Has Button broken Hamilton?
Discussion
DJRC said:
Are you insane?
You seriously want to put Mansell's "fighting spirit" and "best racer ever" attributes higher than say Lauda, Keke or Hunt? What about Ascari? Nuvolari? Rosemeyer? Christ, I think Rolt and Duncan Hamilton would have laughed their tits off at that, then drunk Mansell under the table, then hopped in whatever and gone and won Le Mans. Innes Ireland? Hawthorn? Thats before we even get onto Black Jack.
Actually forget the question aspect, we shall just leave it as a statement. You are insane.
Do not want to argue with you, but Mansell fought with Senna at the time, and was the only one who could match or beat him in raw speed. Senna was generally faster, but in some races Mansell reached the peaks which even perfectionist Senna could not match. Such agression and spirit will not be easily repeated.In a year with Prost he was simply unlucky.You seriously want to put Mansell's "fighting spirit" and "best racer ever" attributes higher than say Lauda, Keke or Hunt? What about Ascari? Nuvolari? Rosemeyer? Christ, I think Rolt and Duncan Hamilton would have laughed their tits off at that, then drunk Mansell under the table, then hopped in whatever and gone and won Le Mans. Innes Ireland? Hawthorn? Thats before we even get onto Black Jack.
Actually forget the question aspect, we shall just leave it as a statement. You are insane.
Nedz said:
Lewis is just having a bad year for what ever reason and this is made to look even worse by the fact that jenson is having a good year.He just needs to calm it down and not overdrive the car to try and extract performance which hasn't been there.Next year he will probably totally different.
Remember vettel last year,the crash kid?? What a difference a year makes!
Vettel last year, the crash kid who won the title. I only seem to remember him crashing into Marrrrrrkkk at turkey, and once in practice the rest were failures with the car. This year the Redbull has been ultra reliable and so has he.Remember vettel last year,the crash kid?? What a difference a year makes!
I've been trying to find an article in the DT...but it keeps coming up with an error. Basically, it's an interview with Martin Whitmarsh.
In the article, is what to me, is a very telling comment. It quotes Lewis as saying something along the lines of "I don't want everyone to keep holding my hand" ....Unfortunately , I cannot recall the full context of the quote. However, the quote is from before his fall off in form.
I see this as a sign of Lewis , to a certain extent rebelling. You see, not only has he entered F1 right in the sharp end, (not spent a season or two in a more lowly team) he has always been in a very controlled environment. That environment being his Father's control.
It seems that his temperament is that he wants to paddle his own canoe. He sacked his Father , which falls entirely in line with the hand holding quote.
He is trying to be too independent , swim in a sea where he needs to be part of a shoal, not a loan swimmer.
I honestly believe, that Lewis's salvation, lies in the one thing he wants to get away from, his Father, and in his own mind, acceptance that he cannot paddle hi canoe without the help of others.
Will he see it in time? Dunno.
In the article, is what to me, is a very telling comment. It quotes Lewis as saying something along the lines of "I don't want everyone to keep holding my hand" ....Unfortunately , I cannot recall the full context of the quote. However, the quote is from before his fall off in form.
I see this as a sign of Lewis , to a certain extent rebelling. You see, not only has he entered F1 right in the sharp end, (not spent a season or two in a more lowly team) he has always been in a very controlled environment. That environment being his Father's control.
It seems that his temperament is that he wants to paddle his own canoe. He sacked his Father , which falls entirely in line with the hand holding quote.
He is trying to be too independent , swim in a sea where he needs to be part of a shoal, not a loan swimmer.
I honestly believe, that Lewis's salvation, lies in the one thing he wants to get away from, his Father, and in his own mind, acceptance that he cannot paddle hi canoe without the help of others.
Will he see it in time? Dunno.
coetzeeh said:
Crafty_ said:
I posted this elsewhere in response to someone asking about Lewis taking a Sabbatical after reading this piece from Will Buxton http://willthef1journo.wordpress.com/2011/10/10/wh...
All this talk of "he needs people in the background to support him"
Bulls
t. Having Nicole whatshername going "you're great and I know you can do this" or his old man saying "go do it son"
How does that help ? To me that just adds to the pressure.
Did you hear Vettel's post race (and championship interview)?All this talk of "he needs people in the background to support him"
Bulls
t. Having Nicole whatshername going "you're great and I know you can do this" or his old man saying "go do it son"How does that help ? To me that just adds to the pressure.
The ONE person he singled out and thanked was Tommi Parmakoski, his trainer and coach. Tommi kept him focussed and grounded every step of the way to his title.
Lewis has who? Fuller in Vegas?
Bit of a co-incidence?
Yes trainers are important for the drivers condition both physically and mentally, my point was that everyone thinks that Lewis needs to be wrapped on cotton wall and be given "emotional support" from his father, girlfriend, manager, PR guy etc. I think he just needs to forget about them all and get back to driving rather than worrying what some hack is going to write about him next or how the PR guy thinks he needs to act and so on.
Or do you mean you think his trainer isn't up to the job ?
PeXy said:
Nedz said:
Lewis is just having a bad year for what ever reason and this is made to look even worse by the fact that jenson is having a good year.He just needs to calm it down and not overdrive the car to try and extract performance which hasn't been there.Next year he will probably totally different.
Remember vettel last year,the crash kid?? What a difference a year makes!
Vettel last year, the crash kid who won the title. I only seem to remember him crashing into Marrrrrrkkk at turkey, and once in practice the rest were failures with the car. This year the Redbull has been ultra reliable and so has he.Remember vettel last year,the crash kid?? What a difference a year makes!
http://www.crash.net/f1/news/163166/1/sebastian_ve...
