Has Button broken Hamilton?
Discussion
heebeegeetee said:
Why is it an excuse, or who is making excuses for who?
Everybody has their preferences. Some drivers prefer things in a certain way. Some things can be changed and some can't.
It may be the case that Hamilton can't do on current tyres that which he did on previous tyres, and that's that. Schumacher romped supreme in the formula that allowed for an optimum car at all times, but now he's not romping supreme anymore. Maybe it's age or maybe it's not. (Is age an excuse or a fact?)
Jenson didn't reign supreme during the 'optimum car' period and managers weren't falling over themselves to sign him, but under the current formula he is incredible and I'm sure any manager would want him.
When Hamilton was last doing well so was Massa. He isn't doing well any more either. Maybe it was the spring in the eye or maybe it isn't.
There aren't excuses for anyone, they're just thoughts.
I think it's worth mentioning for balance that Jenson didn't reign supreme during the optimum car period as only 1 driver during that period had the optimum car/tyres/team/handcuffed team mate and Jenson had a far from optimum car back in the day - how many races did Jenson's team-mates win during that period....? And didn't Honda/BAR pay him fairly high retainer and buy out his Williams contract so at least two teams during that period wanted him enough to go to Court over it... Granted he had a shaky time at Renault but check out the number of single seat races he'd done at that point?Everybody has their preferences. Some drivers prefer things in a certain way. Some things can be changed and some can't.
It may be the case that Hamilton can't do on current tyres that which he did on previous tyres, and that's that. Schumacher romped supreme in the formula that allowed for an optimum car at all times, but now he's not romping supreme anymore. Maybe it's age or maybe it's not. (Is age an excuse or a fact?)
Jenson didn't reign supreme during the 'optimum car' period and managers weren't falling over themselves to sign him, but under the current formula he is incredible and I'm sure any manager would want him.
When Hamilton was last doing well so was Massa. He isn't doing well any more either. Maybe it was the spring in the eye or maybe it isn't.
There aren't excuses for anyone, they're just thoughts.
It's a fair comment that Renault might have thought Alonso the better bet in 2002 as they could directly compare Alonso and Button though.
Button only ever got the No2 Renault, his team mate alonso got the No 1 car as his manager run the team.
IIRC his chief engineer was very poor, new to the job, or that level of the job.
In short, Jenson got tucked up, in hindsight, his career could have failed if the Brawn had not kicked ass, even then Brawn/Mercedes did not keep him and the McLaren seat came up somewhat unexpectedly.
To answer the thread title, no, not by a long way, Jenson is an exceptional F1 driver, but IMO Hamilton is simply the best I have seen in 35 years watching the sport.
IIRC his chief engineer was very poor, new to the job, or that level of the job.
In short, Jenson got tucked up, in hindsight, his career could have failed if the Brawn had not kicked ass, even then Brawn/Mercedes did not keep him and the McLaren seat came up somewhat unexpectedly.
To answer the thread title, no, not by a long way, Jenson is an exceptional F1 driver, but IMO Hamilton is simply the best I have seen in 35 years watching the sport.
Northern Munkee said:
The answer is no, but what is certainly true is that button has well and truly disproved the widely held view that Hamilton would break Button, as it was his team, as button not a McLaren man like Hamilton. When you remember how alonso Hamilton broke, Jenson going nowhere up till Brawn double diffuser, he has has been a revelation.
Widely accepted that race performance is 90% car and 10% driver - any of a dozen drivers would be up there on the podium if they were driving a MacLaren this year and a Red Bull the previous two years. But Jenson v Lewis is a different issue. In fact I'm not so sure it really is Jenson v Lewis rather than just Lewis.. I reckon Lewis has mind problems - I would say mental problems but those words suggest he's nuts which he clearly is not. But just look at his body language after Melbourne or his Maclaren rants or the lies he got caught out on or last years girlfriend problems and moans or his playing the race card. He comes over as a spoiled child. Certainly after being mothered by Maclaren all the way through his development he seems to have problems if everything doesnt go his way. Takes his bat home. Sulks ?
He isnt the first racing driver like this - both Vettel and in the old days Senna had form. But until he grows up Lewis will simply be a fast driver rather than a great one.
998420 said:
Brawn/Mercedes did not keep him and the McLaren seat came up somewhat unexpectedly.
The wide understanding is that Brawn wanted to keep him n'est pas?Also, if I am honest, whilst you feel Hamilton is the best you have seen in 35 years, I am afraid I have to say he isn't the best I have seen in 19 (since I was 8 and started paying attention).
