Has Button broken Hamilton?
Discussion
mollytherocker said:
This is the first time that Lewis has been beaten (Ok not yet) by a team mate in F1. In fact, Im not sure hes ever beaten by a team mate in any formula has he?
MTR
Well, as you say, not yet. If it mattered that much, he would be doing better, if he could, surely? I'm not convinced being beaten, (although they have been very even all season in reality), is bothering him overly. MTR
Melvin Udall said:
mollytherocker said:
This is the first time that Lewis has been beaten (Ok not yet) by a team mate in F1. In fact, Im not sure hes ever beaten by a team mate in any formula has he?
MTR
Well, as you say, not yet. If it mattered that much, he would be doing better, if he could, surely? I'm not convinced being beaten, (although they have been very even all season in reality), is bothering him overly. MTR
MTR
mollytherocker said:
We disagree then, as I think that it is the main cause of his frustration and I think it is affecting him badly.
MTR
Well, Button hasn't been ahead long. They've swapped places a few times. The ball is in his court, so if it IS affecting him that much, (not convinced it is), it seems quite the flaw.MTR
Personally I think they are both great drivers and a credit to motorsport so not particularly biased towards either of them. It just looks as though this years rules have made formula 1 a tyre management formula, which playes right into Buttons key strengths, and is the opposite of Hamiltons all out attack style. You get the impression that tyre degredation was so high in Japan that they were never really running at maximum attack for fear of chewing the tyres up.
Golfers are great and then they get the yips and can't hold a putter and so do darts players and so it seems do F1 drivers. Just bad patches for various reasons so nothing to see here really.
LH and JB are both GREAT in my book and they are British which makes them even better
Motorsport has a lot of factors that are out of the drivers control to a large degree so the driver needs some luck at each outing. LH will be back and JB like a fine wine will get better and better.
LH and JB are both GREAT in my book and they are British which makes them even better
Motorsport has a lot of factors that are out of the drivers control to a large degree so the driver needs some luck at each outing. LH will be back and JB like a fine wine will get better and better. With regard to Molly's point, the tough thing for Lewis to get his head round will be that BJ has outraced him this year.
Macca handed Seb and RB the championship this year in the first 6 races and did so for operational reasons. As pointed out back then the Mac was the quicker race car for half those races, but operationally Lewis, Jensen and Macca werent working at the same level as Seb and the RB. Since the midpoint of the season, the Jensen/Mac side of the garage has got its act together and they have largely put a proper challenge to Seb. The Lewis side hasnt and Jensen has basically driven all over him.
Can someone put up a points table taken from Race 9 onwards? I suspect Seb and Jensen would be pretty close.
Seb takes the pace of the RB over one lap, applies maximum attack for the start of the race, then manages from there. As the BJ side of the garage has come together, they have used the better race pace of the Macca to attack the whole race, going after Seb and they have been pretty successful. The galling thing for Lewis will be that he hasnt been able to do that. Jensen hasnt just out-thought Lewis this year, he has out-fought him on the track and out-driven him.
Now my last couple of posts have been pretty critical of Lewis, well tough to the fanboys because he deserves it. Hamilton is the most naturally talented racer since Senna and Bellof and Gilles before him. Its just a flat out obvious fact. The last 2 years though he has bollixed it right up and the only person he has to blame has been himself. Macca have delivered him a car that could compete, challenge and beat Seb in this season and last. The car hasnt been as quick over a single lap, but over the race distance for the majority of races this year the Mac has been quicker. Macca have cost their drivers a few points on the operational side this year and last...but last year so did RB...but that hasnt stopped Jensen taking the fight to Seb and RB and beating them. Lewis is a quicker, more talented driver than BJ, but he is plain, flat out getting beat. Jensen has raised him game and Lewis cant compete at the moment and he certainly cant compete with the Seb/RB package and its entirely down to himself. Whatever is going on inside is hampering him. He needs to sort that, however, whatever it takes and come back. He does that and if Macca provide him with a car to challenge the RB, he should and will beat them. Whether he does or not is entirely down to whats inside his own little head. He needs to work out a gameplan, a way to extract the maximum pace from his car over the race and then ally his talents to that gameplan.
