Suzuka 1989, proof Prost took Senna out deliberately
Discussion
LukeBrown66 said:
Do you know what amazes me about this?
Alain said beforehand he was not going to keep doors open for him, he told Ayrton, the press even his team.
And he didn't
Yet Senna fans always raise this as proof. Of course it is proof, he said he was going to do it all along if Senna tried it on.
If you need proof of anything I suggest you find the throttle trace for Suzuka 1990 and the fact this idiot took out a fellow human being deliberately at 150+mph in a strop about politics. Fair play to Ayrton even he admitted this years later, despite trying to suggest to the very clearly not convinced Jackie Stewart (or Stewart as he disrespectfully called him) that this was about being a racing driver gong for gaps.
Yes what Alain did was wrong, but Ayrton was a cretin for believing that Alain would not do it, he relied on Alain, as usual opening the door.
It was the only time in his career that Alain did anything like this, it was clumsy and he was awful at it, know why? it was totally not his way, but in this case he made a decision at the slowest part of the track to do it, knowing he was leaving and Honda were up Senna's arse since 88 anyway, that is how un natural to him, Ayrton though was a natural at taking people out, ask numerous drivers.
This makes sense - apart from I think when Ayrton called Jackie "Stewart" he just confused the first two names. Alain said beforehand he was not going to keep doors open for him, he told Ayrton, the press even his team.
And he didn't
Yet Senna fans always raise this as proof. Of course it is proof, he said he was going to do it all along if Senna tried it on.
If you need proof of anything I suggest you find the throttle trace for Suzuka 1990 and the fact this idiot took out a fellow human being deliberately at 150+mph in a strop about politics. Fair play to Ayrton even he admitted this years later, despite trying to suggest to the very clearly not convinced Jackie Stewart (or Stewart as he disrespectfully called him) that this was about being a racing driver gong for gaps.
Yes what Alain did was wrong, but Ayrton was a cretin for believing that Alain would not do it, he relied on Alain, as usual opening the door.
It was the only time in his career that Alain did anything like this, it was clumsy and he was awful at it, know why? it was totally not his way, but in this case he made a decision at the slowest part of the track to do it, knowing he was leaving and Honda were up Senna's arse since 88 anyway, that is how un natural to him, Ayrton though was a natural at taking people out, ask numerous drivers.
confucuis said:
I think the only way it can be seen as conclusive proof is to see Prost's line during qualifying or the previous laps of that race leading up to the incident.
I know I've looked at Senna's onboards before and during the initial braking phase he's a good two cars behind prost and still sends it up the inside. I still think it was Prost's corner and he was allowed take his normal racing line which at that moment was occupied by Senna, it was typical of Senna's "give me this place or we crash" tactics which Prost indulged in this case, a bit like Max and Hamilton at Silverstone.
He turned in far too early, (clearly deliberately) and had Senna not been there he would have been mowing the inside cornerI know I've looked at Senna's onboards before and during the initial braking phase he's a good two cars behind prost and still sends it up the inside. I still think it was Prost's corner and he was allowed take his normal racing line which at that moment was occupied by Senna, it was typical of Senna's "give me this place or we crash" tactics which Prost indulged in this case, a bit like Max and Hamilton at Silverstone.
Wrong
You forget the context, all year Prost had let him go in these incidents, this time he told the team, the press and Ayrton (indirectly as hissy fit was not talking to him) what he was going to do this time, he was not going to open the door.
Senna was arrogant enough to think Alain would just do what he usually did and leave the door open to avoid contact, Alain did not, he closed the door in an unusually aggressive for him way and caused the collision. Senna though he could bully him, as usual, and Alain chose the perfect moment and place to make sure the ensuing incident would not cause any damage to either.
Unlike the same race in 1990 when Senna basically tried to take a human being out at 150 mph deliberately.
Whatever Alain did in 89 and it was bad, is nothing even close, remotely, contextually, physically or mentally to what Senna did in 1990 which he should have in my mind been banned for a year for.
It was so bad he even had to admit it in later years.
You forget the context, all year Prost had let him go in these incidents, this time he told the team, the press and Ayrton (indirectly as hissy fit was not talking to him) what he was going to do this time, he was not going to open the door.
Senna was arrogant enough to think Alain would just do what he usually did and leave the door open to avoid contact, Alain did not, he closed the door in an unusually aggressive for him way and caused the collision. Senna though he could bully him, as usual, and Alain chose the perfect moment and place to make sure the ensuing incident would not cause any damage to either.
Unlike the same race in 1990 when Senna basically tried to take a human being out at 150 mph deliberately.
Whatever Alain did in 89 and it was bad, is nothing even close, remotely, contextually, physically or mentally to what Senna did in 1990 which he should have in my mind been banned for a year for.
It was so bad he even had to admit it in later years.
LukeBrown66 said:
Wrong
You forget the context, all year Prost had let him go in these incidents, this time he told the team, the press and Ayrton (indirectly as hissy fit was not talking to him) what he was going to do this time, he was not going to open the door.
Senna was arrogant enough to think Alain would just do what he usually did and leave the door open to avoid contact, Alain did not, he closed the door in an unusually aggressive for him way and caused the collision. Senna though he could bully him, as usual, and Alain chose the perfect moment and place to make sure the ensuing incident would not cause any damage to either.
Unlike the same race in 1990 when Senna basically tried to take a human being out at 150 mph deliberately.
Whatever Alain did in 89 and it was bad, is nothing even close, remotely, contextually, physically or mentally to what Senna did in 1990 which he should have in my mind been banned for a year for.
It was so bad he even had to admit it in later years.
To think people think Schumacher was dirty and Senna god like You forget the context, all year Prost had let him go in these incidents, this time he told the team, the press and Ayrton (indirectly as hissy fit was not talking to him) what he was going to do this time, he was not going to open the door.
Senna was arrogant enough to think Alain would just do what he usually did and leave the door open to avoid contact, Alain did not, he closed the door in an unusually aggressive for him way and caused the collision. Senna though he could bully him, as usual, and Alain chose the perfect moment and place to make sure the ensuing incident would not cause any damage to either.
Unlike the same race in 1990 when Senna basically tried to take a human being out at 150 mph deliberately.
Whatever Alain did in 89 and it was bad, is nothing even close, remotely, contextually, physically or mentally to what Senna did in 1990 which he should have in my mind been banned for a year for.
It was so bad he even had to admit it in later years.
Everybody but Senna fans care about context.
I have explained it very well, Alain said he would not leave the door open, Senna thought it was an empty threat, he tried a move from a very long way back, possibly catching Alain by surprise but true to his word he did NOT keep the door open, he closed it firmly making sure they both came to a stop with likely damage.
Nothing I have said mentions Senna causing the incident, other than it being a move from a very long way back, Alain closed to door, ensured there was contact and was perfectly happy to leave the scene on foot.
the French decided the rest
I have explained it very well, Alain said he would not leave the door open, Senna thought it was an empty threat, he tried a move from a very long way back, possibly catching Alain by surprise but true to his word he did NOT keep the door open, he closed it firmly making sure they both came to a stop with likely damage.
Nothing I have said mentions Senna causing the incident, other than it being a move from a very long way back, Alain closed to door, ensured there was contact and was perfectly happy to leave the scene on foot.
the French decided the rest
I don't think you would find many people who agree that Prost just drove into him without any attempt to make the corner.
That is what Senna did in 1990, at a much higher and more dangerous speed.
Alain simply did what he sad which was to NOT open the door and let Ayrtons brain fart moves just get done as he had done since about 1985! numerous times. If Ayrton had managed to slow up enough they would have both got round the corner, but his move was a bit reckless and Alain's defence was plainly a close the door to prevent you passing whatever the cost. But he did make an effort to get into the bend, albeit with the clear aim to make sure Senna did not pass.