I don't remember enough of Prost and Senna to judge unfortunately. But I would say Schumacher and Hakkinen were better at least. Though if Hamilton can calm it down half a shade he will surpass MH.
I have personally never understood the 'racing is about tyre smoke locking up banzai' stuff. Frankly I think it is virtue of watching too many hollywood films.
Racing is about getting from point A to point B first. And that is literally all there is to it to me. If that means driving using nous rather than the heaviest right foot, so be it.
OK, here's an argument for you all. Rather than Button, do you think Massa has broken Hamilton?
Allow me to explain...
Senna used to make a point of sticking his car in places where he left his opponent with a choice to either let him through or have an accident. It became a common occurrence and arguably gave him a great advantage because other drivers knew it would happen and effectively gave way rather than have a crash.
When Hamilton debuted in F1 I recall him driving around the outside of someone on the first corner of the first lap in his first GP. Awesome doesn't even begin to cover it and for the rest of the season and the next one it was the sort of audacious move he would regularly pull and many other drivers came away looking distinctly average by comparison.
Then you have the last couple of seasons where Hamilton has attempted the same type of moves, but they have all too often gone wrong. He's clashed with various drivers, but Massa most often and all of a sudden the threat is not on the other drivers that he's going to come past and they'll have to let him through, but instead they believe that if they just close the door or squeeze him a bit more then he may back out of it to avoid another crash.
Could it be that Hamilton is doing nothing different to his first couple of seasons, but simply that the other drivers have worked out how to stop him coming past and gained a psychological advantage that they never could with Senna?
His racecraft has effectively reached stalemate with his competitors and he lacks the car advantage to drive away on raw speed alone as Vettel has done for the previous two seasons.
Perhaps the difference with Hamilton and Button is that Hamilton is wondering where his advantage has gone whereas Button has surprising everyone and is in the psychological ascendancy...
Allow me to explain...
Senna used to make a point of sticking his car in places where he left his opponent with a choice to either let him through or have an accident. It became a common occurrence and arguably gave him a great advantage because other drivers knew it would happen and effectively gave way rather than have a crash.
When Hamilton debuted in F1 I recall him driving around the outside of someone on the first corner of the first lap in his first GP. Awesome doesn't even begin to cover it and for the rest of the season and the next one it was the sort of audacious move he would regularly pull and many other drivers came away looking distinctly average by comparison.
Then you have the last couple of seasons where Hamilton has attempted the same type of moves, but they have all too often gone wrong. He's clashed with various drivers, but Massa most often and all of a sudden the threat is not on the other drivers that he's going to come past and they'll have to let him through, but instead they believe that if they just close the door or squeeze him a bit more then he may back out of it to avoid another crash.
Could it be that Hamilton is doing nothing different to his first couple of seasons, but simply that the other drivers have worked out how to stop him coming past and gained a psychological advantage that they never could with Senna?
His racecraft has effectively reached stalemate with his competitors and he lacks the car advantage to drive away on raw speed alone as Vettel has done for the previous two seasons.
Perhaps the difference with Hamilton and Button is that Hamilton is wondering where his advantage has gone whereas Button has surprising everyone and is in the psychological ascendancy...
998420 said:
To answer the thread title, no, not by a long way, Jenson is an exceptional F1 driver, but IMO Hamilton is simply the best I have seen in 35 years watching the sport.
I respect your opinion but I can't see LH as the best of this years grid let alone the last 35 years. Are you accounting for 'future growth'?LH was running rings around other drivers in his first two years because, ferrari aside, he had a car advantage. He also equaled his 2xWDC team mate. But, he wasn't expected to ergo no pressure! Since that time he hasn't been so fortunate and struggled to come to terms with not having the fastest car, but was probably cushoned to some extent by having a sub standard team mat. In LH mind, he was still great it was all the cars fault!
Not withstanding his poor choice of management, which has had a great impact IMO...
Come 2010, JB turns up and everyone thinks, inc maybe LH as aconsequence of his belief that he is great and the car is at fault, that LH will own JB. After all, LH matched FA. Yeah, LH beat JB in 2010, but JB wasn't comfortable in the car and had some adjusting to do to fit in the team. But, JB kept his head down, and when the time came to influence the direction of the 2011 car, JB was forthright in his suggestion. At the end of 2010, LH was probably still thinking he was great, after all, he beat the 2009 WDC. But, the signs of JB not rolling over and taking it from LH were there; Turkey for example, was a warning shot from JB that LH ignored, probably due to his insulation from inter team rivalry.