Macca handed Seb and RB the championship this year in the first 6 races and did so for operational reasons. As pointed out back then the Mac was the quicker race car for half those races, but operationally Lewis, Jensen and Macca werent working at the same level as Seb and the RB. Since the midpoint of the season, the Jensen/Mac side of the garage has got its act together and they have largely put a proper challenge to Seb. The Lewis side hasnt and Jensen has basically driven all over him.
Can someone put up a points table taken from Race 9 onwards? I suspect Seb and Jensen would be pretty close.
Seb takes the pace of the RB over one lap, applies maximum attack for the start of the race, then manages from there. As the BJ side of the garage has come together, they have used the better race pace of the Macca to attack the whole race, going after Seb and they have been pretty successful. The galling thing for Lewis will be that he hasnt been able to do that. Jensen hasnt just out-thought Lewis this year, he has out-fought him on the track and out-driven him.
Now my last couple of posts have been pretty critical of Lewis, well tough to the fanboys because he deserves it. Hamilton is the most naturally talented racer since Senna and Bellof and Gilles before him. Its just a flat out obvious fact. The last 2 years though he has bollixed it right up and the only person he has to blame has been himself. Macca have delivered him a car that could compete, challenge and beat Seb in this season and last. The car hasnt been as quick over a single lap, but over the race distance for the majority of races this year the Mac has been quicker. Macca have cost their drivers a few points on the operational side this year and last...but last year so did RB...but that hasnt stopped Jensen taking the fight to Seb and RB and beating them. Lewis is a quicker, more talented driver than BJ, but he is plain, flat out getting beat. Jensen has raised him game and Lewis cant compete at the moment and he certainly cant compete with the Seb/RB package and its entirely down to himself. Whatever is going on inside is hampering him. He needs to sort that, however, whatever it takes and come back. He does that and if Macca provide him with a car to challenge the RB, he should and will beat them. Whether he does or not is entirely down to whats inside his own little head. He needs to work out a gameplan, a way to extract the maximum pace from his car over the race and then ally his talents to that gameplan.
DJRC said:
Can someone put up a points table taken from Race 9 onwards? I suspect Seb and Jensen would be pretty close.
I'm a bit bored at work so here you go:From the British GP (round 9) onwards
Vettel: 138
Alonso: 115
Button: 101
Webber: 93
Hamilton: 81
(Apologies if I've worked that out wrong)
DJRC said:
Didnt realise how consistent Fred had been putting points together, but it shows a much more competitive championship than before. Points the way I think to a good few scraps in the last races.
Kind of like last year. He seems to score points under the radar (to me anyway), and then is right up there at the end of the season.DJRC said:
Didnt realise how consistent Fred had been putting points together, but it shows a much more competitive championship than before. Points the way I think to a good few scraps in the last races.
True, though Button did have a two DNFs during that period (loose wheel nut at Brit GP and a hydraulics issue and German GP) which dents his score a fair bitI posted this elsewhere in response to someone asking about Lewis taking a Sabbatical after reading this piece from Will Buxton http://willthef1journo.wordpress.com/2011/10/10/wh...
All this talk of "he needs people in the background to support him"
Bulls
t. Having Nicole whatshername going "you're great and I know you can do this" or his old man saying "go do it son"
How does that help ? To me that just adds to the pressure.
He has made mistakes this year, no doubt and he hasn't really shone as in previous years. I do think he's had a rough time from stewards, some penalties have been unfair.
I wouldn't be surprised if he thinks "dammed if I do, dammed if I don't". I think he tries to be honest and it doesn't help him. He was peeved about seeing stewards constantly and quite honestly remarked about it in a TV interview, but to try and make it light hearted he made a joke that maybe he'd make with friends, it backfired on him and the whole world beat up on him for it. So he takes advice of some god awful PR company and just keeps his mouth shut.. then they're still on his back because he isn't being "Lewis as we know him". The guy can't win.
He's got to do two things:
Stop thinking - About stewards, press, Red Bull, Button, Alonso - the whole fecking lot of them as well as the pressure he is putting on himself. He needs to get in the car and be 100% concentrated on what he's doing, I'm not totally sure he's ever had to do that this far because he's relied on his talent.
Learn the Pirellis better. He's always known for being a bit hard on tyres but the pirellis don't suit him. I'm not saying he's a tyre wrecker but I don't think he's the best tyre management guy out there. He needs to watch Button, take Japan for example - Button was controlling the race, Alonso started gaining but Button held his nerve whilst giving away 0.5-1sec a lap, then suddenly he picked up and was on Alonsos pace instantly, stabilised the gap and won.
I don't think Lewis could of done what Alonso did (saved tyres for an attack) or what Button did (saved tyres knowing what was coming) right now.
On bridgestones the tyres hit a plateau of wear, Lewis could cope with this and outpace rivals. The Pirellis don't work like that, the wear continually drops off until they hit "the cliff". I don't think anyone could keep the pace up.
He needs to figure out exactly how he wears tyres harder than others - setup ? more aggressive lines ? It could be as simple as he brakes harder and later consistently, which causes the wear. A car from mclaren that is super light on tyres would help.
Sabbatical ? no way, all he knows is racing, its his life - what else would he do ?
In fact I think thats half the reason why this is all a big struggle - racing is everything to him.
I hope he does go away for the winter and figures out how to attack 2012 for a WDC.
All this talk of "he needs people in the background to support him"
Bulls
t. Having Nicole whatshername going "you're great and I know you can do this" or his old man saying "go do it son"How does that help ? To me that just adds to the pressure.
He has made mistakes this year, no doubt and he hasn't really shone as in previous years. I do think he's had a rough time from stewards, some penalties have been unfair.
I wouldn't be surprised if he thinks "dammed if I do, dammed if I don't". I think he tries to be honest and it doesn't help him. He was peeved about seeing stewards constantly and quite honestly remarked about it in a TV interview, but to try and make it light hearted he made a joke that maybe he'd make with friends, it backfired on him and the whole world beat up on him for it. So he takes advice of some god awful PR company and just keeps his mouth shut.. then they're still on his back because he isn't being "Lewis as we know him". The guy can't win.
He's got to do two things:
Stop thinking - About stewards, press, Red Bull, Button, Alonso - the whole fecking lot of them as well as the pressure he is putting on himself. He needs to get in the car and be 100% concentrated on what he's doing, I'm not totally sure he's ever had to do that this far because he's relied on his talent.
Learn the Pirellis better. He's always known for being a bit hard on tyres but the pirellis don't suit him. I'm not saying he's a tyre wrecker but I don't think he's the best tyre management guy out there. He needs to watch Button, take Japan for example - Button was controlling the race, Alonso started gaining but Button held his nerve whilst giving away 0.5-1sec a lap, then suddenly he picked up and was on Alonsos pace instantly, stabilised the gap and won.
I don't think Lewis could of done what Alonso did (saved tyres for an attack) or what Button did (saved tyres knowing what was coming) right now.
On bridgestones the tyres hit a plateau of wear, Lewis could cope with this and outpace rivals. The Pirellis don't work like that, the wear continually drops off until they hit "the cliff". I don't think anyone could keep the pace up.
He needs to figure out exactly how he wears tyres harder than others - setup ? more aggressive lines ? It could be as simple as he brakes harder and later consistently, which causes the wear. A car from mclaren that is super light on tyres would help.
Sabbatical ? no way, all he knows is racing, its his life - what else would he do ?
In fact I think thats half the reason why this is all a big struggle - racing is everything to him.
I hope he does go away for the winter and figures out how to attack 2012 for a WDC.
NNNick said:
cayman-black said:
Castrol Craig said:
jesus wept, not this st again.
its becoming as much a part of PH folklore as
mx5
335d, mapped
throwing cans of red bull
powerfully built
oxo tower
polished pistons
ambiwlans
Blown Porsche engines.
What about KTC Pure Butter Ghee?t again.its becoming as much a part of PH folklore as
mx5
335d, mapped
throwing cans of red bull
powerfully built
oxo tower
polished pistons
ambiwlans
Blown Porsche engines.
DJRC said:
Well your first bit is true.
If Mansell is an all time great, then Im Chuck fking Yeager.
Mansell is an all time great. He is :If Mansell is an all time great, then Im Chuck f
king Yeager.1) Fourth overall in the history of the sport for grand prix wins
2) Fifth highest in terms of number of poles positionswin
3) He has a higher win percentage from total F1 starts than Fernando Alonso despite spending many years in poor cars.
4) He is the only driver in history to simultaneously hold both the F1 and Indy Car titles.
5) He lived long enough to see his induction into the motor sport hall of fame
6) Pretty much every pole or survey of any merit on the greatest Grand Prix drivers of all time includes Mansell in the top 10 - Murray Walker has him in the top 10.
Sorry, but the stats don't lie - his results put him clearly in with the greatest and he drove during a very competitive era of drivers, unlike say Schumacher.
Clevers said:
DJRC said:
Well your first bit is true.
If Mansell is an all time great, then Im Chuck fking Yeager.
Mansell is an all time great. He is :If Mansell is an all time great, then Im Chuck f
king Yeager.1) Fourth overall in the history of the sport for grand prix wins
2) Fifth highest in terms of number of poles positionswin
3) He has a higher win percentage from total F1 starts than Fernando Alonso despite spending many years in poor cars.
4) He is the only driver in history to simultaneously hold both the F1 and Indy Car titles.
5) He lived long enough to see his induction into the motor sport hall of fame
6) Pretty much every pole or survey of any merit on the greatest Grand Prix drivers of all time includes Mansell in the top 10 - Murray Walker has him in the top 10.
Sorry, but the stats don't lie - his results put him clearly in with the greatest and he drove during a very competitive era of drivers, unlike say Schumacher.
Crafty_ said:
Stop thinking - About stewards, press, Red Bull, Button, Alonso - the whole fecking lot of them as well as the pressure he is putting on himself. He needs to get in the car and be 100% concentrated on what he's doing
This. Totally.I think, rightly or wrongly, that Lewis is a rather sensitive person - certainly in the public eye, and is attuned to what the press say about him and what his acolytes praise him for. IMHO, both sides are probably right: the press for damning him, and his close friends for praising him. Yet I think both are as culpable as each other for f
king with Lewis' head to be honest.What he needs to do is adopt the Eddie Lawson mindset. "f
k the press, they're not the ones racing every other weekend. All I need to win is me, a good motorcycle, and a good race engineer.". Selfish? Yes. Productive? That attitude won Eddie four championships. Mick Doohan was exactly the same, and bagged five championships.All Lewis needs is a little focus.
kiteless said:
Crafty_ said:
Stop thinking - About stewards, press, Red Bull, Button, Alonso - the whole fecking lot of them as well as the pressure he is putting on himself. He needs to get in the car and be 100% concentrated on what he's doing
This. Totally.I think, rightly or wrongly, that Lewis is a rather sensitive person - certainly in the public eye, and is attuned to what the press say about him and what his acolytes praise him for. IMHO, both sides are probably right: the press for damning him, and his close friends for praising him. Yet I think both are as culpable as each other for f
king with Lewis' head to be honest.What he needs to do is adopt the Eddie Lawson mindset. "f
k the press, they're not the ones racing every other weekend. All I need to win is me, a good motorcycle, and a good race engineer.". Selfish? Yes. Productive? That attitude won Eddie four championships. Mick Doohan was exactly the same, and bagged five championships.All Lewis needs is a little focus.
What he can do is learn to understand it and control it.
MTR
Clevers said:
Mansell is an all time great. He is :
1) Fourth overall in the history of the sport for grand prix wins
2) Fifth highest in terms of number of poles positionswin
3) He has a higher win percentage from total F1 starts than Fernando Alonso despite spending many years in poor cars.
4) He is the only driver in history to simultaneously hold both the F1 and Indy Car titles.
5) He lived long enough to see his induction into the motor sport hall of fame
6) Pretty much every pole or survey of any merit on the greatest Grand Prix drivers of all time includes Mansell in the top 10 - Murray Walker has him in the top 10.
Sorry, but the stats don't lie - his results put him clearly in with the greatest and he drove during a very competitive era of drivers, unlike say Schumacher.
Stats are not most important here, very probably he has been the best racer ever. Such fighting spirit was absolute.
1) Fourth overall in the history of the sport for grand prix wins
2) Fifth highest in terms of number of poles positionswin
3) He has a higher win percentage from total F1 starts than Fernando Alonso despite spending many years in poor cars.
4) He is the only driver in history to simultaneously hold both the F1 and Indy Car titles.
5) He lived long enough to see his induction into the motor sport hall of fame
6) Pretty much every pole or survey of any merit on the greatest Grand Prix drivers of all time includes Mansell in the top 10 - Murray Walker has him in the top 10.
Sorry, but the stats don't lie - his results put him clearly in with the greatest and he drove during a very competitive era of drivers, unlike say Schumacher.
Stats are not most important here, very probably he has been the best racer ever. Such fighting spirit was absolute.
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