Brands Hatch BTCC
Discussion
decadence said:
Well what I mean would be for example like with Mat Jscksons focus it's officially fastest car through speed traps so has a status as quickest car in straight line.
Which would be irrelevant if it handled like a bag of s
t round the corners.decadence said:
it's good for Fords PR,
How much input/concern do you think Ford have over Motorbase?decadence said:
Repeated the same old stuff again.
It's been explained to you several times how it works and the fact that all the teams signed up to, and agreed those terms, at the beginning of the season.
Seriously, if you don't like the effect the rules have on the series go and watch something else instead.
I prefer Turbocharged engines. After all said and done, normally aspirated engines suck.
So will the dreaded Plato's ugly MG6 have a shedload of ballast come kick off time at Brands? Maybe not and the ballast load will be shed. MG6 with boost "reduction" and with the "increased" boost of the EuroBlob Hodna hatches, will they benefit with a 1-2-3 ?
I strongly suspect a yes to that Hodna 1-2-3 in front of the MG6 even if neither team are first across the line unless that apparently beautifully handling MG6 at the last event's race three was not an illusion and JP's post race assessment of it was truly spot on. To my aged minces it did appear to be handling exceptionally well, into and out of the twists and turns was looking more than a tad useful.
I'm off to check the odds with the on-line bookies. Could be some 'value' to be had there ...
Shed, shed .... SHED ... Oh please yourselves.
So will the dreaded Plato's ugly MG6 have a shedload of ballast come kick off time at Brands? Maybe not and the ballast load will be shed. MG6 with boost "reduction" and with the "increased" boost of the EuroBlob Hodna hatches, will they benefit with a 1-2-3 ?
I strongly suspect a yes to that Hodna 1-2-3 in front of the MG6 even if neither team are first across the line unless that apparently beautifully handling MG6 at the last event's race three was not an illusion and JP's post race assessment of it was truly spot on. To my aged minces it did appear to be handling exceptionally well, into and out of the twists and turns was looking more than a tad useful.
I'm off to check the odds with the on-line bookies. Could be some 'value' to be had there ...
Shed, shed .... SHED ... Oh please yourselves.
Roo said:
decadence said:
Well what I mean would be for example like with Mat Jscksons focus it's officially fastest car through speed traps so has a status as quickest car in straight line.
Which would be irrelevant if it handled like a bag of st round the corners.decadence said:
it's good for Fords PR,
How much input/concern do you think Ford have over Motorbase?decadence said:
Repeated the same old stuff again.
It's been explained to you several times how it works and the fact that all the teams signed up to, and agreed those terms, at the beginning of the season.
Seriously, if you don't like the effect the rules have on the series go and watch something else instead.
point about Motorbase is that the chance of Ford returning to the fold as factory support is nil if any money they provide gets a boost penalty when they get success.
I am allowed to have an opinion on the current BTCC. if you don't like it, stop reading my posts and responding...
kimducati said:
decadence said:
This whole "they have a quicker car" "parity" argument started in 2011 when basically Honda went turbo and Chevy RML stayed with n/a and asked for "parity", then the whole season was marked by moaning and petty squabbles, but ultimately that was RMLs choice to run n/a.. like picking the fat kid at school for the 3 legged race race then moaning when you lost..
In the interest of historical accuracy, may I point out that RML (and others) didn't ASK for parity, they were PROMISED it, pre season, in the regulations.Very different, n'est pas?
Kim
And let's not forget that Plato brought out the 'pay driver' 'pretend racing driver' debate into the open... he's yet again done quite a few things this season which bring the sport into disrepute.
He's no drivers Union rep, his out burst towards Aron Smith backs that up, he's in it for himself . There's a massive MG / Plato bias on this forum, feels a bit like Platos PR team are posting sometimes....
jasonplato said:
Look Guys and girls,
The formula for changing the boost after each race was agreed by all the teams at the beginning of the year. This calculation is done mathematically based on lap time averages of qualifying, and races over a rolling 2 race meeting basis. There is no human intervention.
As far as the initial boost settings prior to the season, this was calculated by engine experts who analysed each engine type/make and set the base line boost pressure to equalise the various engine outputs, both torque and BHP.
