RE: WRC post Loeb - what hope?
Discussion
I see Latvala has signed to VW for 2013,I think Citroen will be replaced by Peugeot in 2014 if not sooner.The 208 being based on the DS3 it will just be a repanneling exercise.
I think the future looks better with Red Bull on board.
I think what has marked out the end of the 90,s and in to the 00,s is the phenomana of the multiple champions be it Rossi,Schumacher or Loeb and I dont know if we will see the like again.
In the meantime all I can say is I will miss Loeb greatly as I am a massive fan of his and can't wait to see him in the WTCC.
I think the future looks better with Red Bull on board.
I think what has marked out the end of the 90,s and in to the 00,s is the phenomana of the multiple champions be it Rossi,Schumacher or Loeb and I dont know if we will see the like again.
In the meantime all I can say is I will miss Loeb greatly as I am a massive fan of his and can't wait to see him in the WTCC.
RX7 said:
Absolutely, nail and head, as others have said above too!
I too was far more interested in rallying when you could effectively go and buy one (in essence). Stunning as the wrc cars are these days, they loose so much appeal by not having road going alternatives. The sub culture of road variants were huge, evos, scoobies, celicas, escorts, deltas, all of these cars only have a heritage born about through rallying and more so, the success of their wrc bigger brothers, would the Delta be so popular now if it wasnt for its legendary winning status?
I also find it so curious Loebs success is being attributed to its demise, i actively know people who have stopped watching MotoGp because Rossi isnt winning of late and it seems their not on their own, so where does that differ!
Whilst the crowds of the group b days were clearly insane, i think the whole health and safety culture is also part to blame. I recently went to watch a rally event this year and could barely get close, well, not like a good few years ago, maybe that was just that particular event!
They do need some input with tv coverage though and a decent amount of manufacturers, maybe these are all pin points to its slow down!
So why dont they make road going alternatives these days, target market, costs etc?
I don't think the fact that Rossi isn't winning is putting people off Moto GP, it's the lack of action once the leader is 10+ seconds ahead. The regulations and bike development over the last few seasons has caused this. Like the WRC, I think Moto GP is a victim of poor coverage. Once Eurosport lost the live race (accompanied by the excellent commentary from Toby and Julian) and the BBC took over and pushed it to BBC 2 or 3 and even the red button on occasions, my interest quickly dwindled. I used to watch the WRC religiously until ITV took over, then the coverage on Dave rekindled my interest, then they lost the rights and I haven't watched it since. For any sport to be a commercial success it needs to be entertaining and readily accessible.I too was far more interested in rallying when you could effectively go and buy one (in essence). Stunning as the wrc cars are these days, they loose so much appeal by not having road going alternatives. The sub culture of road variants were huge, evos, scoobies, celicas, escorts, deltas, all of these cars only have a heritage born about through rallying and more so, the success of their wrc bigger brothers, would the Delta be so popular now if it wasnt for its legendary winning status?
I also find it so curious Loebs success is being attributed to its demise, i actively know people who have stopped watching MotoGp because Rossi isnt winning of late and it seems their not on their own, so where does that differ!
Whilst the crowds of the group b days were clearly insane, i think the whole health and safety culture is also part to blame. I recently went to watch a rally event this year and could barely get close, well, not like a good few years ago, maybe that was just that particular event!
They do need some input with tv coverage though and a decent amount of manufacturers, maybe these are all pin points to its slow down!
So why dont they make road going alternatives these days, target market, costs etc?
Maybe if Loeb gave a chicken a lift in his car, or got some fake police to issue a speeding ticket, or wore an afro wig on the podium, we'd all be saying how great his time as WRC champion was.
If I was in power:
1. Bring back proper homologation so we get crazy cars again
2. Let Redbull do the events
3. Televise it on Dave or BBC
4. Get ex drivers to be pundits and try and find a clown (the Jordan type character)
Make it more like F1 with amazing places and great coverage. Loeb is probably as good a driver (in diff sports granted) as Vettel but is rarely known to the lay man.
Bring back Group .... nah, I won't say it!
1. Bring back proper homologation so we get crazy cars again
2. Let Redbull do the events
3. Televise it on Dave or BBC
4. Get ex drivers to be pundits and try and find a clown (the Jordan type character)
Make it more like F1 with amazing places and great coverage. Loeb is probably as good a driver (in diff sports granted) as Vettel but is rarely known to the lay man.
Bring back Group .... nah, I won't say it!