2011 arrived and with a poor car! But, a poor car that JB fitted it to, and now JB was comfortable in the team as well as the car. JB was chipping away at LH, by either matching his pace or out thinking him in the race. All of a sudden, LH is wondering where HIS team has gone, and probably feeling a little resentment at the cosy atmospher JB had built around himself. Now instead of working to regain the support and rallying around his own engineering team, LH starts to throw a little blame arond for some of the teams mistakes. Not a good idea when there is a good alterative to LH in the next garage. LH is also having a tough time in his personnel life, which the media spin up. Anyway 2011 ends up being the first year LH has been comprehensivly beaten by a team mate.
The answer are all there.
LH was overconfident, believing the hype and not working to be better, because anyone can always improve.
LH was a little too insulated from inter team rivalry and politics. Dad was probably taking care of it for him.
LH Underestimated JB. As did a lot of pundits.
LH allowed himself to become distracted.
LH management, didn't manage him, they managed his business/brand value-parasites if you will.
To sum up, LH has allowed himself to be broken, JB has only played a small part in that fall from grace. The 5 key points above are all decisions that LH has either conciously/unconciously made.
The problem now is, unless LH beats JB by a good margin, this season and next if he stays, LH worth as a F1 driver will reduce. If he is percived as not being tier 1, then he will have to accept a No2 slot somewhere of a No1 slot in a mid field car.
All IMO, but that is how I see it.
Not withstanding his poor choice of management, which has had a great impact IMO...
Come 2010, JB turns up and everyone thinks, inc maybe LH as aconsequence of his belief that he is great and the car is at fault, that LH will own JB. After all, LH matched FA. Yeah, LH beat JB in 2010, but JB wasn't comfortable in the car and had some adjusting to do to fit in the team. But, JB kept his head down, and when the time came to influence the direction of the 2011 car, JB was forthright in his suggestion. At the end of 2010, LH was probably still thinking he was great, after all, he beat the 2009 WDC. But, the signs of JB not rolling over and taking it from LH were there; Turkey for example, was a warning shot from JB that LH ignored, probably due to his insulation from inter team rivalry.
2011 arrived and with a poor car! But, a poor car that JB fitted it to, and now JB was comfortable in the team as well as the car. JB was chipping away at LH, by either matching his pace or out thinking him in the race. All of a sudden, LH is wondering where HIS team has gone, and probably feeling a little resentment at the cosy atmospher JB had built around himself. Now instead of working to regain the support and rallying around his own engineering team, LH starts to throw a little blame arond for some of the teams mistakes. Not a good idea when there is a good alterative to LH in the next garage. LH is also having a tough time in his personnel life, which the media spin up. Anyway 2011 ends up being the first year LH has been comprehensivly beaten by a team mate.
The answer are all there.
LH was overconfident, believing the hype and not working to be better, because anyone can always improve.
LH was a little too insulated from inter team rivalry and politics. Dad was probably taking care of it for him.
LH Underestimated JB. As did a lot of pundits.
LH allowed himself to become distracted.
LH management, didn't manage him, they managed his business/brand value-parasites if you will.
To sum up, LH has allowed himself to be broken, JB has only played a small part in that fall from grace. The 5 key points above are all decisions that LH has either conciously/unconciously made.
The problem now is, unless LH beats JB by a good margin, this season and next if he stays, LH worth as a F1 driver will reduce. If he is percived as not being tier 1, then he will have to accept a No2 slot somewhere of a No1 slot in a mid field car.
All IMO, but that is how I see it.
groomi said:
OK, here's an argument for you all. Rather than Button, do you think Massa has broken Hamilton?
Allow me to explain...
Senna used to make a point of sticking his car in places where he left his opponent with a choice to either let him through or have an accident. It became a common occurrence and arguably gave him a great advantage because other drivers knew it would happen and effectively gave way rather than have a crash.
When Hamilton debuted in F1 I recall him driving around the outside of someone on the first corner of the first lap in his first GP. Awesome doesn't even begin to cover it and for the rest of the season and the next one it was the sort of audacious move he would regularly pull and many other drivers came away looking distinctly average by comparison.
Then you have the last couple of seasons where Hamilton has attempted the same type of moves, but they have all too often gone wrong. He's clashed with various drivers, but Massa most often and all of a sudden the threat is not on the other drivers that he's going to come past and they'll have to let him through, but instead they believe that if they just close the door or squeeze him a bit more then he may back out of it to avoid another crash.
Could it be that Hamilton is doing nothing different to his first couple of seasons, but simply that the other drivers have worked out how to stop him coming past and gained a psychological advantage that they never could with Senna?
His racecraft has effectively reached stalemate with his competitors and he lacks the car advantage to drive away on raw speed alone as Vettel has done for the previous two seasons.