Yes he did win the title last year......but only just.
rev-erend said:
Yep - Hamilton is now Buttons bh 
He just needs the t shirt.
Number - 2
Or No. 4 when Button and RB have finished with him!h He just needs the t shirt.
Number - 2
Lewis' talent is undeniable, but it seems he lacks real racecraft and patience when it's needed (remember he has already thrown away one WDC in '07). Add in the distractions, the Pirelli's and the lack of a decent non-related race mentor and Seb and Button are showing him up a little, IMHO. Some of the other drivers/teams have detected his 'sensitivity' & interpreted it as weakness. They are goading him into errors and then showing him up after the race eg Massa
Might he have done better if Ron was still the principle at MacLaren? He clearly needs a little guidance and in my view a bit more maturity.
PS I was impressed that MSC drove cleanly and well in Japan after his Perez related crash last time out, even if watching him lead a lap or so made me feel distinctly ill... If I was 40+, with kids, 7WDC's and stacks of cash, I would have thought that accident might have made him think 'what the hell am I doing here risking myself for repeated front of the mid-field finishes'
hotmelt said:
Do not want to argue with you, but Mansell fought with Senna at the time, and was the only one who could match or beat him in raw speed. Senna was generally faster, but in some races Mansell reached the peaks which even perfectionist Senna could not match. Such agression and spirit will not be easily repeated.In a year with Prost he was simply unlucky.
No way. There is no such thing as luck. Prost beat Mansell hands down in the same team because Prost was a league above as a race driver and so was Senna. Mansell was possibly the best-of-the-rest but he was emphatically not in the Prost-Senna league.
DJRC said:
Dont even bother heebee. Hotmelt is pretty much convinced Nige was the lovechild of Fangio and Clark with a side order of Von Trips thrown in.
I'm a big fan of Mansell myself, and always thought him one of the most exciting drivers to have graced the track (in complete contrast to his demeanour off track), but he was just not in the Senna-Prost league and neither was anyone else imo. 
coetzeeh said:
Did you hear Vettel's post race (and championship interview)?
The ONE person he singled out and thanked was Tommi Parmakoski, his trainer and coach. Tommi kept him focussed and grounded every step of the way to his title.
Lewis has who? Fuller in Vegas?
Bit of a co-incidence?
Not a co-incidence at all..The ONE person he singled out and thanked was Tommi Parmakoski, his trainer and coach. Tommi kept him focussed and grounded every step of the way to his title.
Lewis has who? Fuller in Vegas?
Bit of a co-incidence?
Although this may not be the key reason, its got to have an effect. He needs to wise up and bin Fuller, bin the personal endorsements, bin the hangers on...and focus on the thing he can excel at - driving a Formula 1 car.
He needs people telling him he 'could be the best', not 'you are the best'. Somehow I dont think Fuller is the person for that.
Get Ron and Lewis's Dad back.
CiderwithCerbie said:
Or No. 4 when Button and RB have finished with him!
Lewis' talent is undeniable, but it seems he lacks real racecraft and patience when it's needed (remember he has already thrown away one WDC in '07). Add in the distractions, the Pirelli's and the lack of a decent non-related race mentor and Seb and Button are showing him up a little, IMHO. Some of the other drivers/teams have detected his 'sensitivity' & interpreted it as weakness. They are goading him into errors and then showing him up after the race eg Massa
Might he have done better if Ron was still the principle at MacLaren? He clearly needs a little guidance and in my view a bit more maturity.
PS I was impressed that MSC drove cleanly and well in Japan after his Perez related crash last time out, even if watching him lead a lap or so made me feel distinctly ill... If I was 40+, with kids, 7WDC's and stacks of cash, I would have thought that accident might have made him think 'what the hell am I doing here risking myself for repeated front of the mid-field finishes'
Agreed.. Lewis' talent is undeniable, but it seems he lacks real racecraft and patience when it's needed (remember he has already thrown away one WDC in '07). Add in the distractions, the Pirelli's and the lack of a decent non-related race mentor and Seb and Button are showing him up a little, IMHO. Some of the other drivers/teams have detected his 'sensitivity' & interpreted it as weakness. They are goading him into errors and then showing him up after the race eg Massa
Might he have done better if Ron was still the principle at MacLaren? He clearly needs a little guidance and in my view a bit more maturity.
PS I was impressed that MSC drove cleanly and well in Japan after his Perez related crash last time out, even if watching him lead a lap or so made me feel distinctly ill... If I was 40+, with kids, 7WDC's and stacks of cash, I would have thought that accident might have made him think 'what the hell am I doing here risking myself for repeated front of the mid-field finishes'
So LH just needs his ego pampering
heebeegeetee said:
hotmelt said:
Do not want to argue with you, but Mansell fought with Senna at the time, and was the only one who could match or beat him in raw speed. Senna was generally faster, but in some races Mansell reached the peaks which even perfectionist Senna could not match. Such agression and spirit will not be easily repeated.In a year with Prost he was simply unlucky.
No way. There is no such thing as luck. Prost beat Mansell hands down in the same team because Prost was a league above as a race driver and so was Senna. Mansell was possibly the best-of-the-rest but he was emphatically not in the Prost-Senna league.
It's off topic but on the Mansell topic... I'd agree that he was no Senna/Prost/Schumacher.
But he was a ballsy committed racer, and the only one to have the courage to leave F1 and go and win a back to back series in a different sport, which I think indicates that he had a certain something...
But he was a ballsy committed racer, and the only one to have the courage to leave F1 and go and win a back to back series in a different sport, which I think indicates that he had a certain something...
Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff