RE: Team Lotus And Renault F1 Renamed

[Shotgun Rider]

DE15 CAT said:

I'm happy, the many arguments about who is the real Lotus (Colin Chapman)in modern form, will never end. I just think Lotus 7 road cars was Colin's fund raiser to pay for F1. Renault whenever bought Lotus road cars for marketing purposes. Caterham cars built Lotus 7 under licence, then bought that division, with generous terms allowed by Chapman over payment, to form Caterham 7, running race series for years while keeping the road going arm healthy & popular. IMO. years later Renault licence Team Lotus name quite cynically to Tony Fernandes, (who I think is a genuine Race fan) for a year 'various sub options in contract to extend(but not allowed)'. Let Fernandes test the F1 water, then try to steal goodwill and thunder, with 'we are the real Lotus'routine. So my opinion Caterham are the real Lotus descendent, Fernandes bought into Caterham, Clive Chapman Colin's son gave the famous cap in a presentation frame entitled 'In case of a win break glass' to Fernandes. Even they are not front runners (Brits support the underdog). LONG LIVE CATERHAM F1.

Proton own Lotus cars, not Renault.

[cathalm]

rico28 said:

Lotus cars still don't actually have any involvement with the F1 team though do they? It might now be called Team Lotus but the now Caterham has the true Lotus spirit IMO and I don't think anyone can take that away (for the time being).

Whatba load of cobblers. You clearly have as much knowledge of Lotus as I do French cheese (none).

[V8Dom]

ewenm said:

Caterham in F1 - brilliant!

they will only be caterham F1 once they have fitted cycle fenders on the front wheels ..

Dom

[Scuffers]

cathalm said:

Whatba load of cobblers. You clearly have as much knowledge of Lotus as I do French cheese (none).

OK, I'll bite...

apart from money, what physical/technical involvement does Group Lotus have in the F1 Team?

[andy_s]

Tony F is a great bloke I think, brilliant for Caterham to be on the same grid as Ferrari and McLaren, but it's also good that Lotus (group/cars) still have a team on the grid - two small UK car makers represented in F1 is just good - liking one doesn't exclude liking the other!

I wish them both well and hope to see Caterham up there with Lotus - perhaps not next season but maybe 2013.

[Jungles]

Caterham, eh? Will the 2012 have the worst-sounding F1 teams in history? Caterham and Marussia sound so clunky.

McLaren, Ferrari, Williams: cool and crisp.

Caterham and Marussia: slow and crap.

Have to admit, Red Bull and Lotus doesn't sound too flash, but at least they don't involve acrobatic maneouvres of the tongue.

[cathalm]

Scuffers, was actually talking about this business of dodgy Tony being the true Lotus or having their spirit, rather than the first part. Probably wasn't clear enough.

I would say two things to your good point though. First, what would you expect them to be doing a year after getting involved, it was stated from the beginning that this was the start of a long term project and that involvement would grow. The naming issue has held back further collaboration between Genii capital and GL. In fact you may see the things working the other way, with Genii ( the F1 team) having more involvement in GL rather than the other way round. Take your point though at this point it's just money but that's normal.

Secondly, what involvement other than money or renaming have Mercedes had, or Mercedes engines (a bought and renamed Ilmor) or jaguar or caterham or Honda or BMW or Renault ( in the last two years) had in the teams that wear their names? F1 teams are technically autonomous businesses without much cross pollination of technology from their road car parents. This was true of the old Team Lotus and is true of the Scuderia, a standalone business unit within The Fiat financial structure with it's own funding and dedicated staff.

There are double standards at work here.

[Scuffers]

cathalm said:

Secondly, what involvement other than money or renaming have Mercedes had, or Mercedes engines (a bought and renamed Ilmor) or jaguar or caterham or Honda or BMW or Renault ( in the last two years) had in the teams that wear their names? F1 teams are technically autonomous businesses without much cross pollination of technology from their road car parents. This was true of the old Team Lotus and is true of the Scuderia, a standalone business unit within The Fiat financial structure with it's own funding and dedicated staff.

