Has Button broken Hamilton?

Has Button broken Hamilton?

Author
Discussion

Hunky Dory

988 posts

152 months

Wednesday 28th March 2012
quotequote all
mattikake said:
This has to be th worst case of you're-only-as-good-as-your-last-raceitis (or two) I've seen in... ooh a good couple of weeks
Really? Would you like to read what I actually posted instead of what you wanted to see?

Hunky Dory said:
I don't even see him as the best out there "by a long way" currently, either. And nor have I done for the last few seasons. Given his finishing position in the WDC for the last few years and his position relative to his team mate last year,again I must ask how you come to this conclusion as well?
I'll give you a hint, the important part is where I said "last few years". Look again, it's right there and nothing to do with "last raceitis" (please don't assume you are the only one to have followed His Holiness Hamilton since prior to F1. There are other Motorsport fans here as well, you know wink )

But anyway, that aside, you quote me as if to either contest or support my comments, yet I can't tell whether you agree or disagree with the views that he is either currently the "best by a long way", or the "best in the last 35 years"?

You go to great lengths to type a whole load of stuff, a portion of which I agree with, but mainly because you talk in past tense.  Perfect example:

mattikake said:
LH was building up to be a total Senna-esque sensation. In a much more competitive era than Senna raced in in the feeder series', he was trashing everyone from the moment he entered single seater racing. Clearly the fastest. Clearly the most aggressive. Clearly with a unique style. Clearly with a racecraft way beyond his years. And so many rated drivers and expected F1 stars of the future, were put in the shade along the way. 
The simple facts for me are that he was exceptional during F3/GP2 and did well in his first two seasons of F1. A WDC during that time was well deserved in my opinion. Had we been having this discussion in '09, I guess you and I would be agreeing with each other and proclaiming him as unmatched. But now we would be eating our words, as times have changed and Lewis hasn't changed with them to the same extent as others.

You like Lewis and his racing style. I get that and to an extent share the sentiment, but failing to finish higher than 4th for three years and being beaten by his team mate last year means (IMO) he has also failed to warrant being referred to as the "best by a long way". In fact, at the moment, I'm not sure any of the current line up justify that title, which is why this season is looking so exciting!

And please, don't troll out Brundle's " 7bn people and only 24 are good enough to be in F1" media-friendly catchphrase. I think everyone knows that's an infinitely flawed statement. We can't even agree on who's the best out of the 24, let's not start debating who's worthy out of 7bn!

AreOut

3,644 posts

108 months

Thursday 29th March 2012
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Scuffers said:
/aliG/ is that 'cause he's black?


no, the darker skin will not kill anyone but dangerous driving will, weaving from left to right in front of Petrov at speeds like 300 km/h is very dangerous if you ask me and there is a reason it is forbidden, Vettel&Webber (and nearby spectators) in Turkey were veeery lucky it all finished without consequences, I would punish Vettel for that a couple of races for sure nevermind Webber is his team-"mate"

Scuffers

20,887 posts

221 months

Thursday 29th March 2012
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AreOut said:
no, the darker skin will not kill anyone but dangerous driving will, weaving from left to right in front of Petrov at speeds like 300 km/h is very dangerous if you ask me and there is a reason it is forbidden, Vettel&Webber (and nearby spectators) in Turkey were veeery lucky it all finished without consequences, I would punish Vettel for that a couple of races for sure nevermind Webber is his team-"mate"
Sorry, that's total bullst.

The weaving as you put it was to break the aero toe, please explain in detail how this is dangerous? (its very much std practice in other classes of racing).

Are you trying to imply that he was blocking petrov? If yes then I suggest you look again, harder.

davepoth

29,395 posts

146 months

Thursday 29th March 2012
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
Sorry, that's total bullst.

The weaving as you put it was to break the aero toe, please explain in detail how this is dangerous? (its very much std practice in other classes of racing).
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/81DF225EB...

Probably best to let the FIA explain it, eh?

The FIA said:
20.3 More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off‐line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.

20.4 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

221 months

Thursday 29th March 2012
quotequote all
And how does that apply to a 30+m wide main straight, under acceleration, etc?

(and consider this is the same FIA that has come up with all kinds of bullst to justify ste like this before)

heebeegeetee

26,771 posts

195 months

Thursday 29th March 2012
quotequote all
AreOut said:
no, the darker skin will not kill anyone but dangerous driving will, weaving from left to right in front of Petrov at speeds like 300 km/h is very dangerous if you ask me and there is a reason it is forbidden, Vettel&Webber (and nearby spectators) in Turkey were veeery lucky it all finished without consequences, I would punish Vettel for that a couple of races for sure nevermind Webber is his team-"mate"
Why was it dangerous and why wasn't it forbidden at the time?

Use Psychology

11,327 posts

139 months

Thursday 29th March 2012
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
Sorry, that's total bullst.

The weaving as you put it was to break the aero toe, please explain in detail how this is dangerous? (its very much std practice in other classes of racing).

Are you trying to imply that he was blocking petrov? If yes then I suggest you look again, harder.
the weaving is allowed on the warm up lap and behind the safety car too. the key thing is the difference between weaving some side to side IN FRONT of somebody and weaving from side to side BESIDE somebody (i.e. in the braking zone like MSC).

Use Psychology

11,327 posts

139 months

Thursday 29th March 2012
quotequote all
davepoth said:
Scuffers said:
Sorry, that's total bullst.

The weaving as you put it was to break the aero toe, please explain in detail how this is dangerous? (its very much std practice in other classes of racing).
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/81DF225EB...

Probably best to let the FIA explain it, eh?

The FIA said:
20.3 More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off‐line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.

20.4 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.
the rules have been revised this year after MSC's antics at Monza last year.

flasher

9,224 posts

231 months

Thursday 29th March 2012
quotequote all
Gaz. said:
Have you forgotten Spa? A new rule dreamt up and applied retrospectively to hand Hamilton's win to Massa, and Fuji where locking a wheel earns a drive through while Massa colides with Bourdais yet it was Bourdais that was given a penalty. The stewarding of 2008 was such a farce that the FIA, FOM & FOTA overhalled the stewarding to what we have now and installed a former driver to advise/give perspective & insight to the race stewards.
Absolutley. Spa will rankle with me forever. One of the best races I have ever witnessed ruined by the worst stewarding in decades. Massa did nothing that day and was handed the most undeserving victory for years.

Since the new stewarding format has been introduced things are 100% better. But I'm certain it's also tied in with Max Moseley not being involved anymore too....

Asterix

24,438 posts

175 months

Thursday 29th March 2012
quotequote all
flasher said:
Gaz. said:
Have you forgotten Spa? A new rule dreamt up and applied retrospectively to hand Hamilton's win to Ferrari, and Fuji where locking a wheel earns a drive through while Ferrari colides with Bourdais yet it was Bourdais that was given a penalty. The stewarding of 2008 was such a farce that the FIA, FOM & FOTA overhalled the stewarding to what we have now and installed a former driver to advise/give perspective & insight to the race stewards.
Absolutley. Spa will rankle with me forever. One of the best races I have ever witnessed ruined by the worst stewarding in decades. Ferrari did nothing that day and was handed the most undeserving victory for years.

Since the new stewarding format has been introduced things are 100% better. But I'm certain it's also tied in with Max Moseley not being involved anymore too....
Fully agree and have amended you post accordingly.

AreOut

3,644 posts

108 months

Thursday 29th March 2012
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
Sorry, that's total bullst.

The weaving as you put it was to break the aero toe, please explain in detail how this is dangerous? (its very much std practice in other classes of racing).

Are you trying to imply that he was blocking petrov? If yes then I suggest you look again, harder.


I know what are you talking about. The problem is that Petrov (or any other driver) could(because of constant weaving) easily misjudge the distance between wall/grass and LH and the inevitable could happen. Remember the duel between msc and Rubens?! Only a big experience from Rubens helped both of them come through. Now if that was Petrov in his place..I'm not sure they would come out of that unharmed. Racing on the edge is OK, if you are doing it with respect to other drivers. Doing to other drivers(or people) what you wouldn't like to be done to yourself is not fair and is very disrespectful for them and for the whole sport spectators/fans included. That's why I will never respect LH and msc despite they are very very good drivers.

MGJohn

10,203 posts

130 months

Thursday 29th March 2012
quotequote all
AreOut said:
I know what are you talking about. The problem is that Petrov (or any other driver) could(because of constant weaving) easily misjudge the distance between wall/grass and LH and the inevitable could happen. Remember the duel between msc and Rubens?! Only a big experience from Rubens helped both of them come through. Now if that was Petrov in his place..I'm not sure they would come out of that unharmed. Racing on the edge is OK, if you are doing it with respect to other drivers. Doing to other drivers(or people) what you wouldn't like to be done to yourself is not fair and is very disrespectful for them and for the whole sport spectators/fans included.

That's why I will never respect LH and MSC despite they are very very good drivers.
You Sir are a very fair judge. To your short list of two, my list would also include a third... with initials AS.
.

davepoth

29,395 posts

146 months

Friday 30th March 2012
quotequote all
MGJohn said:
You Sir are a very fair judge. To your short list of two, my list would also include a third... with initials AS.
.
Aguri Suzuki? biggrin

AreOut

3,644 posts

108 months

Friday 30th March 2012
quotequote all
MGJohn said:
You Sir are a very fair judge. To your short list of two, my list would also include a third... with initials AS.
.


if you are referring to his crash with Prost, it was "just" his revenge for what Prost did to him before, if Prost was punished for that and Senna took that title, Senna wouldn't have to take the revenge...I would NEVER accuse msc or LH for doing such stuff if those drivers did that to them before...remember how msc was angry when DC has let off the throttle for a bit?! His face was so red of anger. Senna had his own mistakes(you should take into account that cars back then were MUCH harder to control without all electronic nannies and having one hand on the shifter for half of the time) but he never went deliberately into someone (except that "revenge") or parked the car in the Rascasse curve etc. He was not Elio Angelis of F1 but comparing to these two he was the fair player of the century.

heebeegeetee

26,771 posts

195 months

Friday 30th March 2012
quotequote all
AreOut said:
I know what are you talking about. The problem is that Petrov (or any other driver) could(because of constant weaving) easily misjudge the distance between wall/grass and LH and the inevitable could happen. Remember the duel between msc and Rubens?! Only a big experience from Rubens helped both of them come through. Now if that was Petrov in his place..I'm not sure they would come out of that unharmed. Racing on the edge is OK, if you are doing it with respect to other drivers. Doing to other drivers(or people) what you wouldn't like to be done to yourself is not fair and is very disrespectful for them and for the whole sport spectators/fans included. That's why I will never respect LH and msc despite they are very very good drivers.
You didn't explain why Hamilton's weaving was dangerous at the time, nor recognised that what he did wasn't illegal at the time.

Petrov was not and could not get alongside Hamilton without first picking up a draft from Hamilton's car. Petrov was not forced to follow Hamilton's every move. You seem to have failed to notice that Petrov was weaving too, and that he did that out of his own free will.

The Senna/Prost thing is/was ridiculous. AS brought a new, lower level of ethics into the sport. Right from karting and through the lower formulaes and into F1, Senna was renowned for his dirty driving.

Just once though, a driver gave him a bit back, ie Alain Prost. And so Senna decided he had to have justice and revenge against this driver who'd had the temerity to give him a slap back, and for some very strange reason many people have not forgiven Prost for being possibly the only driver who just the once played Senna at his own game.

These critics of Prost all choose to collectively ignore all the comments and reaction from Prost's fellow drivers who displayed great surprise at Prost doing this because he had always been such a clean driver on track. I think it was Rosberg who said that Prost couldn't do the dirty stuff well because he'd had no practice at it.

Use Psychology

11,327 posts

139 months

Friday 30th March 2012
quotequote all
AreOut said:
I know what are you talking about. The problem is that Petrov (or any other driver) could(because of constant weaving) easily misjudge the distance between wall/grass and LH and the inevitable could happen. Remember the duel between msc and Rubens?! Only a big experience from Rubens helped both of them come through. Now if that was Petrov in his place..I'm not sure they would come out of that unharmed. Racing on the edge is OK, if you are doing it with respect to other drivers. Doing to other drivers(or people) what you wouldn't like to be done to yourself is not fair and is very disrespectful for them and for the whole sport spectators/fans included. That's why I will never respect LH and msc despite they are very very good drivers.
you are completely ignoring the fact that petrov was several car lengths BEHIND LH and therefore there was no risk of them hitting each other...

Scuffers

20,887 posts

221 months

Friday 30th March 2012
quotequote all
Use Psychology said:
you are completely ignoring the fact that petrov was several car lengths BEHIND LH and therefore there was no risk of them hitting each other...
exactly.

The Pits

Original Poster:

4,289 posts

187 months

Friday 30th March 2012
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
You didn't explain why Hamilton's weaving was dangerous at the time, nor recognised that what he did wasn't illegal at the time.

Petrov was not and could not get alongside Hamilton without first picking up a draft from Hamilton's car. Petrov was not forced to follow Hamilton's every move. You seem to have failed to notice that Petrov was weaving too, and that he did that out of his own free will.

The Senna/Prost thing is/was ridiculous. AS brought a new, lower level of ethics into the sport. Right from karting and through the lower formulaes and into F1, Senna was renowned for his dirty driving.

Just once though, a driver gave him a bit back, ie Alain Prost. And so Senna decided he had to have justice and revenge against this driver who'd had the temerity to give him a slap back, and for some very strange reason many people have not forgiven Prost for being possibly the only driver who just the once played Senna at his own game.

These critics of Prost all choose to collectively ignore all the comments and reaction from Prost's fellow drivers who displayed great surprise at Prost doing this because he had always been such a clean driver on track. I think it was Rosberg who said that Prost couldn't do the dirty stuff well because he'd had no practice at it.
Eddie Irvine also dared to unlap himself by overtaking Senna. He got a slap for that too in the pits afterwards!

MGJohn

10,203 posts

130 months

Friday 30th March 2012
quotequote all
davepoth said:
MGJohn said:
You Sir are a very fair judge. To your short list of two, my list would also include a third... with initials AS.
.
Aguri Suzuki? biggrin
Yes, that's the fella .... NOT ... Racsal. wink
.

AreOut said:
if you are referring to his crash with Prost, it was "just" his revenge for what Prost did to him before, if Prost was punished for that and Senna took that title, Senna wouldn't have to take the revenge...I would NEVER accuse msc or LH for doing such stuff if those drivers did that to them before...remember how msc was angry when DC has let off the throttle for a bit?! His face was so red of anger. Senna had his own mistakes(you should take into account that cars back then were MUCH harder to control without all electronic nannies and having one hand on the shifter for half of the time) but he never went deliberately into someone (except that "revenge") or parked the car in the Rascasse curve etc. He was not Elio Angelis of F1 but comparing to these two he was the fair player of the century.
No, I did not have that specifically in mind. It was his attitude throughout most of his career which shaped my opinion of him. Before that final crash, I was concerned a few seconds before that his tyres were not ready for his 11/10ths focus mode which in my opinion, he deployed just once too often.

amokwa

425 posts

144 months

Friday 30th March 2012
quotequote all
flasher said:
Absolutley. Spa will rankle with me forever. One of the best races I have ever witnessed ruined by the worst stewarding in decades. Massa did nothing that day and was handed the most undeserving victory for years.
I totally agree, it was a travesty.