This is absolutely necessary as some engines will be better or less suited to a racing environment and will produce better or worse figures than other manufactures. This was again agreed by all the teams prior to the season. What we need to have is all engines at the first race of the year outputting very similar or near identical BHP and Torque figures, this was achieved by the pre season engine tests.
Not sure what you are arguing about now.
if it is that all engines should be on the same boost pressure at the beginning of the year? well this just simply would not work, those with the best base engine would win everything.
It has to be a level playing field at the beginning and then about the driver and team improving the chassis to get the advantage. I for one do not want to be being passed on the straights or passing on the straights.
Hope this clears things up.
JP
JP, thanks for continuing to drop in here with the odd insight, even though not everything you read here is in your favour(!) There are those who value that kind of access to/input from the sportsmen they make time to watch on weekends.The formula for changing the boost after each race was agreed by all the teams at the beginning of the year. This calculation is done mathematically based on lap time averages of qualifying, and races over a rolling 2 race meeting basis. There is no human intervention.
As far as the initial boost settings prior to the season, this was calculated by engine experts who analysed each engine type/make and set the base line boost pressure to equalise the various engine outputs, both torque and BHP.
This is absolutely necessary as some engines will be better or less suited to a racing environment and will produce better or worse figures than other manufactures. This was again agreed by all the teams prior to the season. What we need to have is all engines at the first race of the year outputting very similar or near identical BHP and Torque figures, this was achieved by the pre season engine tests.
Not sure what you are arguing about now.
if it is that all engines should be on the same boost pressure at the beginning of the year? well this just simply would not work, those with the best base engine would win everything.
It has to be a level playing field at the beginning and then about the driver and team improving the chassis to get the advantage. I for one do not want to be being passed on the straights or passing on the straights.
Hope this clears things up.
JP
Reardy Mister said:
jasonplato said:
Look Guys and girls,
The formula for changing the boost after each race was agreed by all the teams at the beginning of the year. This calculation is done mathematically based on lap time averages of qualifying, and races over a rolling 2 race meeting basis. There is no human intervention.
As far as the initial boost settings prior to the season, this was calculated by engine experts who analysed each engine type/make and set the base line boost pressure to equalise the various engine outputs, both torque and BHP.
This is absolutely necessary as some engines will be better or less suited to a racing environment and will produce better or worse figures than other manufactures. This was again agreed by all the teams prior to the season. What we need to have is all engines at the first race of the year outputting very similar or near identical BHP and Torque figures, this was achieved by the pre season engine tests.
Not sure what you are arguing about now.
if it is that all engines should be on the same boost pressure at the beginning of the year? well this just simply would not work, those with the best base engine would win everything.
It has to be a level playing field at the beginning and then about the driver and team improving the chassis to get the advantage. I for one do not want to be being passed on the straights or passing on the straights.
Hope this clears things up.
JP
JP, thanks for continuing to drop in here with the odd insight, even though not everything you read here is in your favour(!) There are those who value that kind of access to/input from the sportsmen they make time to watch on weekends.The formula for changing the boost after each race was agreed by all the teams at the beginning of the year. This calculation is done mathematically based on lap time averages of qualifying, and races over a rolling 2 race meeting basis. There is no human intervention.
As far as the initial boost settings prior to the season, this was calculated by engine experts who analysed each engine type/make and set the base line boost pressure to equalise the various engine outputs, both torque and BHP.
This is absolutely necessary as some engines will be better or less suited to a racing environment and will produce better or worse figures than other manufactures. This was again agreed by all the teams prior to the season. What we need to have is all engines at the first race of the year outputting very similar or near identical BHP and Torque figures, this was achieved by the pre season engine tests.
Not sure what you are arguing about now.
if it is that all engines should be on the same boost pressure at the beginning of the year? well this just simply would not work, those with the best base engine would win everything.
It has to be a level playing field at the beginning and then about the driver and team improving the chassis to get the advantage. I for one do not want to be being passed on the straights or passing on the straights.
Hope this clears things up.
JP
"Plato also hit out at the equalisation measures in the series, which mean that some cars are allowed to run more turbo boost than others.
"His performance (Aron Smith) has been increased by the power," added Plato. "It's frustrating beyond belief."
How could Arons performance of been increased by having more power? According to Platos post all is swell with the way the regs are working...
Because Plato has made that coment after Knockhill it then feeds peoples minds to these dark arts within ToCA...... now either Aron was just quick through ability (which Jason wont admit) or quick cause of more boost (Jasons words), either way Plato has moaned about the regs till Silverstone.
Edited by decadence on Friday 19th October 10:23
spikey78 said:
For gods sake man-just leave it alone will you!
I don't particularly care for the BTCC for one reason or another, but I do like a bit of an online 'debate' however this one is well and truly done.
So why pray tell did you pop into a thread about the BTCC at Brands Hatch?I don't particularly care for the BTCC for one reason or another, but I do like a bit of an online 'debate' however this one is well and truly done.
Have you seen the amount of sections and threads on here?
Find one you DO like and head there..this clearly isnt the place for you.
Whether the debate is good or bad cant be judged by someone who states they dont even like or follow BTCC!!
And how exactly can a debate be 'done' in your opinion when the race hasn't even occurred yet?!
FFS!
Edited by decadence on Friday 19th October 11:21
Reardy Mister said:
jasonplato said:
Look Guys and girls,
The formula for changing the boost after each race was agreed by all the teams at the beginning of the year. This calculation is done mathematically based on lap time averages of qualifying, and races over a rolling 2 race meeting basis. There is no human intervention.
As far as the initial boost settings prior to the season, this was calculated by engine experts who analysed each engine type/make and set the base line boost pressure to equalise the various engine outputs, both torque and BHP.
This is absolutely necessary as some engines will be better or less suited to a racing environment and will produce better or worse figures than other manufactures. This was again agreed by all the teams prior to the season. What we need to have is all engines at the first race of the year outputting very similar or near identical BHP and Torque figures, this was achieved by the pre season engine tests.
Not sure what you are arguing about now.
if it is that all engines should be on the same boost pressure at the beginning of the year? well this just simply would not work, those with the best base engine would win everything.
It has to be a level playing field at the beginning and then about the driver and team improving the chassis to get the advantage. I for one do not want to be being passed on the straights or passing on the straights.
Hope this clears things up.
JP
JP, thanks for continuing to drop in here with the odd insight, even though not everything you read here is in your favour(!) There are those who value that kind of access to/input from the sportsmen they make time to watch on weekends.The formula for changing the boost after each race was agreed by all the teams at the beginning of the year. This calculation is done mathematically based on lap time averages of qualifying, and races over a rolling 2 race meeting basis. There is no human intervention.
As far as the initial boost settings prior to the season, this was calculated by engine experts who analysed each engine type/make and set the base line boost pressure to equalise the various engine outputs, both torque and BHP.
This is absolutely necessary as some engines will be better or less suited to a racing environment and will produce better or worse figures than other manufactures. This was again agreed by all the teams prior to the season. What we need to have is all engines at the first race of the year outputting very similar or near identical BHP and Torque figures, this was achieved by the pre season engine tests.
Not sure what you are arguing about now.
if it is that all engines should be on the same boost pressure at the beginning of the year? well this just simply would not work, those with the best base engine would win everything.
It has to be a level playing field at the beginning and then about the driver and team improving the chassis to get the advantage. I for one do not want to be being passed on the straights or passing on the straights.
Hope this clears things up.
JP
It would mean interviewing someone for more than 20 seconds, though.
EDLT said:
They should put this sort of stuff on the ITV4 show, it would make the comments about who has more boost far easier to understand.
It would mean interviewing someone for more than 20 seconds, though.
Faaaar too complicated for the casual viewer they are trying to attract. I wish they would have more things like that though, rather than what seem like constant interviews with the bloke from Dunlop about tyres.It would mean interviewing someone for more than 20 seconds, though.
IainW said:
EDLT said:
They should put this sort of stuff on the ITV4 show, it would make the comments about who has more boost far easier to understand.
It would mean interviewing someone for more than 20 seconds, though.
Faaaar too complicated for the casual viewer they are trying to attract. I wish they would have more things like that though, rather than what seem like constant interviews with the bloke from Dunlop about tyres.It would mean interviewing someone for more than 20 seconds, though.
IainW said:
EDLT said:
They should put this sort of stuff on the ITV4 show, it would make the comments about who has more boost far easier to understand.
It would mean interviewing someone for more than 20 seconds, though.
Faaaar too complicated for the casual viewer they are trying to attract. I wish they would have more things like that though, rather than what seem like constant interviews with the bloke from Dunlop about tyres.It would mean interviewing someone for more than 20 seconds, though.
"arrr right fella...show your gunna talk to usss about tiiii-yers then....show dees are tha rain tii-yers, lets owhup we dont need dem den...dees are da shlicks............hmmm, hmmm, well nice one fella! Louieshsss, back to you"
Edited by decadence on Friday 19th October 15:47
Edited by decadence on Friday 19th October 15:47
They're all the same. It's a bit of a myth in Motor Sport and elsewhere.
Fact is, no matter how slight the differences, no two engines are exactly the same and this is true even with those apparently identical units from one manufacturer.
Maybe I'm in a severe minority but irrespective of any pre-season equalising measures, I'd be interested to hear what the average base boost is for these engines. 1 bar, 2 bar or what? In all forms of Motor Sport, information and data of this nature really adds interest for me.
No two cars the same either particularly with ordinary production cars. On several occasions during my driving career I have had access to TWO or more identical new cars from day one. Company cars with even the colour the same. One is a real flier whilst the others just do the job. Parked alongside each other they look truly identical.
Even with finer production tolerances of today there will always be even very slight differences. Should several differences by sheer chance come together to give an optimum item, that will show up as an advantage.
Just maybe even with the presumably finer margins of a 'works' engine and across the different marques, there are still differences as rarely are two truly identical.
Thus, in the organiser's desire to equalise, the reality on track is a whole difference kettle of ball games with huge variations. Added to that, human nature being what it is, some maybe all will take advantage of that in many ways to suit them. No doubt in my mind this is the case with BTCC this season par excellence.
I have watched touring cars since before the days of Clark in the Lotus Cortina and one time attended many meetings. It did not used to be like it is today. Things obviously have moved on but not always for the better. far from it. Some of the 'strokes' and blatant abuses of the rules pulled this and previous seasons have really spoiled things for this life-long enthusiast.
If I were king, any driver, particularly that big mummy's boy, guilty of a PIT move on another competitor for whatever reason or excuse ... would be shot ...
Fact is, no matter how slight the differences, no two engines are exactly the same and this is true even with those apparently identical units from one manufacturer.
Maybe I'm in a severe minority but irrespective of any pre-season equalising measures, I'd be interested to hear what the average base boost is for these engines. 1 bar, 2 bar or what? In all forms of Motor Sport, information and data of this nature really adds interest for me.
No two cars the same either particularly with ordinary production cars. On several occasions during my driving career I have had access to TWO or more identical new cars from day one. Company cars with even the colour the same. One is a real flier whilst the others just do the job. Parked alongside each other they look truly identical.
Even with finer production tolerances of today there will always be even very slight differences. Should several differences by sheer chance come together to give an optimum item, that will show up as an advantage.
Just maybe even with the presumably finer margins of a 'works' engine and across the different marques, there are still differences as rarely are two truly identical.
Thus, in the organiser's desire to equalise, the reality on track is a whole difference kettle of ball games with huge variations. Added to that, human nature being what it is, some maybe all will take advantage of that in many ways to suit them. No doubt in my mind this is the case with BTCC this season par excellence.
I have watched touring cars since before the days of Clark in the Lotus Cortina and one time attended many meetings. It did not used to be like it is today. Things obviously have moved on but not always for the better. far from it. Some of the 'strokes' and blatant abuses of the rules pulled this and previous seasons have really spoiled things for this life-long enthusiast.
If I were king, any driver, particularly that big mummy's boy, guilty of a PIT move on another competitor for whatever reason or excuse ... would be shot ...
Problem with the rules as they are now is that if we say its based on lap times over the whole weekend, how much of that lap time is from driver input and chassis of the car and set up etc...
By giving a boost decrease it might be that the car and driver are just in the 'zone' and the boost was fine...
So actually where Jason says its a rule to make sure towards the end of the season the winner will be the best driver and chassis is actually wrong, cause that would be giving you an advantage which would then get boost penalty....
Work out boost levels from the speed traps surely would be another option....
By giving a boost decrease it might be that the car and driver are just in the 'zone' and the boost was fine...
So actually where Jason says its a rule to make sure towards the end of the season the winner will be the best driver and chassis is actually wrong, cause that would be giving you an advantage which would then get boost penalty....
Work out boost levels from the speed traps surely would be another option....
MGJohn said:
They're all the same. It's a bit of a myth in Motor Sport and elsewhere.
Fact is, no matter how slight the differences, no two engines are exactly the same and this is true even with those apparently identical units from one manufacturer.
Maybe I'm in a severe minority but irrespective of any pre-season equalising measures, I'd be interested to hear what the average base boost is for these engines. 1 bar, 2 bar or what? In all forms of Motor Sport, information and data of this nature really adds interest for me.
No two cars the same either particularly with ordinary production cars. On several occasions during my driving career I have had access to TWO or more identical new cars from day one. Company cars with even the colour the same. One is a real flier whilst the others just do the job. Parked alongside each other they look truly identical.
Even with finer production tolerances of today there will always be even very slight differences. Should several differences by sheer chance come together to give an optimum item, that will show up as an advantage.
Just maybe even with the presumably finer margins of a 'works' engine and across the different marques, there are still differences as rarely are two truly identical.
Thus, in the organiser's desire to equalise, the reality on track is a whole difference kettle of ball games with huge variations. Added to that, human nature being what it is, some maybe all will take advantage of that in many ways to suit them. No doubt in my mind this is the case with BTCC this season par excellence.
I have watched touring cars since before the days of Clark in the Lotus Cortina and one time attended many meetings. It did not used to be like it is today. Things obviously have moved on but not always for the better. far from it. Some of the 'strokes' and blatant abuses of the rules pulled this and previous seasons have really spoiled things for this life-long enthusiast.
If I were king, any driver, particularly that big mummy's boy, guilty of a PIT move on another competitor for whatever reason or excuse ... would be shot ...
I think there was a maximum boost the engine could have to pass regulations at the beginning of the year, it was less than 2bar. Could have been about 1.5.Fact is, no matter how slight the differences, no two engines are exactly the same and this is true even with those apparently identical units from one manufacturer.
Maybe I'm in a severe minority but irrespective of any pre-season equalising measures, I'd be interested to hear what the average base boost is for these engines. 1 bar, 2 bar or what? In all forms of Motor Sport, information and data of this nature really adds interest for me.
No two cars the same either particularly with ordinary production cars. On several occasions during my driving career I have had access to TWO or more identical new cars from day one. Company cars with even the colour the same. One is a real flier whilst the others just do the job. Parked alongside each other they look truly identical.
Even with finer production tolerances of today there will always be even very slight differences. Should several differences by sheer chance come together to give an optimum item, that will show up as an advantage.
Just maybe even with the presumably finer margins of a 'works' engine and across the different marques, there are still differences as rarely are two truly identical.
Thus, in the organiser's desire to equalise, the reality on track is a whole difference kettle of ball games with huge variations. Added to that, human nature being what it is, some maybe all will take advantage of that in many ways to suit them. No doubt in my mind this is the case with BTCC this season par excellence.
I have watched touring cars since before the days of Clark in the Lotus Cortina and one time attended many meetings. It did not used to be like it is today. Things obviously have moved on but not always for the better. far from it. Some of the 'strokes' and blatant abuses of the rules pulled this and previous seasons have really spoiled things for this life-long enthusiast.
If I were king, any driver, particularly that big mummy's boy, guilty of a PIT move on another competitor for whatever reason or excuse ... would be shot ...
Do you really think there is more cheating now than in the rose tinted days?
EDLT said:
I think there was a maximum boost the engine could have to pass regulations at the beginning of the year, it was less than 2bar. Could have been about 1.5.
Do you really think there is more cheating now than in the rose tinted days?
Who knows, one thing I am certain of, there is much more deliberate bad driving during the past decade or so and its getting worse. Almost unknown back then even with or without the rose tinteds.Do you really think there is more cheating now than in the rose tinted days?
Deliberate bad driving is the worst of all cheating in my books. Maybe not in your books when viewing things with your blind eye turning, through clouded, unclean rose tinteds.
...
with deepest chuckles.. 
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