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The Official Bahrain GP Thread***SPOILERS***

The Official Bahrain GP Thread***SPOILERS***

Author
Discussion

Eric Mc

98,272 posts

190 months

Tuesday 24th April 2012
quotequote all
llewop said:
Eric Mc said:
Sorry for sounding depressing but I just do not like the direction F1 has moved over the past ten years.
Wiki on the 2002 World Championship:
Michael Schumacher finished first or second in every race except for the Malaysian Grand Prix, where he finished third, thus achieving a podium poistion in every race. He won a record 11 Grands Prix, surpassing the previous record of 9 wins, jointly held by himself (1995, 2000 and 2001) and Nigel Mansell (1992). He would also set the record for shortest time in which the World Drivers Championship had been clinched, securing the title with a win at the French Grand Prix, with 6 races to go in the season.

On that basis: I'll take F1 V.2012 thanks!

(I do realise you're refering to other issues, not least the TV coverage and Mr E's influence - but couldn't resist with the parallel discussion re MSc's grump about tyres!)
I was not referring to events on track at all. Atr the moment the regs are giving us better racing than we had a few years ago (no complaints there). What I am concerned about is the long term commercial sustainability of the sport and how it can survive without its European heart being ripped out in the chase for bigger and more glamourous but soulless venues in developing countries.

Gene Vincent

4,002 posts

83 months

Tuesday 24th April 2012
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
What I am concerned about is the long term commercial sustainability of the sport and how it can survive without its European heart being ripped out in the chase for bigger and more glamoures venues in developing countries.
4 locations outside Europe, 9 inside Europe and then 7 outside again. F1 2012.

1 location outside Europe, 9 inside Europe and then 3 outside again. F1 1970.

Errrrrrmmmmm, care to explain?

Eric Mc

98,272 posts

190 months

Tuesday 24th April 2012
quotequote all
OK, I'll, rephrase.

I would include North and South America as "traditional" venues for F1 as they have both contributed to the history of the sport and its drivers, especially South America.

The non-European races in 1970 would have been mainly American (North South and Mid) and South Africa.

The non-European rounds today are in "new" venues with no history and no drivers of note. Even Japan, which many would say deserves a place in the championship circuit

a) because it has a good circuit

and

b) has a very important motor industry

Has contributed very little in the form of decent drivers and if it wasn't for Honda, not even much from a technical side.

llewop

2,812 posts

136 months

Tuesday 24th April 2012
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
What I am concerned about is the long term commercial sustainability of the sport and how it can survive without its European heart being ripped out in the chase for bigger and more glamourous but soulless venues in developing countries.
I would share that concern - but then it's equally (or even more pronounced) in other sports. I cannot fathom how the business model of football is sustainable; there is a headlong rush across sports to chase the money, chase the new markets etc etc. All sports (and sports coverage - which to some degree is probably linked by £$€) have changed dramatically over the last few decades, F1 is not really different to any of the others.

With F1, to me, one of Bernie's greatest crimes is chasing the money of the new world to set up GPs in the far east etc and at the time telling the world 'it's the future'... then several years later with empty grandstands but the venue's being propped up by the local governments, he spins it round that 'they need to react to the market - night races!' - so that the race is on at a 1/2 way decent time for....Europe!

DanDC5

12,238 posts

92 months

Tuesday 24th April 2012
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
OK, I'll, rephrase.

I would include North and South America as "traditional" venues for F1 as they have both contributed to the history of the sport and its drivers, especially South America.

The non-European races in 1970 would have been mainly American (North South and Mid) and South Africa.

The non-European rounds today are in "new" venues with no history and no drivers of note. Even Japan, which many would say deserves a place in the championship circuit

a) because it has a good circuit

and

b) has a very important motor industry

Has contributed very little in the form of decent drivers and if it wasn't for Honda, not even much from a technical side.
See I wouldn't class North America as a traditional F1 venue, it had it's good years yes but the popularity of F1 has never matched any of the yanks home grown motorsport, particularly NASCAR.

South America is very different imo, I think that does hold more of a tradition to the F1 calender, but that is currently taken care of for the last 30-40 years by Brazil and Argentina (which if rumours are to be believed is also due back on the calender).

I honestly don't see the problem with F1 going to new circuits as long as they are good to drive on and provide good racing (sadly that has lacked slightly). But to gain 'heritage' and a history in F1 it needs to be new at some point. There was a time when Suzuka was seen as a new circuit on the calender. If F1 is described as a World Championship then it should go around the world. Yes there should always be more races in Europe as that's where most of the teams/drivers are from. But there's racing talent outside of Europe and to get that interest F1 needs to go to new countries.
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Eric Mc

98,272 posts

190 months

Tuesday 24th April 2012
quotequote all
Don't forget Mexico, which had plenty of GP races.

DanDC5

12,238 posts

92 months

Tuesday 24th April 2012
quotequote all
Did forget that to be honest. I think Mexico would be more relevant for F1 than going back to Argentina at the moment to be honest with Perez on the grid now, especially if/when he goes to Ferrari.

Gene Vincent

4,002 posts

83 months

Tuesday 24th April 2012
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
Don't forget Mexico, which had plenty of GP races.
Well, they've 40 years... where are the teams from the Americas?

Then look at the emerging areas and see that in a few short years teams have started to appear...

I'd say the emerging areas are promoting F1 better than the Americas ever did, apart from drivers and that will change soon enough.

StevieBee

6,159 posts

180 months

Tuesday 24th April 2012
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
Not really.

The problem is that the venues have to pay BE/CVC over £40 million
I believe that the amount varies considerably. Silverstone pays something like $17m. Singapore is the highest fee at around $70m

This too is not simply a rights fee but the cost of providing a product (the provision of a Formula 1 race weekend and all that entails) - which will include a rather handsome margin.

Eric Mc

98,272 posts

190 months

Tuesday 24th April 2012
quotequote all
Perhaps. The US has its own home grown motor sport and has never truly taken to Grand Prix racing.
But it certainly has a long history of motor sport and car manufacturing and engineeruing and technology.

I;m not sure how Bahrain, Abu Dhabi ir even Singapore fit into that scenario. China has apsirations as does India but I'm not altogether sure either of these countries will really ever become the technical inovators the west became.

To me F1 and motor sport in general is a Western activity and the only non-Western country that has truly embraced it is Japan.

IainT

10,040 posts

163 months

Tuesday 24th April 2012
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
To me F1 and motor sport in general is a Western activity and the only non-Western country that has truly embraced it is Japan.
If you look at the common denominator to all those that can afford those types of leisure activities.

Moley RUFC

2,671 posts

114 months

Tuesday 24th April 2012
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
My prediction - at the end of this season Brundle will retire from Sky TV.
Utter tosh

Chrisgr31

10,615 posts

180 months

Tuesday 24th April 2012
quotequote all
I am minded towards the doomsayers. At some point F1 will implode, and someone (some people) somewhere will lose a lot of money.

The reason is that the Bernie model only works whilst he can find circuits (currently in the Middle and Far East) who are prepared to pay handsomely for the priveledge. At some point governments will decide that its not worth supporting a Grand Prix because they have achieved a status beyond that and they no longer need F1.

We already know that because circuits only receive the income from ticket sales and therefore the nun-supported races in Europe are struggling. When the days come that Governments no longer support races the fees paid by the circuiots to stage a race will fall, hence a loss of income to F1, and those that have invested in it. With a projected sale later this year people could be borrowing to invest in it and a loss of income will hit them hard.

Bernie has done well at making huge sums of money for himself and others from F1, but as RBS and HBOS discovered at some point the gravytrain stops and the buffers are hit.

Eric Mc

98,272 posts

190 months

Tuesday 24th April 2012
quotequote all
Moley RUFC said:
Eric Mc said:
My prediction - at the end of this season Brundle will retire from Sky TV.
Utter tosh
We shall see.

rubystone

11,153 posts

184 months

Tuesday 24th April 2012
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
We shall see.
Eric, why do you think he will retire?

ETA, if he does, he will have nowhere to go - the Beeb will pull out of F1 completely at the end of this season.

Eric Mc

98,272 posts

190 months

Tuesday 24th April 2012
quotequote all
It's a pure feeling - nothing more.

I just don't think he is enjoying it as much as he did last year.

matt3001

1,765 posts

122 months

Tuesday 24th April 2012
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
Perhaps. The US has its own home grown motor sport and has never truly taken to Grand Prix racing.
But it certainly has a long history of motor sport and car manufacturing and engineeruing and technology.

I;m not sure how Bahrain, Abu Dhabi ir even Singapore fit into that scenario. China has apsirations as does India but I'm not altogether sure either of these countries will really ever become the technical inovators the west became.

To me F1 and motor sport in general is a Western activity and the only non-Western country that has truly embraced it is Japan.
Brazil?

Derek Smith

29,461 posts

173 months

Tuesday 24th April 2012
quotequote all
Gene Vincent said:
The circuits didn't want to do a thing, death was part of the ticket to ride, it was part of the attraction to many who went.
Are you suggesting that Eccelstone was instrumental in increasing safety at circuits?

What increased the importance of safety was the death of Senna, not even Ratzenberger. Once litigation and threats of criminal action against teams, the circuits and, most vitally, the FIA, then there was the desire. It has nothing to do with individuals apart from the death of one.

The specs for the modifications, and the warnings of what could happen, were there before their deaths. The FIA made the requirements and circuits had to follow.

If Ecclestone's heart was set on safety it was because the courts had hold of his balls.

Eric Mc

98,272 posts

190 months

Tuesday 24th April 2012
quotequote all
matt3001 said:
Eric Mc said:
Perhaps. The US has its own home grown motor sport and has never truly taken to Grand Prix racing.
But it certainly has a long history of motor sport and car manufacturing and engineeruing and technology.

I;m not sure how Bahrain, Abu Dhabi ir even Singapore fit into that scenario. China has apsirations as does India but I'm not altogether sure either of these countries will really ever become the technical inovators the west became.

To me F1 and motor sport in general is a Western activity and the only non-Western country that has truly embraced it is Japan.
Brazil?
Certainly has provided its fair share of F1 stars.

Unlike Bahrain.

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

180 months

Tuesday 24th April 2012
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
Certainly has provided its fair share of F1 stars.

Unlike Bahrain.
And now they have a half decent circuit, maybe we will in future... The same as India, China, and so on. Maybe bringing these races there will encourage, and enthuse the next generation?