Has Button broken Hamilton?
Discussion
stevesingo said:
LH was running rings around other drivers in his first two years because, ferrari aside, he had a car advantage. He also equaled his 2xWDC team mate. But, he wasn't expected to ergo no pressure! Since that time he hasn't been so fortunate and struggled to come to terms with not having the fastest car, but was probably cushoned to some extent by having a sub standard team mat. In LH mind, he was still great it was all the cars fault!
Not withstanding his poor choice of management, which has had a great impact IMO...
Come 2010, JB turns up and everyone thinks, inc maybe LH as aconsequence of his belief that he is great and the car is at fault, that LH will own JB. After all, LH matched FA. Yeah, LH beat JB in 2010, but JB wasn't comfortable in the car and had some adjusting to do to fit in the team. But, JB kept his head down, and when the time came to influence the direction of the 2011 car, JB was forthright in his suggestion. At the end of 2010, LH was probably still thinking he was great, after all, he beat the 2009 WDC. But, the signs of JB not rolling over and taking it from LH were there; Turkey for example, was a warning shot from JB that LH ignored, probably due to his insulation from inter team rivalry.
2011 arrived and with a poor car! But, a poor car that JB fitted it to, and now JB was comfortable in the team as well as the car. JB was chipping away at LH, by either matching his pace or out thinking him in the race. All of a sudden, LH is wondering where HIS team has gone, and probably feeling a little resentment at the cosy atmospher JB had built around himself. Now instead of working to regain the support and rallying around his own engineering team, LH starts to throw a little blame arond for some of the teams mistakes. Not a good idea when there is a good alterative to LH in the next garage. LH is also having a tough time in his personnel life, which the media spin up. Anyway 2011 ends up being the first year LH has been comprehensivly beaten by a team mate.
The answer are all there.
LH was overconfident, believing the hype and not working to be better, because anyone can always improve.
LH was a little too insulated from inter team rivalry and politics. Dad was probably taking care of it for him.
LH Underestimated JB. As did a lot of pundits.
LH allowed himself to become distracted.
LH management, didn't manage him, they managed his business/brand value-parasites if you will.
To sum up, LH has allowed himself to be broken, JB has only played a small part in that fall from grace. The 5 key points above are all decisions that LH has either conciously/unconciously made.
The problem now is, unless LH beats JB by a good margin, this season and next if he stays, LH worth as a F1 driver will reduce. If he is percived as not being tier 1, then he will have to accept a No2 slot somewhere of a No1 slot in a mid field car.
All IMO, but that is how I see it.
I think that is pretty much on the button! (excuse the pun)Not withstanding his poor choice of management, which has had a great impact IMO...
Come 2010, JB turns up and everyone thinks, inc maybe LH as aconsequence of his belief that he is great and the car is at fault, that LH will own JB. After all, LH matched FA. Yeah, LH beat JB in 2010, but JB wasn't comfortable in the car and had some adjusting to do to fit in the team. But, JB kept his head down, and when the time came to influence the direction of the 2011 car, JB was forthright in his suggestion. At the end of 2010, LH was probably still thinking he was great, after all, he beat the 2009 WDC. But, the signs of JB not rolling over and taking it from LH were there; Turkey for example, was a warning shot from JB that LH ignored, probably due to his insulation from inter team rivalry.
2011 arrived and with a poor car! But, a poor car that JB fitted it to, and now JB was comfortable in the team as well as the car. JB was chipping away at LH, by either matching his pace or out thinking him in the race. All of a sudden, LH is wondering where HIS team has gone, and probably feeling a little resentment at the cosy atmospher JB had built around himself. Now instead of working to regain the support and rallying around his own engineering team, LH starts to throw a little blame arond for some of the teams mistakes. Not a good idea when there is a good alterative to LH in the next garage. LH is also having a tough time in his personnel life, which the media spin up. Anyway 2011 ends up being the first year LH has been comprehensivly beaten by a team mate.
The answer are all there.
LH was overconfident, believing the hype and not working to be better, because anyone can always improve.
LH was a little too insulated from inter team rivalry and politics. Dad was probably taking care of it for him.
LH Underestimated JB. As did a lot of pundits.
LH allowed himself to become distracted.
LH management, didn't manage him, they managed his business/brand value-parasites if you will.
To sum up, LH has allowed himself to be broken, JB has only played a small part in that fall from grace. The 5 key points above are all decisions that LH has either conciously/unconciously made.
The problem now is, unless LH beats JB by a good margin, this season and next if he stays, LH worth as a F1 driver will reduce. If he is percived as not being tier 1, then he will have to accept a No2 slot somewhere of a No1 slot in a mid field car.
All IMO, but that is how I see it.
davepoth said:
JB isn't as fast a driver,
I wonder where 90% of the people get this conclusion from?! The thing is JB knows going faster brings more risk to retire from the race/qualifying, and I for some reason believe that if it was the last race of the championship and they were level with points 5 laps to go with the same car JB would come up faster..and I have my reasons to believe that 
LH simply can't cope with the pressure, and we have seen that not just one time...remember when he won his only WDC he was slow as f*ck in that last race and only luck brought him the title, if it was just a milimeter less of precipitation Massa would be the winner(now I'm not sure if that would be fair too but still).AreOut said:
I wonder where 90% of the people get this conclusion from?! The thing is JB knows going faster brings more risk to retire from the race/qualifying, and I for some reason believe that if it was the last race of the championship and they were level with points 5 laps to go with the same car JB would come up faster..and I have my reasons to believe that LH simply can't cope with the pressure, and we have seen that not just one time...remember when he won his only WDC he was slow as f*ck in that last race and only luck brought him the title, if it was just a milimeter less of precipitation Massa would be the winner(now I'm not sure if that would be fair too but still).
You pretty much admitted that Lewis is faster in the second sentence, so I'm not sure you need the first one. Not as consistent or as complete as Jenson right now, but I think he's changing. I suppose we'll see over the next few months! I don't think 2008 will be his only WDC at the end of his career though, nor do I think 2009 will be Jenson's. They're both incredibly talented, if in slightly different ways. LH simply can't cope with the pressure, and we have seen that not just one time...remember when he won his only WDC he was slow as f*ck in that last race and only luck brought him the title, if it was just a milimeter less of precipitation Massa would be the winner(now I'm not sure if that would be fair too but still).I just wanted to point out that JB knows WHEN is the time to get fast...an F1 race is not just one lap, F1 championship is not only one race. You can go through some curve 100 mph every time, and you can go through the same curve 103 mph 9 out of 10 times, it's up to you to manage how fast you will go through it...or do you think that LH has special gravity pack that helps him go through the bends faster? 
AreOut said:
I just wanted to point out that JB knows WHEN is the time to get fast...an F1 race is not just one lap, F1 championship is not only one race. You can go through some curve 100 mph every time, and you can go through the same curve 103 mph 9 out of 10 times, it's up to you to manage how fast you will go through it...or do you think that LH has special gravity pack that helps him go through the bends faster?
I'd probably agree with that first bit, he's the smarter driver right now. I like both drivers equally though. I want Lewis to drive more sensibly like Jenson does and I want Jenson to pull out those fast laps at times like Lewis does. I used to get annoyed that Jenson didn't seem to attack and overtake like Lewis does, but he's impressed, especially last season.AreOut said:
FloppyRaccoon said:
I used to get annoyed that Jenson didn't seem to attack and overtake like Lewis does,
while on the other side I think he took every REAL opportunity to do that... you can't overtake in almost every curve in Monaco like LH thought he could
Monaco was a bad race for him, but he's had others that were superb. I guess I was just saying that I think Jenson has improved in his overtaking abilities over the years, and I like that. I don't think Lewis has that edge over him any more. Scuffers said:
to be fair, the whole tyre thing is laughable...
I want to see them race, not fanny about 'managing' deliberately s
t tyres.
I couldn't agree more. The new regs in the last couple of years have produced what can only be described as 'artificial racing'. Driver skill, in the form of pure speed and pace, is not as an integral part of f1 as it should be.I want to see them race, not fanny about 'managing' deliberately s
t tyres.Whilst I understand the need to make f1 a spectacle, the route it has gone down to achieve it, has compromised too much driver skill.
I personally see right through it and don't see it has pure racing at all. I haven't enjoyed f1 as much since Pirelli's involvement, even though I recognise they are simply doing what has been asked of them.
OlberJ said:
Any clips of this "superb" driving that Hamilton has pulled off?
Genuinely interested to see it.
Well, you know, if...
There's lots on youtube of him beating his peers, be it in karting, FRenault, GP2 or F1. There's some great stuff from GP2 and F1. There's possibly more compilation clips put together of him than of any other recent driver.Genuinely interested to see it.
Well, you know, if...
For some reason though there's nothing from recent years that can be used.
Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff