The Official Bahrain GP Thread***SPOILERS***
Discussion
Eric Mc said:
What I am concerned about is the long term commercial sustainability of the sport and how it can survive without its European heart being ripped out in the chase for bigger and more glamoures venues in developing countries.
4 locations outside Europe, 9 inside Europe and then 7 outside again. F1 2012.1 location outside Europe, 9 inside Europe and then 3 outside again. F1 1970.
Errrrrrmmmmm, care to explain?
OK, I'll, rephrase.
I would include North and South America as "traditional" venues for F1 as they have both contributed to the history of the sport and its drivers, especially South America.
The non-European races in 1970 would have been mainly American (North South and Mid) and South Africa.
The non-European rounds today are in "new" venues with no history and no drivers of note. Even Japan, which many would say deserves a place in the championship circuit
a) because it has a good circuit
and
b) has a very important motor industry
Has contributed very little in the form of decent drivers and if it wasn't for Honda, not even much from a technical side.
I would include North and South America as "traditional" venues for F1 as they have both contributed to the history of the sport and its drivers, especially South America.
The non-European races in 1970 would have been mainly American (North South and Mid) and South Africa.
The non-European rounds today are in "new" venues with no history and no drivers of note. Even Japan, which many would say deserves a place in the championship circuit
a) because it has a good circuit
and
b) has a very important motor industry
Has contributed very little in the form of decent drivers and if it wasn't for Honda, not even much from a technical side.
Eric Mc said:
What I am concerned about is the long term commercial sustainability of the sport and how it can survive without its European heart being ripped out in the chase for bigger and more glamourous but soulless venues in developing countries.
I would share that concern - but then it's equally (or even more pronounced) in other sports. I cannot fathom how the business model of football is sustainable; there is a headlong rush across sports to chase the money, chase the new markets etc etc. All sports (and sports coverage - which to some degree is probably linked by £$€) have changed dramatically over the last few decades, F1 is not really different to any of the others.With F1, to me, one of Bernie's greatest crimes is chasing the money of the new world to set up GPs in the far east etc and at the time telling the world 'it's the future'... then several years later with empty grandstands but the venue's being propped up by the local governments, he spins it round that 'they need to react to the market - night races!' - so that the race is on at a 1/2 way decent time for....Europe!
Eric Mc said:
OK, I'll, rephrase.
I would include North and South America as "traditional" venues for F1 as they have both contributed to the history of the sport and its drivers, especially South America.
The non-European races in 1970 would have been mainly American (North South and Mid) and South Africa.
The non-European rounds today are in "new" venues with no history and no drivers of note. Even Japan, which many would say deserves a place in the championship circuit
a) because it has a good circuit
and
b) has a very important motor industry
Has contributed very little in the form of decent drivers and if it wasn't for Honda, not even much from a technical side.
See I wouldn't class North America as a traditional F1 venue, it had it's good years yes but the popularity of F1 has never matched any of the yanks home grown motorsport, particularly NASCAR. I would include North and South America as "traditional" venues for F1 as they have both contributed to the history of the sport and its drivers, especially South America.
The non-European races in 1970 would have been mainly American (North South and Mid) and South Africa.
The non-European rounds today are in "new" venues with no history and no drivers of note. Even Japan, which many would say deserves a place in the championship circuit
a) because it has a good circuit
and
b) has a very important motor industry
Has contributed very little in the form of decent drivers and if it wasn't for Honda, not even much from a technical side.
South America is very different imo, I think that does hold more of a tradition to the F1 calender, but that is currently taken care of for the last 30-40 years by Brazil and Argentina (which if rumours are to be believed is also due back on the calender).
I honestly don't see the problem with F1 going to new circuits as long as they are good to drive on and provide good racing (sadly that has lacked slightly). But to gain 'heritage' and a history in F1 it needs to be new at some point. There was a time when Suzuka was seen as a new circuit on the calender. If F1 is described as a World Championship then it should go around the world. Yes there should always be more races in Europe as that's where most of the teams/drivers are from. But there's racing talent outside of Europe and to get that interest F1 needs to go to new countries.
Eric Mc said:
Don't forget Mexico, which had plenty of GP races.
Well, they've 40 years... where are the teams from the Americas?Then look at the emerging areas and see that in a few short years teams have started to appear...
I'd say the emerging areas are promoting F1 better than the Americas ever did, apart from drivers and that will change soon enough.
Eric Mc said:
Not really.
The problem is that the venues have to pay BE/CVC over £40 million
I believe that the amount varies considerably. Silverstone pays something like $17m. Singapore is the highest fee at around $70mThe problem is that the venues have to pay BE/CVC over £40 million
This too is not simply a rights fee but the cost of providing a product (the provision of a Formula 1 race weekend and all that entails) - which will include a rather handsome margin.
Perhaps. The US has its own home grown motor sport and has never truly taken to Grand Prix racing.
But it certainly has a long history of motor sport and car manufacturing and engineeruing and technology.
I;m not sure how Bahrain, Abu Dhabi ir even Singapore fit into that scenario. China has apsirations as does India but I'm not altogether sure either of these countries will really ever become the technical inovators the west became.
To me F1 and motor sport in general is a Western activity and the only non-Western country that has truly embraced it is Japan.
But it certainly has a long history of motor sport and car manufacturing and engineeruing and technology.
I;m not sure how Bahrain, Abu Dhabi ir even Singapore fit into that scenario. China has apsirations as does India but I'm not altogether sure either of these countries will really ever become the technical inovators the west became.
To me F1 and motor sport in general is a Western activity and the only non-Western country that has truly embraced it is Japan.
I am minded towards the doomsayers. At some point F1 will implode, and someone (some people) somewhere will lose a lot of money.
The reason is that the Bernie model only works whilst he can find circuits (currently in the Middle and Far East) who are prepared to pay handsomely for the priveledge. At some point governments will decide that its not worth supporting a Grand Prix because they have achieved a status beyond that and they no longer need F1.
We already know that because circuits only receive the income from ticket sales and therefore the nun-supported races in Europe are struggling. When the days come that Governments no longer support races the fees paid by the circuiots to stage a race will fall, hence a loss of income to F1, and those that have invested in it. With a projected sale later this year people could be borrowing to invest in it and a loss of income will hit them hard.
Bernie has done well at making huge sums of money for himself and others from F1, but as RBS and HBOS discovered at some point the gravytrain stops and the buffers are hit.
The reason is that the Bernie model only works whilst he can find circuits (currently in the Middle and Far East) who are prepared to pay handsomely for the priveledge. At some point governments will decide that its not worth supporting a Grand Prix because they have achieved a status beyond that and they no longer need F1.
We already know that because circuits only receive the income from ticket sales and therefore the nun-supported races in Europe are struggling. When the days come that Governments no longer support races the fees paid by the circuiots to stage a race will fall, hence a loss of income to F1, and those that have invested in it. With a projected sale later this year people could be borrowing to invest in it and a loss of income will hit them hard.
Bernie has done well at making huge sums of money for himself and others from F1, but as RBS and HBOS discovered at some point the gravytrain stops and the buffers are hit.
Eric Mc said:
Perhaps. The US has its own home grown motor sport and has never truly taken to Grand Prix racing.
But it certainly has a long history of motor sport and car manufacturing and engineeruing and technology.
I;m not sure how Bahrain, Abu Dhabi ir even Singapore fit into that scenario. China has apsirations as does India but I'm not altogether sure either of these countries will really ever become the technical inovators the west became.
To me F1 and motor sport in general is a Western activity and the only non-Western country that has truly embraced it is Japan.
Brazil?But it certainly has a long history of motor sport and car manufacturing and engineeruing and technology.
I;m not sure how Bahrain, Abu Dhabi ir even Singapore fit into that scenario. China has apsirations as does India but I'm not altogether sure either of these countries will really ever become the technical inovators the west became.
To me F1 and motor sport in general is a Western activity and the only non-Western country that has truly embraced it is Japan.
Gene Vincent said:
The circuits didn't want to do a thing, death was part of the ticket to ride, it was part of the attraction to many who went.
Are you suggesting that Eccelstone was instrumental in increasing safety at circuits?What increased the importance of safety was the death of Senna, not even Ratzenberger. Once litigation and threats of criminal action against teams, the circuits and, most vitally, the FIA, then there was the desire. It has nothing to do with individuals apart from the death of one.
The specs for the modifications, and the warnings of what could happen, were there before their deaths. The FIA made the requirements and circuits had to follow.
If Ecclestone's heart was set on safety it was because the courts had hold of his balls.
matt3001 said:
Eric Mc said:
Perhaps. The US has its own home grown motor sport and has never truly taken to Grand Prix racing.
But it certainly has a long history of motor sport and car manufacturing and engineeruing and technology.
I;m not sure how Bahrain, Abu Dhabi ir even Singapore fit into that scenario. China has apsirations as does India but I'm not altogether sure either of these countries will really ever become the technical inovators the west became.
To me F1 and motor sport in general is a Western activity and the only non-Western country that has truly embraced it is Japan.
Brazil?But it certainly has a long history of motor sport and car manufacturing and engineeruing and technology.
I;m not sure how Bahrain, Abu Dhabi ir even Singapore fit into that scenario. China has apsirations as does India but I'm not altogether sure either of these countries will really ever become the technical inovators the west became.
To me F1 and motor sport in general is a Western activity and the only non-Western country that has truly embraced it is Japan.
Unlike Bahrain.
Eric Mc said:
Certainly has provided its fair share of F1 stars.
Unlike Bahrain.
That is a bit like complaining there are no Eritrean Polo players of note isn't it?Unlike Bahrain.
Are you saying that a Senna or Schumacher can't emerge from China, India or Bahrain?
I doubt you are, there were Brazilian motorsport drivers for years before they got a GP, it is just the other way 'round now, the track arrives and as [hopefully] a Bahranian or Korean star emerges the seed will take.
Rather than relying on playboy millionaires to get the country enthused F1 is putting the track there and the event.
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