Silverstone BTCC

[EDLT]

GreenMan said:

Just a few points here in the interests of accuracy:

- Neal didn't say the Honda's engine produces "less boost": ahead of the season, all of the engines were submitted to an independent lab to assess the flow efficiency of the heads. Based on this assessment of engine efficiency, baseline boost pressures were calculated with the intention of ensuring that all the cars started the year with similar engine performance.

So why were they complaining about lack of boost/power at the beginning of the season, did they get a reduction before the first race, there were rumours of it iirc.

[decadence]

jasonplato said:

Im wasting my time in this forum, some of you people are total and utter fools. Then we get to Decadence, lordy lordy, you need to see a doctor.
Would people please take the biased fan glasses off. The best thing people could do is understand the rules, then you might have something constructive to say.

I will leave you with some more facts.(although i'm sure certain people will not take the facts on-board)

All the turbo engines were analysed at the beginning of the season by turbo engine experts appointed by TOCA to check flow rates, torque and BHP, the baseline boost pressure for each engine was then set to equalise the advantages/disadvantages that the various engines may have due to their basic design. An in season rolling boost adjustment calculation was agreed by all the teams. In simple terms, lap times from the 2 previous race meetings (qual, R1,R2 and R3) are used to decide the boost adjustments. The formula for this adjustment was decided and agreed by all the teams at the beginning of the season. For the record, boost adjustments can only go up and not down from the baseline boost. So when people say Hondas boost has been reduced, they are talking rubbish. What it means is that Honda have not had a boost increase because their lap times from the previous 2 race meetings mean they were the quickest! For the record, only the fastest car is taken into account when adjusting the boost.

Maybe we might have a sensible thread, but I doubt it.

Ding ding

Thank you for the information Jason. But can you explain why you said this at Knockhill then??




Plato also hit out at the equalisation measures in the series, which mean that some cars are allowed to run more turbo boost than others.

"His (Arron Smith) performance has been increased by the power," added Plato. "It's frustrating beyond belief."

I can change a few things in that:

Decadence also hit out at the equalisation measures in the series, which mean that some cars are allowed to run more turbo boost than others.

"His (Jason Plato) performance has been increased by the power," added Decadence. "It's frustrating beyond belief."

[GreenMan]

I don't know if they got a last minute reduction before Brands, but I'd be very surprised if they did (unless there had been a miscalculation somewhere which was corrected before round 1). I think Matt/Honda's official line was that the pre-season flow testing and subsequent baseline boost calculations were unfair as they started the year with a baseline pressure below that of most of the rest of the grid, due to the highly efficient inherent design of the Honda engine. You'd expect them to say that; I expect every team felt they should have had an extra 0.05 bar of baseline pressure for one reason or another :-). In the end the engine design that Dynamics/NBE/Honda chose to base their NGTC engine on was "too good"!

[Allyc85]

decadence said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLrnkK2YEcE

[decadence]

jasonplato said:

For the record, boost adjustments can only go up and not down from the baseline boost. So when people say Hondas boost has been reduced, they are talking rubbish.

If all teams start at baseline boost, and by silverstone everyone bar Honda have had their boost increased.......then Hondas boost is less than other cars right?

So they may not of had boost reduced, but if all other have been increased, your just splitting hairs...Honda have less boost than MG to make up for the better package of car and drivers.....

I dont blame Jason i blame Alan Gow.....i'll let Jason expalin how i feel about Alan Gow....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC2EAxKxUqQ&fea...

[airbusA346]

Mark Benson said:

Have a look for 'Motorsport UK' on one of the ITV channels, usually at some obscure time. Over the few weeks following the event most of the support races will be shown.

From the 2 support races I've seen so far (I recorded the entire ITV4 programme on Sunday) and my own experience of racing the Club circuit at Silverstone, be prepared for a bit of a dull procession in most races.

I am after the Formula Renault races, because we (the team I work for) competed in those races.

[decadence]

Allyc85 said:

decadence said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLrnkK2YEcE

Tune!

What I don't get is that Jason can moan about Arron Smith having too much boost and have a whine about the regulations, but I cant do the same?
Why is it one rule for him and another for me?
Plato pretty much redefined moaning in 2011. it's the hypocrisy I hate.
the only person I support in BTCC is Rob Austin. I don't care for Honda or anyone much else, all I want is pretty fair racing and where the best aren't pegged back to make others catch up....
Jason has been around long enough for me to know he's a fantastic race car driver, I just don't like the way if he wins the regs and boosts are perfect Alan..... of he loses... Alan the regs are wrong, boosts are unfair..

Edited by decadence on Tuesday 9th October 19:52

[anonymous-user]

decadence said:

Allyc85 said:

decadence said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLrnkK2YEcE

Tune!

What I don't get is that Jason can moan about Arron Smith having too much boost and have a whine about the regulations, but I cant do the same?

Why is it one rule for him and another for me?

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 9th October 19:52

That's Jason for you!

[Ponk]

jasonplato said:

Im wasting my time in this forum, some of you people are total and utter fools. Then we get to Decadence, lordy lordy, you need to see a doctor.
Would people please take the biased fan glasses off. The best thing people could do is understand the rules, then you might have something constructive to say.

I will leave you with some more facts.(although i'm sure certain people will not take the facts on-board)

All the turbo engines were analysed at the beginning of the season by turbo engine experts appointed by TOCA to check flow rates, torque and BHP, the baseline boost pressure for each engine was then set to equalise the advantages/disadvantages that the various engines may have due to their basic design. An in season rolling boost adjustment calculation was agreed by all the teams. In simple terms, lap times from the 2 previous race meetings (qual, R1,R2 and R3) are used to decide the boost adjustments. The formula for this adjustment was decided and agreed by all the teams at the beginning of the season. For the record, boost adjustments can only go up and not down from the baseline boost. So when people say Hondas boost has been reduced, they are talking rubbish. What it means is that Honda have not had a boost increase because their lap times from the previous 2 race meetings mean they were the quickest! For the record, only the fastest car is taken into account when adjusting the boost.

Maybe we might have a sensible thread, but I doubt it.

Ding ding

I have to say thanks for contributing, same goes for Ollie. It's fantastic to be able to get insights like this.

[_Batty_]

+1.
JP, even as BTCC followers I didn't know about the boost equalisation as it rarely mentioned.
To have racers such as you and Ollie contribute to such a small pokey thread is very much appreciated (by 99% of us anyway.)
Tv coverage is dumbed down too far, and having it explained (with speed trap info etc) is very informative.
No brown nose, just appreciate the contributions.
Matt

[MGJohn]

_Batty_ said:

+1.
JP, even as BTCC followers I didn't know about the boost equalisation as it rarely mentioned.
To have racers such as you and Ollie contribute to such a small pokey thread is very much appreciated (by 99% of us anyway.)
Tv coverage is dumbed down too far, and having it explained (with speed trap info etc) is very informative.
No brown nose, just appreciate the contributions.
Matt

Well said Batty ... I found those details from JP very informative.
.

[LiamM45]

jasonplato said:

Im wasting my time in this forum, some of you people are total and utter fools. Then we get to Decadence, lordy lordy, you need to see a doctor.
Would people please take the biased fan glasses off. The best thing people could do is understand the rules, then you might have something constructive to say.

I will leave you with some more facts.(although i'm sure certain people will not take the facts on-board)

All the turbo engines were analysed at the beginning of the season by turbo engine experts appointed by TOCA to check flow rates, torque and BHP, the baseline boost pressure for each engine was then set to equalise the advantages/disadvantages that the various engines may have due to their basic design. An in season rolling boost adjustment calculation was agreed by all the teams. In simple terms, lap times from the 2 previous race meetings (qual, R1,R2 and R3) are used to decide the boost adjustments. The formula for this adjustment was decided and agreed by all the teams at the beginning of the season. For the record, boost adjustments can only go up and not down from the baseline boost. So when people say Hondas boost has been reduced, they are talking rubbish. What it means is that Honda have not had a boost increase because their lap times from the previous 2 race meetings mean they were the quickest! For the record, only the fastest car is taken into account when adjusting the boost.

Maybe we might have a sensible thread, but I doubt it.

Ding ding

So let me get this straight..

Whether a team gets a boost increase or not depends on their fastest average lap from the previous rounds? So for example Honda go quickest, MG second, WSR third. In the next round Honda's boost stays at the baseline then MG get a percentage increase, and then WSR would get a slightly larger increase, and so on down the field? The aim on paper being to bring those teams closer for the next round?

I don't understand why they just don't set the boost level and leave it so it's the same for everyone.

[Graham]

LiamM45 said:

I don't understand why they just don't set the boost level and leave it so it's the same for everyone.

because trying to level a load of different cars isnt an exact science, and in many ways a bit of a hopeless task.


your always going to find a particular car that has an advantage somewhere what ever your regulations are.


they fiddle around with things to try and get the parity right to level the playing field or <conspiracy mode on> to keep the pantomine going </conspiracy mode on>

[LiamM45]

Graham said:

because trying to level a load of different cars isnt an exact science, and in many ways a bit of a hopeless task.


your always going to find a particular car that has an advantage somewhere what ever your regulations are.


they fiddle around with things to try and get the parity right to level the playing field or <conspiracy mode on> to keep the pantomine going </conspiracy mode on>

but the engines are control unit aren't they? or have i read wrong?

So level playing field on the engines and boost levels and then surely it's down to aero, geo and damping setup and the driver? Of course one car will be quicker, it's the team who manage to get that little lot right

[Munter]

LiamM45 said:

but the engines are control unit aren't they? or have i read wrong?

So level playing field on the engines and boost levels and then surely it's down to aero, geo and damping setup and the driver? Of course one car will be quicker, it's the team who manage to get that little lot right

If by control unit you mean all the same engine. Then no. There is an NGTC engine that a team can buy off the shelf. But teams can also build their own to the NGTC specs. The effect of this is that if the Honda head flows much better than say the VW, then the Honda will make more power than the VW at the same boost level.

Lotus spent time calculating the flows through the heads to calculate a baseline boost which should give parity between the engines as much as is possible.

[fatboy69]

If that is the case, & my knowledge of engineering is virtually non existant tbh, surely the simple answer is to give all the teams the same engine.

Built by one supplier, seal the engines so they cannot be tampered with in any way which then means that any 'performance' advantage is down to the car design, the aero, the set up &, dare I say it, the talent/skill of the driver....

Simple.

Isn't it?

[egomeister]

fatboy69 said:

If that is the case, & my knowledge of engineering is virtually non existant tbh, surely the simple answer is to give all the teams the same engine.

Built by one supplier, seal the engines so they cannot be tampered with in any way which then means that any 'performance' advantage is down to the car design, the aero, the set up &, dare I say it, the talent/skill of the driver....

Simple.

Isn't it?

Not really...

What attraction is there for manufacturers if they aren't allowed to use their own engine? By all means have a spec engine as an option, but it shouldn't be mandatory.

[BMR]

If the boost calculation is based on lap times, even all cars having the same engines will result in different lap times due to handling. So a better chassis (like Honda say they have) would mean their boost wouldn't be as high as others..

[AMD87]

fatboy69 said:

I hate turbo's in racing because as we see from the BTCC you will never please everyone all of the time & someone, rightly or wrongly, will always be aggrieved over boost levels etc etc.

So is the simple answer to not use the sodding things at all? Why not set a maximum cc level - I think 3500 sounds about right (would prefer 5000 but some people on here seem to think that's a daft idea).

That way of all the cars run to the same capacity & all have the same number of cylinders - 8 seems a good number to me -- which then reduces the opportunity for people to whinge.

I did mention 5 litre V8's yesterday along with a budget cap. One person said he thought that a budget cap was funny but oddly didn't quantify exactly why he thought it was funny.

I also said a budget cap works in F1 so why not in BTCC?

If the cars ran to the same basic engine spec then the racing would, or should, be purer & the best drivers will win the races.

I suspect we all know who those might be however even then people would still bh about it!

All this bhing on PH is getting tiresome as are the on track squabbles & shunts although that has been a part of touring car racing for as long as I can remember which, for the benefit of MGJohn, is way back into the 70's.

At least JP has posted some interesting stuff although not being technically minded when it to comes to boost etc I dont profess to understanding it in great detail so I will leave that to those who do understand.

I am looking forward to the racing at Brands Hatch but I'm not looking forward to the moaning & bhing that will inevitably go with the racing.

You haven't read a V8 supercars rule book lately have you? Why not have a look at it and you'll spot one issue straight away.

[fatboy69]

I haven't read any rule books let alone the Aussie V8 rules so have no idea what the problem might be.

At the rate that the BTCC is going the bhing, whinging & moaning will do more harm that good because we all know that when the teams get to Brands in 10 days time there will be mutterings about more boost for some, less boost for others, he has less ballast that me etc etc & all that will, rightly or wrongly, spill over onto the track & onto to web forums such as this.

All everyone wants, I assume anyway, is to see good quality racing without the usual crapmat the end of each race.

If using an engine built by one supplier is not the solution why not drop the turbo engines & as I said introduce formula of 3.5 litre V8's for everyone.

Surely that would be easier to regulate thatvn the current rules?

I will, if I can find them, read the Aussie V8 rule book.

If the above isn't an option what is? Anyone got any solutions or suggestions?