever guy, used to enjoy watching him when flying up Shelsley in a Pilbeam single seater https://youtu.be/t1PnMIwQicE?t=791
Smokey Yunick's tricks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeQ9ddonWuU
Racing podcast which is mainly US based. https://dinnerwithracers.com/
First episode (over 10 years ago!) with occasional NASCAR driver and sportscar racer Andy Lally, who got one upped in a little weight rule bending https://dinnerwithracers.com/episode-1-andy-lally/ 39 minutes in.
First episode (over 10 years ago!) with occasional NASCAR driver and sportscar racer Andy Lally, who got one upped in a little weight rule bending https://dinnerwithracers.com/episode-1-andy-lally/ 39 minutes in.
Some more
3-D printed aero parts are finding their way on to cars. They aren’t fitted at scrutineering, and they are taken off in Parc Ferme by the driver/mechanic and disappear in to a helmet bag. Seen this 4 times now in the last 12 months.
Screws not tightened up correctly on F3-type rear diffuser which meant they fell out during the race. This meant the diffuser dragged on the ground for at least half the race, according to the driver behind him. What gave the game away was the black rubbing strip fitted which wasn’t on the other cars.
Loads of cars still running illegal fuel. Some “older car” championships more prone to it than others. Sometimes you can even smell it when they are pouring it in, never mind when its burnt in the engine/exhaust. No-one is willing to put the protest money up. I've seen teams open a brand new 115 octane fuel container from one supplier and pour it into a normal fuel container.
Huge “rule interpretation” happening when there are tyre allocations. No-one seems keen on addressing this one.
People dressed as media, who aren’t, wandering around parc ferme with their digital cameras almost in permanent “burst mode” when taking pictures. Teams are now noticing this. They should only be in Parc Ferme with the chief’s permission, no matter who they are. If the guys from Autosport know they always have to ask permission, then everyone else can as well.
3-D printed aero parts are finding their way on to cars. They aren’t fitted at scrutineering, and they are taken off in Parc Ferme by the driver/mechanic and disappear in to a helmet bag. Seen this 4 times now in the last 12 months.
Screws not tightened up correctly on F3-type rear diffuser which meant they fell out during the race. This meant the diffuser dragged on the ground for at least half the race, according to the driver behind him. What gave the game away was the black rubbing strip fitted which wasn’t on the other cars.
Loads of cars still running illegal fuel. Some “older car” championships more prone to it than others. Sometimes you can even smell it when they are pouring it in, never mind when its burnt in the engine/exhaust. No-one is willing to put the protest money up. I've seen teams open a brand new 115 octane fuel container from one supplier and pour it into a normal fuel container.
Huge “rule interpretation” happening when there are tyre allocations. No-one seems keen on addressing this one.
People dressed as media, who aren’t, wandering around parc ferme with their digital cameras almost in permanent “burst mode” when taking pictures. Teams are now noticing this. They should only be in Parc Ferme with the chief’s permission, no matter who they are. If the guys from Autosport know they always have to ask permission, then everyone else can as well.
After reading this thread, it has brought memories back from my marshalling days which coincided with the Super Tourers. I always thought that the BTCC spec Vectras didn't look "right" when compared to it's Vectra V6 Championship cousin. I know the BTCC car had its areo and flared arches as it was the two tyre pit stop era. It just looked different and with a few posts in this thread confirmed my suspicions. The TWR S40 of the same era looked odd to me as well, the front screen angle and A pillars seemed to lean back a little compared to a road S40.
bergclimber34 said:
Read one earlier about Petty using wax in the chamber to beat volumetric cc measurements, it would burn off during the race and basically turn a 358 into a 370 cu in or something. Sounds a bit odd and false to me.
Presumably they never did post race checks ffs. Gotta love Americans
The early history of NASCAR was that it was a race of outlaws, the moonshiners who used to run their souped-up street cars across the country. Presumably they never did post race checks ffs. Gotta love Americans
Just because they formalised it as a series after prohibition ended, didn’t mean that it wasn’t still a race of outlaws!
Skodapondy said:
After reading this thread, it has brought memories back from my marshalling days which coincided with the Super Tourers. I always thought that the BTCC spec Vectras didn't look "right" when compared to it's Vectra V6 Championship cousin. I know the BTCC car had its areo and flared arches as it was the two tyre pit stop era. It just looked different and with a few posts in this thread confirmed my suspicions. The TWR S40 of the same era looked odd to me as well, the front screen angle and A pillars seemed to lean back a little compared to a road S40.
There's a video on YouTube about the championship winning Nissans, a guy bought two of them, the championship winning one is strange to say the least, it was built from shell parts, not a factory made stock shell, a lot parts from the 2nd Nissan which was built from a stock factory shell do no fit it,Also Nissan stopped making the 2 litre base engine used in the Primera's, did some mods to help it make it a better base to start with and started making them again in small numbers and fitting to regular Primera's so they could cheat the homologation rules with out telling anyone except their factory teams.
If you follow the Goodwood YT page, they had a big SuperTourer boost early this year, Plato, Soper, Reid etc, they all basically admitted there was dodgy stuff going on routinely, tyres, brakes, even in the early 90s.
The money involved was huge, as was the ingenuity, it was almost WSPC level in a national series, almost impossible to administer well.
The money involved was huge, as was the ingenuity, it was almost WSPC level in a national series, almost impossible to administer well.
cirian75 said:
There's a video on YouTube about the championship winning Nissans, a guy bought two of them, the championship winning one is strange to say the least, it was built from shell parts, not a factory made stock shell, a lot parts from the 2nd Nissan which was built from a stock factory shell do no fit it,
Also Nissan stopped making the 2 litre base engine used in the Primera's, did some mods to help it make it a better base to start with and started making them again in small numbers and fitting to regular Primera's so they could cheat the homologation rules with out telling anyone except their factory teams.
Heard about the doors not fitting between the cars before but the engine story sounds a bit embellished..Also Nissan stopped making the 2 litre base engine used in the Primera's, did some mods to help it make it a better base to start with and started making them again in small numbers and fitting to regular Primera's so they could cheat the homologation rules with out telling anyone except their factory teams.
The 89-94 version SR20DE engines were preferable for having better head design for airflow, it sounds like they were using old head castings rather than bang up to date ones. Not really as grey-play as other manufacturers concluding welding some original head material on to a new head constituted retaining the original
emicen said:
cirian75 said:
There's a video on YouTube about the championship winning Nissans, a guy bought two of them, the championship winning one is strange to say the least, it was built from shell parts, not a factory made stock shell, a lot parts from the 2nd Nissan which was built from a stock factory shell do no fit it,
Also Nissan stopped making the 2 litre base engine used in the Primera's, did some mods to help it make it a better base to start with and started making them again in small numbers and fitting to regular Primera's so they could cheat the homologation rules with out telling anyone except their factory teams.
Heard about the doors not fitting between the cars before but the engine story sounds a bit embellished..Also Nissan stopped making the 2 litre base engine used in the Primera's, did some mods to help it make it a better base to start with and started making them again in small numbers and fitting to regular Primera's so they could cheat the homologation rules with out telling anyone except their factory teams.
The 89-94 version SR20DE engines were preferable for having better head design for airflow, it sounds like they were using old head castings rather than bang up to date ones. Not really as grey-play as other manufacturers concluding welding some original head material on to a new head constituted retaining the original
There are rules for some regulations which say (for example when relating to cylinder heads) that it is permissible to "add metal" but not remove it.
Which leaves the door open to add metal in such a way that it allows smoother flow of intake or exhaust gases - the metal which has been added can be profiled to aid gas flow. Hence the infamous TWR Volvo heads.
In the case of air restrictors, from my own experience in Formula Vee, for example, these had to be fitted to the inlet manifold(s) between the carburettor and the manifold, so one could, if one wished, shape a piece of plastic to fit the underside of the carburettor and then "funnel" down to meet the restrictor. There was a benefit in leaving the other side of the restrictor alone, as the sudden widening post restrictor plate where it joined the manifold would create vortices in the flow of the intake gas (fuel droplets and air) and "mix" the intake gas quite effectively.
Any additional power benefit was largely in the minds of the mechanic and driver, though. But when you're starting from such a low baseline, any power increase is worth chasing.
It's all a matter of interpretation. The "letter" of the regulations vs the "spirit". So many regulations have had to be re-written or "clarified" over the years.
Which leaves the door open to add metal in such a way that it allows smoother flow of intake or exhaust gases - the metal which has been added can be profiled to aid gas flow. Hence the infamous TWR Volvo heads.
In the case of air restrictors, from my own experience in Formula Vee, for example, these had to be fitted to the inlet manifold(s) between the carburettor and the manifold, so one could, if one wished, shape a piece of plastic to fit the underside of the carburettor and then "funnel" down to meet the restrictor. There was a benefit in leaving the other side of the restrictor alone, as the sudden widening post restrictor plate where it joined the manifold would create vortices in the flow of the intake gas (fuel droplets and air) and "mix" the intake gas quite effectively.
Any additional power benefit was largely in the minds of the mechanic and driver, though. But when you're starting from such a low baseline, any power increase is worth chasing.
It's all a matter of interpretation. The "letter" of the regulations vs the "spirit". So many regulations have had to be re-written or "clarified" over the years.
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