I canny make it more clear than that.
And let's be clear here, Alain only ever tried to do this once in his entire career, and he made it look fairly clumsy at best. It was maybe not as natural to him as it was to Senna.
That is what Senna did in 1990, at a much higher and more dangerous speed.
Alain simply did what he sad which was to NOT open the door and let Ayrtons brain fart moves just get done as he had done since about 1985! numerous times. If Ayrton had managed to slow up enough they would have both got round the corner, but his move was a bit reckless and Alain's defence was plainly a close the door to prevent you passing whatever the cost. But he did make an effort to get into the bend, albeit with the clear aim to make sure Senna did not pass.
I canny make it more clear than that.
And let's be clear here, Alain only ever tried to do this once in his entire career, and he made it look fairly clumsy at best. It was maybe not as natural to him as it was to Senna.
LukeBrown66 said:
I don't think you would find many people who agree that Prost just drove into him without any attempt to make the corner.
That is what Senna did in 1990, at a much higher and more dangerous speed.
Alain simply did what he sad which was to NOT open the door and let Ayrtons brain fart moves just get done as he had done since about 1985! numerous times. If Ayrton had managed to slow up enough they would have both got round the corner, but his move was a bit reckless and Alain's defence was plainly a close the door to prevent you passing whatever the cost. But he did make an effort to get into the bend, albeit with the clear aim to make sure Senna did not pass.
I canny make it more clear than that.
And let's be clear here, Alain only ever tried to do this once in his entire career, and he made it look fairly clumsy at best. It was maybe not as natural to him as it was to Senna.
Utter bThat is what Senna did in 1990, at a much higher and more dangerous speed.
Alain simply did what he sad which was to NOT open the door and let Ayrtons brain fart moves just get done as he had done since about 1985! numerous times. If Ayrton had managed to slow up enough they would have both got round the corner, but his move was a bit reckless and Alain's defence was plainly a close the door to prevent you passing whatever the cost. But he did make an effort to get into the bend, albeit with the clear aim to make sure Senna did not pass.
I canny make it more clear than that.
And let's be clear here, Alain only ever tried to do this once in his entire career, and he made it look fairly clumsy at best. It was maybe not as natural to him as it was to Senna.
ks. confucuis said:
I think the only way it can be seen as conclusive proof is to see Prost's line during qualifying or the previous laps of that race leading up to the incident.
I know I've looked at Senna's onboards before and during the initial braking phase he's a good two cars behind prost and still sends it up the inside. I still think it was Prost's corner and he was allowed take his normal racing line which at that moment was occupied by Senna, it was typical of Senna's "give me this place or we crash" tactics which Prost indulged in this case, a bit like Max and Hamilton at Silverstone.
He turned in far too early, (clearly deliberately) and had Senna not been there he would have been mowing the inside cornerI know I've looked at Senna's onboards before and during the initial braking phase he's a good two cars behind prost and still sends it up the inside. I still think it was Prost's corner and he was allowed take his normal racing line which at that moment was occupied by Senna, it was typical of Senna's "give me this place or we crash" tactics which Prost indulged in this case, a bit like Max and Hamilton at Silverstone.
Another point, tell me a time when Alain did anything like this ever again?
he made a mistake passing Piquet at Zabdvoort in 83, but he simply lost control, I can't recall many times hen Alain even hit anyone else, let alone deliberately.
I can count on two hands the times Senna did it, and surely that has to be the point.
He was an amazing talent and man, but Prost was the cleaner driver, unequivocally I would say, He closed the door on Senna in 89 for sure, but he told him he was going to and the idiot still thought he could bully him.
he made a mistake passing Piquet at Zabdvoort in 83, but he simply lost control, I can't recall many times hen Alain even hit anyone else, let alone deliberately.
I can count on two hands the times Senna did it, and surely that has to be the point.