There are double standards at work here.

to a point, yes.

the difference here is Lotus (as in GL) have been bullstting from the start about their input (same as they have foe the KL Indycar).

Honda did make their own engines, Merc brought Ilmore (and that factory also make some of the road car engines), BMW made engines, as do Renault (well, they design them, Mecachome make them).

point is, GL do not own the F1 team, they are just a sponsor, their total input so far is cash.

All the others actually own the teams.

[nickfrog]

Does anyone know if Renault (as in the car manufacturer) have anything to do with Formula 1 nowadays ? And if so, what ?

[davepoth]

Jungles said:

Caterham, eh? Will the 2012 have the worst-sounding F1 teams in history? Caterham and Marussia sound so clunky.

McLaren, Ferrari, Williams: cool and crisp.

Caterham and Marussia: slow and crap.

Have to admit, Red Bull and Lotus doesn't sound too flash, but at least they don't involve acrobatic maneouvres of the tongue.

Hate to rain on your parade but it's likely the Caterham will be as fast if not faster than the Williams. They're already there or thereabouts on race pace.

[Scuffers]

nickfrog said:

Does anyone know if Renault (as in the car manufacturer) have anything to do with Formula 1 nowadays ? And if so, what ?

they are still behind the F1 engine design etc...

[peter450]

andy_s said:

Tony F is a great bloke I think, brilliant for Caterham to be on the same grid as Ferrari and McLaren, but it's also good that Lotus (group/cars) still have a team on the grid - two small UK car makers represented in F1 is just good - liking one doesn't exclude liking the other!

I wish them both well and hope to see Caterham up there with Lotus - perhaps not next season but maybe 2013.

So great Hunt had to threaten to take him to court, over not paying for the Team Lotus name, i dont even know how that one ended

[Scuffers]

peter450 said:

andy_s said:

Tony F is a great bloke I think, brilliant for Caterham to be on the same grid as Ferrari and McLaren, but it's also good that Lotus (group/cars) still have a team on the grid - two small UK car makers represented in F1 is just good - liking one doesn't exclude liking the other!

I wish them both well and hope to see Caterham up there with Lotus - perhaps not next season but maybe 2013.

So great Hunt had to threaten to take him to court, over not paying for the Team Lotus name, i dont even know how that one ended

I suspect it was more a case of the deal not being completed until the court case over the use of the name was settled.

nobody is going to pay good money for something that they then can;t actually use are they?

[Peacockantony]

peter450 said:

So great Hunt had to threaten to take him to court, over not paying for the Team Lotus name, i dont even know how that one ended

It was never disclosed what the reason was. But it was most likely that it was not money for Team Lotus Ventures Ltd. If Tony had not paid for it, it would have been acknowledged that Tony did in fact own TLV Ltd in court, and it would have been David Hunt that was up against GL (a battle that has been fought numerous times before, all with the same end result, GL never getting the greedy hands on Team Lotus). David Hunt will have wanted more money to help Tony in the defence against GL. But as it turned out, David was not needed and they still won.

I hope that Tony keeps Team Lotus and then sues GL for every infringement of Team Lotus they make, they deserve no favours after the problems THAT THEY CREATED, through greed and inability to realise when you have lost something (which is wrong really, as to lose something. you have actually have to have owned it at one point, which is not the case with Team Lotus).

Edited by Peacockantony on Saturday 5th November 23:48

[peter450]

Scuffers said:

I suspect it was more a case of the deal not being completed until the court case over the use of the name was settled.

nobody is going to pay good money for something that they then can;t actually use are they?

The whole reason he bought it, was so he could carry on using the lotus name regardless of what GL Lotus wanted, and no doubt would have been aware of the disputed ownership around it

The point is people are making this guy out to be some "my word is my bond, and it's solid as an Oak" type character

TF is a businessman and will stretch the truth, etc to get what he wants

What he wanted was to buy up GL from Proton on the cheap, using his contacts with the Govt in Malaysia, is it any surprise GL under DB decided they did not really want to be in partnership with someone who

A was most likely going to have a back of the Grid Team
B was not even remotely interested in the revival plan succeeding, and simply wanted to buy the brand the current managment/proton are pumping in loads of cash to revive

My point is for people to stop trying to find hero's in there, there really aren't any!

And for anyone who wants TF to get control of lotus, see Aston Martin, currenty under some wealth fund, with no new cars and a endless round of rebodies and re-heats planned on the horizon, Every car maker the size of Lotus/AM/Lambo etc has gone bust under private ownership, Even Ferrari needed a Fiat buyout

TF would be disaster should it ever happen, a Roman Artioli version 2

Edited by peter450 on Sunday 6th November 09:32

[CDP]

TobesH said:

Imagine the updated Caterham website -

Now you can choose between the Caterham Graduate series from £20k including the car, or try our new offer, the world famous Formula One series, £20million and you get to take the car home at the end of season!

More to the point, an Asian built Caterham for the Chinese and Indian markets. Sports car racing will get really big over there and Caterham's in at the ground floor.

[rubystone]

peter450 said:

Scuffers said:

I suspect it was more a case of the deal not being completed until the court case over the use of the name was settled.

nobody is going to pay good money for something that they then can;t actually use are they?

The whole reason he bought it, was so he could carry on using the lotus name regardless of what GL Lotus wanted, and no doubt would have been aware of the disputed ownership around it

The point is people are making this guy out to be some "my word is my bond, and it's solid as an Oak" type character

TF is a businessman and will stretch the truth, etc to get what he wants

What he wanted was to buy up GL from Proton on the cheap, using his contacts with the Govt in Malaysia, is it any surprise GL under DB decided they did not really want to be in partnership with someone who

A was most likely going to have a back of the Grid Team
B was not even remotely interested in the revival plan succeeding, and simply wanted to buy the brand the current managment/proton are pumping in loads of cash to revive

My point is for people to stop trying to find hero's in there, there really aren't any!

And for anyone who wants TF to get control of lotus, see Aston Martin, currenty under some wealth fund, with no new cars and a endless round of rebodies and re-heats planned on the horizon, Every car maker the size of Lotus/AM/Lambo etc has gone bust under private ownership, Even Ferrari needed a Fiat buyout

TF would be disaster should it ever happen, a Roman Artioli version 2

Edited by peter450 on Sunday 6th November 09:32

Peter, you seem to have some interesting points to make, but you actually miss one important point about TF which I won't make on an open forum but is relevant to what he can and can't accomplish. I won't go any further than to say that he was not and will not be in any kind of position to buy Group Lotus.

And yes, in some ways you are right "private" ownership of a car firm is often a recipe for disaster, as is PE ownership too. But look to Jaguar/Land Rover for proof of how a car company can be successful in private hands.

[CDP]

rubystone said:

But look to Jaguar/Land Rover for proof of how a car company can be successful in private hands.

Or you always could hark back to the good old days of the nationalised British Leyland.

[Scuffers]

peter450 said:

And for anyone who wants TF to get control of lotus, see Aston Martin, currenty under some wealth fund, with no new cars and a endless round of rebodies and re-heats planned on the horizon, Every car maker the size of Lotus/AM/Lambo etc has gone bust under private ownership, Even Ferrari needed a Fiat buyout

TF would be disaster should it ever happen, a Roman Artioli version 2

may I remind you that without Roman Artioli, the Elise would probably never have seen the light, and Lotus would probably be dead.

[dingocooke]

This whole story is a perfect example of why F1 is such a turn off for many of us who can remember happier times in F1, when the driver/car/team combination was foremost and this sort of political tripe didn't exist!!
F1 is worse of because of it