Has Button broken Hamilton?
Discussion
hotmelt said:
heebeegeetee said:
hotmelt said:
Do not want to argue with you, but Mansell fought with Senna at the time, and was the only one who could match or beat him in raw speed. Senna was generally faster, but in some races Mansell reached the peaks which even perfectionist Senna could not match. Such agression and spirit will not be easily repeated.In a year with Prost he was simply unlucky.
No way. There is no such thing as luck. Prost beat Mansell hands down in the same team because Prost was a league above as a race driver and so was Senna. Mansell was possibly the best-of-the-rest but he was emphatically not in the Prost-Senna league.
Lauda and Hunt would have made mincemeat out of Nige.
And Prost didnt need to match "his driving spirit", the man was quite possibly the most complete racing driver the world has seen.
heebeegeetee said:
I'm a big fan of Mansell myself, and always thought him one of the most exciting drivers to have graced the track (in complete contrast to his demeanour off track), but he was just not in the Senna-Prost league and neither was anyone else imo. 
I'm shocked that you've ditched him so casually - did you inform him by SMS?
hotmelt said:
heebeegeetee said:
hotmelt said:
Do not want to argue with you, but Mansell fought with Senna at the time, and was the only one who could match or beat him in raw speed. Senna was generally faster, but in some races Mansell reached the peaks which even perfectionist Senna could not match. Such agression and spirit will not be easily repeated.In a year with Prost he was simply unlucky.
No way. There is no such thing as luck. Prost beat Mansell hands down in the same team because Prost was a league above as a race driver and so was Senna. Mansell was possibly the best-of-the-rest but he was emphatically not in the Prost-Senna league.
(I'm a Mansell fan though - he's right up there with Piquet (you have to take into account Piquet's Imola shunt) and the other greats if not quite in the Senna/Prost superleague.)
To even enter the debate as to whether or not Mansell was in Prost and Senna's league is to acknowlege his greatness.
He raced the very best and beat them fair and square on a number of notable occasions. He also brought the best out of Senna and Prost and his various illustrious team mates, even when he wasn't winning. That's good enough for me.
Most of his detractors mention the way he spoke which is pathetic, stupid and brain-bogglingly irrelevant. He may not have had the glamour of the more exotic drivers, so alluring to many british motorsport officionados but he had the courage, commitment and determination to match anyone.
The tifosi don't give out accolades like 'Il Leoni' lightly.
His dominance in '92 had a lot to do with his bravery and physicality. The active suspension era placed entirely new demands on the drivers and no-one got more out of that technology than that brummie.
But seriously, this is the business of another topic for another day.
He raced the very best and beat them fair and square on a number of notable occasions. He also brought the best out of Senna and Prost and his various illustrious team mates, even when he wasn't winning. That's good enough for me.
Most of his detractors mention the way he spoke which is pathetic, stupid and brain-bogglingly irrelevant. He may not have had the glamour of the more exotic drivers, so alluring to many british motorsport officionados but he had the courage, commitment and determination to match anyone.
The tifosi don't give out accolades like 'Il Leoni' lightly.
His dominance in '92 had a lot to do with his bravery and physicality. The active suspension era placed entirely new demands on the drivers and no-one got more out of that technology than that brummie.
But seriously, this is the business of another topic for another day.
Hamilton broken?
Oh I doubt it. Japan wasn't a great race for him, everyone has bad days.
Heir Michael lead for a few laps, got a lot of column inches for it, but are people shouting about him being back at the top - on course for the WDC in 2012? Of course not.
One result doesn't make a season, and a so-so season doesn't make a career.
The McLaren driver line-up is the best in the paddock IMHO, they get on, which is rare for F1 drivers, they're not the bestest mates Mcl PR would like you to think, but they do seem to get on and complement each other very nicely.
Lots of people say his celeb hangers on and pop industry management haven't helped this year, personally I think the fast wearing rubber and artificial overtaking aids have hurt him more, but even I'm thinking going back to basics in regards to his 'team' would be a move in the right direction.
If McL can build a 2012 Car that's 99% as fast as the Redbull one, one of the McL drivers will win the WDC, I have no doubt about that.
Oh I doubt it. Japan wasn't a great race for him, everyone has bad days.
Heir Michael lead for a few laps, got a lot of column inches for it, but are people shouting about him being back at the top - on course for the WDC in 2012? Of course not.
One result doesn't make a season, and a so-so season doesn't make a career.
The McLaren driver line-up is the best in the paddock IMHO, they get on, which is rare for F1 drivers, they're not the bestest mates Mcl PR would like you to think, but they do seem to get on and complement each other very nicely.
Lots of people say his celeb hangers on and pop industry management haven't helped this year, personally I think the fast wearing rubber and artificial overtaking aids have hurt him more, but even I'm thinking going back to basics in regards to his 'team' would be a move in the right direction.
If McL can build a 2012 Car that's 99% as fast as the Redbull one, one of the McL drivers will win the WDC, I have no doubt about that.
Of course he hasn't. Two things have happened independently:
- Button has raised his game/ become comfortable getting maximum from the car
- Hamilton is pissed off at yet another year where the car isn't fast enough until it's too late and has little patience with fannying about mid table.
The difference is McLaren could deliver Button a donkey with its legs in concrete and, as long as he was paid to turn up, he'd be happy. Hamilton would rather be paid in buttons and win every race. If McLaren don't have a pace setting car from the start, expect Hamilton to leave at the end of the season.
- Button has raised his game/ become comfortable getting maximum from the car
- Hamilton is pissed off at yet another year where the car isn't fast enough until it's too late and has little patience with fannying about mid table.
The difference is McLaren could deliver Button a donkey with its legs in concrete and, as long as he was paid to turn up, he'd be happy. Hamilton would rather be paid in buttons and win every race. If McLaren don't have a pace setting car from the start, expect Hamilton to leave at the end of the season.
10 Pence Short said:
The difference is McLaren could deliver Button a donkey with its legs in concrete and, as long as he was paid to turn up, he'd be happy. Hamilton would rather be paid in buttons and win every race.
Wheres this coming from? Im genuinely interested as to what gives you this impression? They both seem pretty equally driven for success, Button just seems more comfortable in himself when its not going his way (Due to past experience and maturity imo). And dont kid yourself that either of them would drive a race winning car for nothing, they both know they have a decent worth to teams and both expect to be paid that.
Just wondering where you have drawn your conclusions from?
10 Pence Short said:
The difference is McLaren could deliver Button a donkey with its legs in concrete and, as long as he was paid to turn up, he'd be happy. Hamilton would rather be paid in buttons and win every race. If McLaren don't have a pace setting car from the start, expect Hamilton to leave at the end of the season.
You seem to have overlooked the '09 season, when Jenson was with Brawn. He took a pay cut, paid his own travel expenses and committed to the team - why? Because he believed in the car and the team based on pre-season testing and the development that had gone into it at the back end of the '08 season. He stayed for the opportunity to win races, not for the paycheck. Granted, perhaps there weren't many other options available to him at the time as Honda pulled out at the last minute, but I think your statement was a little unfair TBH. Forbes82 said:
10 Pence Short said:
The difference is McLaren could deliver Button a donkey with its legs in concrete and, as long as he was paid to turn up, he'd be happy. Hamilton would rather be paid in buttons and win every race.
Wheres this coming from? Im genuinely interested as to what gives you this impression? They both seem pretty equally driven for success, Button just seems more comfortable in himself when its not going his way (Due to past experience and maturity imo). And dont kid yourself that either of them would drive a race winning car for nothing, they both know they have a decent worth to teams and both expect to be paid that.
Just wondering where you have drawn your conclusions from?
Left a competitive Williams after one season
Took a well paid Bennetton seat which was a dire car, Car was better the next year (as a Renault) but he left at the end of the season for:
A well paid seat at BAR / Honda stayed with them for 5 years as the car got worse and worse and worse.
All the time earning a reputation for being the 'playboy' of the field.
Jenson's great, no doubt, but if Ross Brawn hadn't managed to build a team out the ashes of Honda AND had a 6 month headstart on the rest of the field in developing their Car, his F1 career could have been over at the end of 2008 and he'd be all but forgotten about by now as the good looking guy who won 1 race in 8 years.