Perhaps the difference with Hamilton and Button is that Hamilton is wondering where his advantage has gone whereas Button has surprising everyone and is in the psychological ascendancy...
Interesting angle!Allow me to explain...
Senna used to make a point of sticking his car in places where he left his opponent with a choice to either let him through or have an accident. It became a common occurrence and arguably gave him a great advantage because other drivers knew it would happen and effectively gave way rather than have a crash.
When Hamilton debuted in F1 I recall him driving around the outside of someone on the first corner of the first lap in his first GP. Awesome doesn't even begin to cover it and for the rest of the season and the next one it was the sort of audacious move he would regularly pull and many other drivers came away looking distinctly average by comparison.
Then you have the last couple of seasons where Hamilton has attempted the same type of moves, but they have all too often gone wrong. He's clashed with various drivers, but Massa most often and all of a sudden the threat is not on the other drivers that he's going to come past and they'll have to let him through, but instead they believe that if they just close the door or squeeze him a bit more then he may back out of it to avoid another crash.
Could it be that Hamilton is doing nothing different to his first couple of seasons, but simply that the other drivers have worked out how to stop him coming past and gained a psychological advantage that they never could with Senna?
His racecraft has effectively reached stalemate with his competitors and he lacks the car advantage to drive away on raw speed alone as Vettel has done for the previous two seasons.
Perhaps the difference with Hamilton and Button is that Hamilton is wondering where his advantage has gone whereas Button has surprising everyone and is in the psychological ascendancy...
Gaz. said:
groomi said:
OK, here's an argument for you all. Rather than Button, do you think Massa has broken Hamilton?
Allow me to explain...
Senna used to make a point of sticking his car in places where he left his opponent with a choice to either let him through or have an accident. It became a common occurrence and arguably gave him a great advantage because other drivers knew it would happen and effectively gave way rather than have a crash.
When Hamilton debuted in F1 I recall him driving around the outside of someone on the first corner of the first lap in his first GP. Awesome doesn't even begin to cover it and for the rest of the season and the next one it was the sort of audacious move he would regularly pull and many other drivers came away looking distinctly average by comparison.
Then you have the last couple of seasons where Hamilton has attempted the same type of moves, but they have all too often gone wrong. He's clashed with various drivers, but Massa most often and all of a sudden the threat is not on the other drivers that he's going to come past and they'll have to let him through, but instead they believe that if they just close the door or squeeze him a bit more then he may back out of it to avoid another crash.
Could it be that Hamilton is doing nothing different to his first couple of seasons, but simply that the other drivers have worked out how to stop him coming past and gained a psychological advantage that they never could with Senna?
His racecraft has effectively reached stalemate with his competitors and he lacks the car advantage to drive away on raw speed alone as Vettel has done for the previous two seasons.
Perhaps the difference with Hamilton and Button is that Hamilton is wondering where his advantage has gone whereas Button has surprising everyone and is in the psychological ascendancy...
It is really only Massa that Hamilton had repeated comings together with, everyone else on the track give each other space and know when they are beat, Hamilton included. Massa doesn't, especially if it is Lewis involved. Lewis & mark had a fantastic dice in Korea last year, Mark & Fred pulled off the overtake of the year at Spa, Lewis & Nico at Melbourne in 2010 etc.Allow me to explain...
Senna used to make a point of sticking his car in places where he left his opponent with a choice to either let him through or have an accident. It became a common occurrence and arguably gave him a great advantage because other drivers knew it would happen and effectively gave way rather than have a crash.
When Hamilton debuted in F1 I recall him driving around the outside of someone on the first corner of the first lap in his first GP. Awesome doesn't even begin to cover it and for the rest of the season and the next one it was the sort of audacious move he would regularly pull and many other drivers came away looking distinctly average by comparison.
Then you have the last couple of seasons where Hamilton has attempted the same type of moves, but they have all too often gone wrong. He's clashed with various drivers, but Massa most often and all of a sudden the threat is not on the other drivers that he's going to come past and they'll have to let him through, but instead they believe that if they just close the door or squeeze him a bit more then he may back out of it to avoid another crash.
Could it be that Hamilton is doing nothing different to his first couple of seasons, but simply that the other drivers have worked out how to stop him coming past and gained a psychological advantage that they never could with Senna?
His racecraft has effectively reached stalemate with his competitors and he lacks the car advantage to drive away on raw speed alone as Vettel has done for the previous two seasons.
Perhaps the difference with Hamilton and Button is that Hamilton is wondering where his advantage has gone whereas Button has surprising everyone and is in the psychological ascendancy...