He was an amazing talent and man, but Prost was the cleaner driver, unequivocally I would say, He closed the door on Senna in 89 for sure, but he told him he was going to and the idiot still thought he could bully him.
fesuvious said:
As the footage above shows it was Sennas corner.
Perfectly legal move in that he drove down the inside of the track. With more than entire other cars width in-between them.
I can't be any more clear than to say that to shut the door it has to be yours to shut. Mathematically, positionally, the corner belonged to Ayrton.
The corner wasn't Sennas. Prost was ahead going into it so it was still Prosts corner at the point he turned in. Perfectly legal move in that he drove down the inside of the track. With more than entire other cars width in-between them.
I can't be any more clear than to say that to shut the door it has to be yours to shut. Mathematically, positionally, the corner belonged to Ayrton.
I'd be very surprised if Senna even made the chicane at the speed he was coming in. He certainly would have been extremely deep and had a poor exit.
fesuvious
You again seem to state that the driver should or could avoiding action, I reiterate that Prost had said all week that he would no longer do this if it meant he could possibly stay in front in a battle, he was no longer going to open the door when Senna tried one of his death or glory moves.
So some, albeit not much blame goes on him for not thinking Alain would stick to his word, he tried to bully him and it didn't work.
No-one here is saying Prost did not close the door or not see him, he played a calculated card in presuming that contact at a very slow speed might take them both out, and it nearly worked, a very Prost move.
Senna had tried this numerous times during the year, indeed had reneged on an agreement at Imola which is where all this hatred started as he simply would not admit he was wrong, even when presented with the facts by Prost Dennis and Hogan from Marlboro.
So would you trust Prost in that situation? He was stupid to think it would not happen, they literally hated each other by this time, and this was Alain being dirty for once in his career.
I will submit he caused the crash, but not all the blame is Prosts, some of it is on Senna too.
You again seem to state that the driver should or could avoiding action, I reiterate that Prost had said all week that he would no longer do this if it meant he could possibly stay in front in a battle, he was no longer going to open the door when Senna tried one of his death or glory moves.
So some, albeit not much blame goes on him for not thinking Alain would stick to his word, he tried to bully him and it didn't work.
No-one here is saying Prost did not close the door or not see him, he played a calculated card in presuming that contact at a very slow speed might take them both out, and it nearly worked, a very Prost move.
Senna had tried this numerous times during the year, indeed had reneged on an agreement at Imola which is where all this hatred started as he simply would not admit he was wrong, even when presented with the facts by Prost Dennis and Hogan from Marlboro.
So would you trust Prost in that situation? He was stupid to think it would not happen, they literally hated each other by this time, and this was Alain being dirty for once in his career.
I will submit he caused the crash, but not all the blame is Prosts, some of it is on Senna too.
Well, I've tried to avoid this thread...
Wow! That camera angle makes Prost look really bad given the context of Prost telling the whole world he would not leave the door open but then it convincingly - IMO - taking the racing line.
Other angles tell a better story for objective analysis.
It's a racing incident. I could never solidly conclude who to lay blame on; I go through stages thinking it was Senna-Prost-Senna; Senna making another banzai move and am unsure whether or not Prost's manoeuvre was of deliberate, malicious intent. I don't think Prost himself even knew what "not leaving the door open" entailed.
Wow! That camera angle makes Prost look really bad given the context of Prost telling the whole world he would not leave the door open but then it convincingly - IMO - taking the racing line.
Other angles tell a better story for objective analysis.
It's a racing incident. I could never solidly conclude who to lay blame on; I go through stages thinking it was Senna-Prost-Senna; Senna making another banzai move and am unsure whether or not Prost's manoeuvre was of deliberate, malicious intent. I don't think Prost himself even knew what "not leaving the door open" entailed.
I would agree with that last statement in so much as I dont think doing this kind of thing came easily to Alain, hence he made it look awful, did it at the minimum speed, which also therefore meant that the damage done was potentially not race ending. Unlike Senna in 1990 who did a proper job
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