Mac. said:
You seem to have overlooked the '09 season, when Jenson was with Brawn. He took a pay cut, paid his own travel expenses and committed to the team - why? Because he believed in the car and the team based on pre-season testing and the development that had gone into it at the back end of the '08 season. He stayed for the opportunity to win races, not for the paycheck. Granted, perhaps there weren't many other options available to him at the time as Honda pulled out at the last minute, but I think your statement was a little unfair TBH.
Ah, you mean the season with the car that was developed for an entire year with the full attention and budget of the (soon to be defunct) Honda team, that was designed to work a loophole in the rules that no other team successfully went with, then lucked into being able to ditch the woeful Honda engine and fit the most powerful and reliable engine on the grid? That season where the car advantage was so enormous that pretty much anyone on the grid could have walked the championship in it?And remind me, what happened at the end of the 09 season, after Button just managed to crawl across the winning line?
Ah yes, he jumped for someone else who would pay him enough money...
Button hasn't broken Hamilton. If you consider Hamilton to be broken (rather than just having a "slightly below expectations" period like most top sportspeople have from time to time) then it's self-inflicted. Undoubtedly he's not performing to his own expectations - he needs to work out why that is and how to fix it, but it all lies in his own hands regardless of the performance of his teammate.
Jenson better than Lewis? Not quite.
As above, Button lucked out by benefitting from a 6 month head start at BrawnGP catching the whole paddock unawares with their car. if Raikenen hadn't got greedy, he might have been driving alongside Hamilton leaving the Head & Shoulders Boy on the dole queue.
Lewis has had a bad 1-2 seasons, how many has Jenson had? I've ran out of fingers counting.
Having a few barren years happens. After showing Schumi how it should be done in his Renault by winning back-to-back titles, I honestly though Alonso would be a lock for at least another 3-4 WDCs. Things can change very quickly.
As above, Button lucked out by benefitting from a 6 month head start at BrawnGP catching the whole paddock unawares with their car. if Raikenen hadn't got greedy, he might have been driving alongside Hamilton leaving the Head & Shoulders Boy on the dole queue.
Lewis has had a bad 1-2 seasons, how many has Jenson had? I've ran out of fingers counting.
Having a few barren years happens. After showing Schumi how it should be done in his Renault by winning back-to-back titles, I honestly though Alonso would be a lock for at least another 3-4 WDCs. Things can change very quickly.
amare32 said:
Jenson better than Lewis? Not quite.
As above, Button lucked out by benefitting from a 6 month head start at BrawnGP catching the whole paddock unawares with their car. if Raikenen hadn't got greedy, he might have been driving alongside Hamilton leaving the Head & Shoulders Boy on the dole queue.
Lewis has had a bad 1-2 seasons, how many has Jenson had? I've ran out of fingers counting.
Having a few barren years happens. After showing Schumi how it should be done in his Renault by winning back-to-back titles, I honestly though Alonso would be a lock for at least another 3-4 WDCs. Things can change very quickly.
And how many seasons did Jenson have in a car as cmopetitive as the McLaren? As above, Button lucked out by benefitting from a 6 month head start at BrawnGP catching the whole paddock unawares with their car. if Raikenen hadn't got greedy, he might have been driving alongside Hamilton leaving the Head & Shoulders Boy on the dole queue.
Lewis has had a bad 1-2 seasons, how many has Jenson had? I've ran out of fingers counting.
Having a few barren years happens. After showing Schumi how it should be done in his Renault by winning back-to-back titles, I honestly though Alonso would be a lock for at least another 3-4 WDCs. Things can change very quickly.
hotmelt said:
Er...no
Well in their first three season they both came 2nd in season 1, then both won their second season and both came 5th in their 3rd season.....from that point Jacques went to BAR which was obviously a terrible decision and finished 21st however Lewis stayed with a top team and came 4th, the following season Jacques came 7th and Lewis is currently 5th, so its not far off the same sort of career. If Lewis doesn't sort it out in the next 2 he won't ever and will disappear in a similar manner and then maybe in ten years or so he'll try and get back into f1 by starting his own team.
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