I can't see any reason why he is still in F1, let alone racing for Ferrari.
As for this thread still going on, the simple way I see it is that many many people simply underrated Button (and still do!).
Hamilton isn't broken, he just has a very good teammate keeping him honest + a disappointing year behind (hopefully behind?) Him.
groomi said:
OK, here's an argument for you all. Rather than Button, do you think Massa has broken Hamilton?
Allow me to explain...
Senna used to make a point of sticking his car in places where he left his opponent with a choice to either let him through or have an accident. It became a common occurrence and arguably gave him a great advantage because other drivers knew it would happen and effectively gave way rather than have a crash.
When Hamilton debuted in F1 I recall him driving around the outside of someone on the first corner of the first lap in his first GP. Awesome doesn't even begin to cover it and for the rest of the season and the next one it was the sort of audacious move he would regularly pull and many other drivers came away looking distinctly average by comparison.
Then you have the last couple of seasons where Hamilton has attempted the same type of moves, but they have all too often gone wrong. He's clashed with various drivers, but Massa most often and all of a sudden the threat is not on the other drivers that he's going to come past and they'll have to let him through, but instead they believe that if they just close the door or squeeze him a bit more then he may back out of it to avoid another crash.
Could it be that Hamilton is doing nothing different to his first couple of seasons, but simply that the other drivers have worked out how to stop him coming past and gained a psychological advantage that they never could with Senna?
His racecraft has effectively reached stalemate with his competitors and he lacks the car advantage to drive away on raw speed alone as Vettel has done for the previous two seasons.
Perhaps the difference with Hamilton and Button is that Hamilton is wondering where his advantage has gone whereas Button has surprising everyone and is in the psychological ascendancy...
I actually think Massa is the one who was broken when he wa beaten by LH to the championship. Allow me to explain...
Senna used to make a point of sticking his car in places where he left his opponent with a choice to either let him through or have an accident. It became a common occurrence and arguably gave him a great advantage because other drivers knew it would happen and effectively gave way rather than have a crash.
When Hamilton debuted in F1 I recall him driving around the outside of someone on the first corner of the first lap in his first GP. Awesome doesn't even begin to cover it and for the rest of the season and the next one it was the sort of audacious move he would regularly pull and many other drivers came away looking distinctly average by comparison.
Then you have the last couple of seasons where Hamilton has attempted the same type of moves, but they have all too often gone wrong. He's clashed with various drivers, but Massa most often and all of a sudden the threat is not on the other drivers that he's going to come past and they'll have to let him through, but instead they believe that if they just close the door or squeeze him a bit more then he may back out of it to avoid another crash.
Could it be that Hamilton is doing nothing different to his first couple of seasons, but simply that the other drivers have worked out how to stop him coming past and gained a psychological advantage that they never could with Senna?
His racecraft has effectively reached stalemate with his competitors and he lacks the car advantage to drive away on raw speed alone as Vettel has done for the previous two seasons.
Perhaps the difference with Hamilton and Button is that Hamilton is wondering where his advantage has gone whereas Button has surprising everyone and is in the psychological ascendancy...
I get the feeling he absolutely despises LH for ruining his only ever chance to win and has been on a mental decline ever since.
LH's error is that he has allowed it to get to him whereas others would have got a boner from the situation.
Like all sports, the last 1% is usually a head game. JB isn't as fast a driver, but he has the right mentality and understands when to push and when to hold back. I think the different rules we've had since 2009 with the narrower rear wings haven't suited Lewis, and he has got frustrated. I honestly think at the end of this season, when his contract runs out, he needs to make a change, either to another team or to a different formula.
So if he's not frustrated, has the tyres to suit him, has wider wings, doesn't have woman/man issues and is given priority placement in the team, THEN that's him normal and he's a "better" driver?
Come on tae fook.
If i get the numbers right on Sat night i'll be a millionaire, that doesn't make me good at being rich.
The results will speak for themselves.
Yes, i will be playing now i've said that
Come on tae fook.
If i get the numbers right on Sat night i'll be a millionaire, that doesn't make me good at being rich.
The results will speak for themselves.
Yes, i will be playing now i've said that
The other observation is that LH has mentally been all over the shop since his Dad was replaced with a nice set of tits and arse.
I still think he's doing his growing up on company time and it's a phase he'll suddenly grow out of.
He's not nailed enough women yet to calm down and get his priorities correct
I still think he's doing his growing up on company time and it's a phase he'll suddenly grow out of.
He's not nailed enough women yet to calm down and get his priorities correct
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