M666 EVO said:
If I was in power:
1. Bring back proper homologation so we get crazy cars again
A return to Group A style regulations would be my dream scenario as well. The current crop of cars are the fastest the sport has ever seen, yet they bare little or no resemblance to what you can buy in the showrooms. The problem is, in the current financial climate, how many manufacturers are going to fund the design and production of a turbo charged AWD road car? 1. Bring back proper homologation so we get crazy cars again
The World Rally Car regulations were bought in to make that easier for manufacturers and, if you consider the '97 to '03 period, it worked. Its just in the last decade that the car costs have continued to spiral and, although the current crop of cars are cheaper, they are still a lot of money.
M666 EVO said:
2. Let Redbull do the events
3. Televise it on Dave or BBC
I hope that part of Red Bulls plan is to bring coverage back to a wider audience. Looking at the way they have marketed sports series in the past I'm hopeful that they will put something decent together. 3. Televise it on Dave or BBC
M666 EVO said:
4. Get ex drivers to be pundits and try and find a clown (the Jordan type character)
Agreed. As much as I liked the format of the coverage on Dave, Neil Cole irritated the s
t out of me. Would much rather have had an ex-driver(s) or someone with a bit more of a clue hosting the coverage (the clown I can do without though! 
). Again, this is in the hands of Red Bull, so fingers crossed for 2013...Heres the problem I have, no doubt Loeb was a great driver, but doesnt the lack of cars/opposition water his achievements down. I mean Makinen had McRae Burns Sainz Auriol etc etc to content with in his glory years. Who has Loeb ever had to content with rival wise?? Solberg at the most. Add to that the fact that only two manufacturers were involved for the majority and there's further watering down!! Ok maybe Lancia post Group B had nothing to cope with in 87-88 but this didnt last for long.
The spoert itself has been badly mismanaged as regards the media to the point that the IRC seems more viable. People are correct too when they point out the current lack of Homoglation specials. Maybe 1998 - 2003 were the glory years....
The spoert itself has been badly mismanaged as regards the media to the point that the IRC seems more viable. People are correct too when they point out the current lack of Homoglation specials. Maybe 1998 - 2003 were the glory years....
rastapasta said:
Who has Loeb ever had to content with rival wise??
Marcus Gronholm? Mikko Hirvonen has come close a couple of times as well: Loeb only took the title by 8 points in 2011 and one point in 2008 (both times in front of Hirvonen), so he hasn't gone completely unchallenged every year. 2011 was actually a really close season, but no one got to see it thanks to the total lack of coverage...
Sebastian Ogier is the one I'm going to be watching next year.
tbtstt said:
M666 EVO said:
If I was in power:
1. Bring back proper homologation so we get crazy cars again
A return to Group A style regulations would be my dream scenario as well. The current crop of cars are the fastest the sport has ever seen, yet they bare little or no resemblance to what you can buy in the showrooms. The problem is, in the current financial climate, how many manufacturers are going to fund the design and production of a turbo charged AWD road car? 1. Bring back proper homologation so we get crazy cars again
Subaru BRZ
Toyota GT86
Hyundai Coupe
BMW 1 Series
Lotus Elise
Audi TT (we'd allow 4WD to RWD conversion)
Alfa 4C
Personally I dont think the Loeb factor killed WRC, it certainly helped though. Again Im just going to echo the sentiments of many of the other contributors and that being the bulk of the blame going on uninspiring "shopping trolley" based current crop of WRC machinery. That couple with poor tv coverage, and the same person winning for 9 years in a row. I understand that costs play a major part in it all and Ford and Mini pulling the plug due to a struggling market. The typical WRC viewer dont aspire to buy Polos or Mini countrymen or whatever theyre called, we want road versions of the fire breathing monsters we see blasting throught the special stages Quattros, Intergrales, Evo's and Wrx Sti's etc
Oz83 said:
I don't think the fact that Rossi isn't winning is putting people off Moto GP, it's the lack of action once the leader is 10+ seconds ahead. The regulations and bike development over the last few seasons has caused this. Like the WRC, I think Moto GP is a victim of poor coverage. Once Eurosport lost the live race (accompanied by the excellent commentary from Toby and Julian) and the BBC took over and pushed it to BBC 2 or 3 and even the red button on occasions, my interest quickly dwindled. I used to watch the WRC religiously until ITV took over, then the coverage on Dave rekindled my interest, then they lost the rights and I haven't watched it since. For any sport to be a commercial success it needs to be entertaining and readily accessible.
Maybe if Loeb gave a chicken a lift in his car, or got some fake police to issue a speeding ticket, or wore an afro wig on the podium, we'd all be saying how great his time as WRC champion was.
There have been discussion on this very forum where some have admitted to not watching any more because Rossi isnt winning and if anyone dare suggest as they do with Loeb, he had the best machinery and relatively no competition your almost hounded off the forum, lol, yet there are so many people that believe Loebs success was down to his lack of competition and the Citroen Maybe if Loeb gave a chicken a lift in his car, or got some fake police to issue a speeding ticket, or wore an afro wig on the podium, we'd all be saying how great his time as WRC champion was.
Its a mad world, i think they both deserve huge applause, regardless of whom they competed against and what manufacturer they were with! I really dont get the comparison to coverage of MotoGp though, is is the same as years gone by, still Ryder and Moody (shame no Mamola though), you still get coverage of Friday practice and Saturday qualifying, its only the race thats not live and what difference does that make, Sky+ it and dont watch the poor coverage and commentary on BBC!
I guess with any sport these days it all comes down to money and who wants to put up the highest bid to get coverage, regardless of that and before anyone starts throwing silly money at getting the rights, it seriously needs to up its appeal and gain back the lost crowds and i guess that is a whole different story!
ArnageWRC said:
It’s quite simple really. Manufacturers are in it to sell more cars. They also want a ‘Return on Investment’ – excellent media coverage around the world through TV, Radio, internet, papers/magazines, etc
For the last 5+ years, it hasn’t really happened – so the WRC has become a niche sport, only really followed by the ‘hard-core’ fans.
Which is were the RedBull/Sportsmens Group come in. Just look at the coverage of the RedBull Stratos with Felix Baumgartner....they know how to promote an event. Have a look at their website, or RedBullTV, RedBulletin magazine.
Which is why I thought Ford & Mini would stick around – things will be better next year! However, depending on next year, they may return and/or more Manufacturers will sign up – the new R5 car regs should help.
It’s not all doom & gloom..
In some ways it's quite a smart move by Ford & MINI(BMW)h are allowing the cars to be homologated and both M-Sport & Pro-Drive say they will be in the WRC - so for the average punter it may not look too different.For the last 5+ years, it hasn’t really happened – so the WRC has become a niche sport, only really followed by the ‘hard-core’ fans.
Which is were the RedBull/Sportsmens Group come in. Just look at the coverage of the RedBull Stratos with Felix Baumgartner....they know how to promote an event. Have a look at their website, or RedBullTV, RedBulletin magazine.
Which is why I thought Ford & Mini would stick around – things will be better next year! However, depending on next year, they may return and/or more Manufacturers will sign up – the new R5 car regs should help.
It’s not all doom & gloom..
Meanwhile Ford & BMW can sit back and see how -
VW get on dominating everything
Red Bull increase coverage and make it more of a specticle
The new 'look & feel' events pan out
Their cars get on against VW,Citroen & Hyundai, without full backing
Their car sales across Europe increase over the next two seasons.
Then after a closely fought & exciting 2014 season both will announce they are again backing their cars as manufacturer entries as M-Sport & Prodrive have done such a good job.
Let's hope so anyway.
Welshwonder said:
Why all the people moaning about coverage? I don't have ESPN but I've seen every rally on Motors TV for the past couple of years. Yes you need sky, but you don't even need the sports package!
I think a lot of people have assumed the coverage is still on pay channel ESPN, the change to Motors was obviously not well publicised and I don't think its on free view/sat which means its still missing a potential bigger audience. With regards the actual coverage I think Motors have done a pretty good job of it, its been a hell of a lot better than the Dave coverage, that's for sure.
interloper said:
With regards the actual coverage I think Motors have done a pretty good job of it, its been a hell of a lot better than the Dave coverage, that's for sure.
Couldn't disagree more with you about this - Motors TV coverage is so poor its barely watchable in my view. I thought ESPN did a great job (as did DAVE) especially with the live Power stage. In 2011 with MINI coming back it all looked so good for 2012 but then the promoter went bust, Mini pulled their backing of Prodrive, Ford shot themselves in the foot time and time again and the result is Seb Loeb dominated and its turned out to be the worst season I can remember!!And another thing, I can't understand people saying they don't like rallying because they can't relate to the cars as you can't buy them in the show room - to those people, I assume then you didn't like Group B when it was with us and you don't like F1 and Endurance racing (????) because as far as I know you couldn't walk into a showroom and buy a 205 T16 and you can't pop into your local dealer to buy an R12 or Peugeot 908!!
Scratches head, Dave was mostly celebrity waffle with about ten minutes of actual rally footage, are you thinking of something else? At least the Motors you get get three half hour programes covering each rally. Cant comment on ESPN, never got to see it!
Mind you the best rallying on TV is a toss up between the Irish and MSA rallying on Motors and the IRC on Eurosport, much more varied and enjoyable to watch than the WRC is currently.
Mind you the best rallying on TV is a toss up between the Irish and MSA rallying on Motors and the IRC on Eurosport, much more varied and enjoyable to watch than the WRC is currently.
At it's height, rallying was totally accessible. Whilst I'm sure the cars are part of this, so was the event format.. I've stood and watched international drivers , road side, changing a wheel. What other form of motorsport allowed such involvement. Road mileage allowed spectators to get close to a car as it exited a stage, with all the mud, smells of hot oil, and on occasion first hand sight of freshly inflicted damage!
And the events (especially Rally GB) were multi-venue.. Spectators around the country could visit their 'local' leg.. And they did. Be it forest, or venues like Chatsworth.
I read with interest comments about TV coverage.. Does anybody remember how dreadful BBC2's coverage was in the late 80's.. TV was not the reason for it's popularity. Every man & his dog owned a MkII Escort.. And for little more than a weeks wages they made them 'look' like their hero's cars.. And that captured many, many people's interest.
Times change. There is no point mourning the past. Road cars will never mirror rally cars again.. Insurance.. Technology etc.. But WRC has totally failed to catch the imagination of youngsters in the UK.. And that is something WRC can change.. Split Rally GB into a 2 venue event.. Make the cars more accessible.. Oh and how about bringing through a British champion..?
The idea of a 'super special' was the start of the end.. Rally cars are at their most enigmatic appearing from stage covered in hot mud, the driver and co-driver not relaxing and replacing crash helmet for Sponsors cap, but concentrating on the second part of the event.. The road section to the next stage..
The logistics of hosting such an event are immense, but I do not believe insurmountable.. In today's world, spectators will pay large amounts for good quality motorsport.. I don't know what sort of crowds the likes of Chatsworth used to pull, but look at the Festival of Speed.. I'm sure 20,000 people paying £50 per head would allow assist in overcoming those problems!
Come on Rally GB.. Hardcore rally fans have visited WRCs 'Welsh' single venue event several times.. It's time for a major re-evaluation, and we do Motorsport better than any country in the world!
And the events (especially Rally GB) were multi-venue.. Spectators around the country could visit their 'local' leg.. And they did. Be it forest, or venues like Chatsworth.
I read with interest comments about TV coverage.. Does anybody remember how dreadful BBC2's coverage was in the late 80's.. TV was not the reason for it's popularity. Every man & his dog owned a MkII Escort.. And for little more than a weeks wages they made them 'look' like their hero's cars.. And that captured many, many people's interest.
Times change. There is no point mourning the past. Road cars will never mirror rally cars again.. Insurance.. Technology etc.. But WRC has totally failed to catch the imagination of youngsters in the UK.. And that is something WRC can change.. Split Rally GB into a 2 venue event.. Make the cars more accessible.. Oh and how about bringing through a British champion..?
The idea of a 'super special' was the start of the end.. Rally cars are at their most enigmatic appearing from stage covered in hot mud, the driver and co-driver not relaxing and replacing crash helmet for Sponsors cap, but concentrating on the second part of the event.. The road section to the next stage..
The logistics of hosting such an event are immense, but I do not believe insurmountable.. In today's world, spectators will pay large amounts for good quality motorsport.. I don't know what sort of crowds the likes of Chatsworth used to pull, but look at the Festival of Speed.. I'm sure 20,000 people paying £50 per head would allow assist in overcoming those problems!
Come on Rally GB.. Hardcore rally fans have visited WRCs 'Welsh' single venue event several times.. It's time for a major re-evaluation, and we do Motorsport better than any country in the world!
SAGTAFF said:
And another thing, I can't understand people saying they don't like rallying because they can't relate to the cars as you can't buy them in the show room - to those people, I assume then you didn't like Group B when it was with us and you don't like F1 and Endurance racing (????) because as far as I know you couldn't walk into a showroom and buy a 205 T16 and you can't pop into your local dealer to buy an R12 or Peugeot 908!!
All of the Group B cars were homologated as per the rules. Here is the Peugeot 205 T16:
If you ignore the prototypes in endurance racing the GT cars have much more in common with thier road-going counterparts than current WRC cars do with theirs.
Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff