RE: WRC post Loeb - what hope?
Discussion
caine100 said:
All of the Group B cars were homologated as per the rules. Here is the Peugeot 205 T16:
If you ignore the prototypes in endurance racing the GT cars have much more in common with thier road-going counterparts than current WRC cars do with theirs.
If you ignore the prototypes in endurance racing the GT cars have much more in common with thier road-going counterparts than current WRC cars do with theirs.
Thanks for proving my point, a road going run of the mill Pug 205 did not feature a mid installed engine and I was infact ignoring the GT cars and referring to the Protos
SAGTAFF said:
Thanks for proving my point, a road going run of the mill Pug 205 did not feature a mid installed engine and I was infact ignoring the GT cars and referring to the Protos
The 205 T16 road car was mid-engined and had the same 4WD system as the race car.
Oh well, one step forward, two steps back....
I keep saying this but Ogier would have spent a good part of this season kicking Loeb's ass if he'd stayed on at Citroen,
You get the impression that despite having been involved in noticing and bringing Ogier to team, Loeb wasn't happy with how close he was getting. You may argue that Hirvonen was a real threat to him, but only on gravel and snow and we seem to have more Tarmac than I remember! May be it can be compared to the Ferrari situation?
I agree with the cars not being interesting or similar enough to the showroom models and the UK will not generate as much interest until we have a decent British driver winning regularly.
I keep saying this but Ogier would have spent a good part of this season kicking Loeb's ass if he'd stayed on at Citroen,
You get the impression that despite having been involved in noticing and bringing Ogier to team, Loeb wasn't happy with how close he was getting. You may argue that Hirvonen was a real threat to him, but only on gravel and snow and we seem to have more Tarmac than I remember! May be it can be compared to the Ferrari situation?
I agree with the cars not being interesting or similar enough to the showroom models and the UK will not generate as much interest until we have a decent British driver winning regularly.
caine100 said:
SAGTAFF said:
And another thing, I can't understand people saying they don't like rallying because they can't relate to the cars as you can't buy them in the show room - to those people, I assume then you didn't like Group B when it was with us and you don't like F1 and Endurance racing (????) because as far as I know you couldn't walk into a showroom and buy a 205 T16 and you can't pop into your local dealer to buy an R12 or Peugeot 908!!
All of the Group B cars were homologated as per the rules. Here is the Peugeot 205 T16:If you ignore the prototypes in endurance racing the GT cars have much more in common with thier road-going counterparts than current WRC cars do with theirs.
The 205 T16 only had 200 built and are priced between £75k-£125k, I don't think they were too far off this when built. The current crop of WRC cars are immense to watch and in many ways similar to group B as they are quite removed from the road cars they are based on.
Perhaps this is part of the problem. It's interesting to note that even though Ford have pulled their official support, M-Sport will be running a team in the WRC again next year, are deveoping the car further over the winter and will be launching next years car based on the facelifted Fiesta with the new front grill, so ultimately most people won't spot too much of a difference.
article said:
but you hope that in years and decades to come we can look back at this era with nostalgia and a sense of romance,
no. sorry. loeb might be the most talented man to ever sit behind the wheel of a car but there's more romance and nostalgia in a 2 minute youtube clip of group b than the last decade of wrc.SAGTAFF said:
Couldn't disagree more with you about this - Motors TV coverage is so poor its barely watchable in my view.
Agreed. The Motors TV coverage does at least contain a lot of action from the stage, but the commentary is shocking. I've lost track of the number of times the commentator has referred to the wrong driver or made blunders......I can see the argument that the Dave coverage did contain a bit too much in the way of interviews and banter (and that
Neil Cole) but, as highlight programmes go, I still thought they were good to watch.SAGTAFF said:
And another thing, I can't understand people saying they don't like rallying because they can't relate to the cars as you can't buy them in the show room - to those people, I assume then you didn't like Group B when it was with us and you don't like F1 and Endurance racing (????) because as far as I know you couldn't walk into a showroom and buy a 205 T16 and you can't pop into your local dealer to buy an R12 or Peugeot 908!!
I disagree here on two counts. Firstly - and as has been said, the Group B cars were (admittedly very expensive) showroom models - but, perhaps more importantly, the appeal of Group B wasn't the accessibility of the cars: it was popular because the cars were utterly savage. I cannot comprehend (as a spectator) how mindblowing it must have been to have been watching Escorts and the like winning titles in the early 80's then, just 5 years later, be watching quattros, 205 T16's and Delta S4's tearing up the stages. The level of progression is just phenomenal. The attraction of Group A was different to that of Group B. That (to me anyway) is when the appeal stemmed from the fact that the competition took place using showroom(ish!) cars and that manufacturers had to have a rally car that directly reflected something available in the showroom. The cars were still very fast and, although not quite on the same scale as Group B, they were still spectacular to watch. That - in my opinion - is as good as it gets for the rally fan.
RX7 said:
filski666 said:
You can't relate the current WRC machines to their road going brethren, and that was a big part of the appeal to me - partly why I drive a Celica GTFOUR 
Absolutely, nail and head, as others have said above too!I too was far more interested in rallying when you could effectively go and buy one (in essence). Stunning as the wrc cars are these days, they loose so much appeal by not having road going alternatives. The sub culture of road variants were huge, evos, scoobies, celicas, escorts, deltas, all of these cars only have a heritage born about through rallying and more so, the success of their wrc bigger brothers, would the Delta be so popular now if it wasnt for its legendary winning status?
I also find it so curious Loebs success is being attributed to its demise, i actively know people who have stopped watching MotoGp because Rossi isnt winning of late and it seems their not on their own, so where does that differ!
Whilst the crowds of the group b days were clearly insane, i think the whole health and safety culture is also part to blame. I recently went to watch a rally event this year and could barely get close, well, not like a good few years ago, maybe that was just that particular event!
They do need some input with tv coverage though and a decent amount of manufacturers, maybe these are all pin points to its slow down!
So why dont they make road going alternatives these days, target market, costs etc?
Group A is the way to make it interesting again. I know people are going to say that manufacturers won't be interested because of costs but I don't believe that. Look how quick the Focus RS sold on both occasions, Ford wouldn't build it if there wasn't money in it. Every time Subaru of Mitsubishi brought out a Rally special edition they flew out the showrooms.
Now look at the possible cars.
Subaru Imprezza
Mitsubishi Evo
Ford Focus RS (I'm sure Ford would make it 4wd if there was a possibility to rally it)
Audi S3 or TT-RS
Volkswagen Golf R
Mini (They've got 4wd in the countryman i'm sure they would make a mad JCW version)
Nissan Juke (If they're mad enough to make a GTR version for full production)
Toyota GT86 with 4wd (If the other 3 Jap manufacturers are in they won't want to be left out)
Make it normal group A rules, then every time they want to make a major update aero package etc, they have to make 500 road versions. There could be a few interesting cars out there!
I don't know any rally fan who owns a citroen or a Hyundai!!!
ArnageWRC said:
It’s quite simple really. Manufacturers are in it to sell more cars. They also want a ‘Return on Investment’ – excellent media coverage around the world through TV, Radio, internet, papers/magazines, etc
For the last 5+ years, it hasn’t really happened – so the WRC has become a niche sport, only really followed by the ‘hard-core’ fans.
Which is were the RedBull/Sportsmens Group come in. Just look at the coverage of the RedBull Stratos with Felix Baumgartner....they know how to promote an event. Have a look at their website, or RedBullTV, RedBulletin magazine.
Which is why I thought Ford & Mini would stick around – things will be better next year! However, depending on next year, they may return and/or more Manufacturers will sign up – the new R5 car regs should help.
It’s not all doom & gloom..
This, all the way.For the last 5+ years, it hasn’t really happened – so the WRC has become a niche sport, only really followed by the ‘hard-core’ fans.
Which is were the RedBull/Sportsmens Group come in. Just look at the coverage of the RedBull Stratos with Felix Baumgartner....they know how to promote an event. Have a look at their website, or RedBullTV, RedBulletin magazine.
Which is why I thought Ford & Mini would stick around – things will be better next year! However, depending on next year, they may return and/or more Manufacturers will sign up – the new R5 car regs should help.
It’s not all doom & gloom..
The 'manufacturers pulling out' doom-and-gloom isn't quite what it seems. The new Group R regulations are homologation-based, so all the manufacturers need to do is supply a car to the team provided they sell 2500 roadgoing versions of the things. This will lead to some absolutely storming hot hatches IMO, and it also means that the manufacturers won't be financially crippled by the costs of tooling up for a few cars to contest rallies - they'll leave that to the specialists.
In many ways it's like the BTCC. Only two manufacturers actually have works backing (MG and Honda), but they're just part of a huge field of UK motorsport specialist-prepared cars from all manner of manufacturers including Vauxhall, BMW, Audi, Proton, Toyota, Volkswagen, Ford, Chevrolet, and with any luck from next year, Skoda.
The issue isn't which manufacturers choose to enter, but which motorsport outlets choose to enter and what they'll modify to do it.
The Red Bull deal is great news. Look at the way they've brought some seriously niche things - aerobatics racing and motocross for example - to the attention of young extreme-sports fans. They also get plenty of coverage on Dave (which has come a long way from the ex-BBC repeats-fest it once was), so I reckon it could find a new audience and hit the ground running.
What they need to do to inject some varety, though, is to televise a cross section of the whole championship, including the younger drivers in the lesser formulas. You'd get drivers that a new audience can cheer on, and a broader range of cars too.
Rallying died for me and many others when the WRC decided that the GB rally would be sanitised and based in Wales only.
I like many fans in the 80's use to take the week off, live in my car(Manta not a lot of room)and follow the Rally through numerous different stages Chatsworth, Grizly Grizedale, Kielder, South Wales, driving from South Wales up to the North West was always a blast. I'd watch Manta 400's not too far removed from my GTE.
The BBC covered it and the variety of vehicles made it interesting, 2wd 4wd. All manufacturers seem to have some representation even if some of the cars of choice should never have been near a forest!
I like many fans in the 80's use to take the week off, live in my car(Manta not a lot of room)and follow the Rally through numerous different stages Chatsworth, Grizly Grizedale, Kielder, South Wales, driving from South Wales up to the North West was always a blast. I'd watch Manta 400's not too far removed from my GTE.
The BBC covered it and the variety of vehicles made it interesting, 2wd 4wd. All manufacturers seem to have some representation even if some of the cars of choice should never have been near a forest!
caine100 said:
Are you trolling me, son?
The 205 T16 road car was mid-engined and had the same 4WD system as the race car.
Apologies Caine100, no I'm not trolling you. Its just that - in order to solve rallyings problem - it seems people are arguing for cars that are based on showroom models that Mr joe public can go and buy but at the sametime saying Group B was the ultimate and want that to return. The two points contradict each other as - although you could buy a road going 205 T16 - you can hardly call it car that your average punter could go and buy.The 205 T16 road car was mid-engined and had the same 4WD system as the race car.
I think the current setup is correct - cars that are very loosely based on showroom models but a blindingly quick. The cars are not the problem. Stand on a stage and tell me that you are not blown away by how quickly JML or Loeb come past you in a current WRC car. The cars are not the problem and thats my point and I've just picked on your (caine100) emails to demonstrate this.
My view is that the problem is the promoters and organisers have done their very best to turn off both the 'live' spectating and the TV viewer.
The 'live' spectating has been ruined by being told where to stand, no night stages, not being able to move between stages, etc, etc. Spectating at Rally GB used to be a 24hr adventure.
With regards to the TV coverage, I think I've said enough about Motors TV. For me it hit rock bottom the other week then those two annoying commentators were bickering over whether JML was going 100% or not and then they reailsed they weren't even looking at JML!! Just shut the frigg up and lets us watch the cars in action and just tell us what we need to know!
Again - apologies to caine100.
Fingers crossed M-SPort and Prodrive can put a couple of decent drivers together and can compete with VW otherwise 2013 will end up like 2012 just read Ogier dominating instead of Loeb.
SAGTAFF
7DWM said:
I don't know any rally fan who owns a citroen or a Hyundai!!!
We own a Hyundai and I've been a RALLY fan for over 30 years, I must be ahead of the curve! There was a time when Subaru's were only bought by farmers until Subaru entered Rallying! I remember seeing the first Subaru's and Mitsubishi's rally cars that brought attention to the brands in the UK. Remember Audi made very dull cars until the Quattro, whatever happened to them?SAGTAFF said:
Apologies Caine100, no I'm not trolling you. Its just that - in order to solve rallyings problem - it seems people are arguing for cars that are based on showroom models that Mr joe public can go and buy but at the sametime saying Group B was the ultimate and want that to return. The two points contradict each other as - although you could buy a road going 205 T16 - you can hardly call it car that your average punter could go and buy.
I think the current setup is correct - cars that are very loosely based on showroom models but a blindingly quick. The cars are not the problem. Stand on a stage and tell me that you are not blown away by how quickly JML or Loeb come past you in a current WRC car. The cars are not the problem and thats my point and I've just picked on your (caine100) emails to demonstrate this.
My view is that the problem is the promoters and organisers have done their very best to turn off both the 'live' spectating and the TV viewer.
The 'live' spectating has been ruined by being told where to stand, no night stages, not being able to move between stages, etc, etc. Spectating at Rally GB used to be a 24hr adventure.
With regards to the TV coverage, I think I've said enough about Motors TV. For me it hit rock bottom the other week then those two annoying commentators were bickering over whether JML was going 100% or not and then they reailsed they weren't even looking at JML!! Just shut the frigg up and lets us watch the cars in action and just tell us what we need to know!
Again - apologies to caine100.
Fingers crossed M-SPort and Prodrive can put a couple of decent drivers together and can compete with VW otherwise 2013 will end up like 2012 just read Ogier dominating instead of Loeb.
SAGTAFF
There are lost of comments agreeing with your points, tv coverage, spectators etc all valid and discussed. I think the current setup is correct - cars that are very loosely based on showroom models but a blindingly quick. The cars are not the problem. Stand on a stage and tell me that you are not blown away by how quickly JML or Loeb come past you in a current WRC car. The cars are not the problem and thats my point and I've just picked on your (caine100) emails to demonstrate this.
My view is that the problem is the promoters and organisers have done their very best to turn off both the 'live' spectating and the TV viewer.
The 'live' spectating has been ruined by being told where to stand, no night stages, not being able to move between stages, etc, etc. Spectating at Rally GB used to be a 24hr adventure.
With regards to the TV coverage, I think I've said enough about Motors TV. For me it hit rock bottom the other week then those two annoying commentators were bickering over whether JML was going 100% or not and then they reailsed they weren't even looking at JML!! Just shut the frigg up and lets us watch the cars in action and just tell us what we need to know!
Again - apologies to caine100.
Fingers crossed M-SPort and Prodrive can put a couple of decent drivers together and can compete with VW otherwise 2013 will end up like 2012 just read Ogier dominating instead of Loeb.
SAGTAFF
I do think the car point is valid though, whilst the average mortal could not go out and buy a Ti16 or 6R4 you could if you choose to and make your 205 or metro look exactly like its wrc counterpart. Moving a few years on from those though you could pretty much walk into a showroom and come out with something that was almost the spitting image of its wrc big brother with very exciting performance to match, Audi qauttro's, Deltas, Imprezza, Evo, Celica, Escort cossies, the list goes on.
One of the last rally events i went too was awash with the the cars listed above, which was perhaps 2/3 years ago, did i see any focus's, one or two, did i see any trick c4's or xsara's, no, did i see any 206's or 307's, no, did i see any mini's, no (well probably but none worth note), skodas, corollas, seats, still no! So why is it the rally fans are still driving around in Imprezzas, Evos, Celicas etc, probably because there are no new offerings available that look, sound and in relative terms perform like a wrc car, just in my opinion of course!
Domf said:
7DWM said:
I don't know any rally fan who owns a citroen or a Hyundai!!!
We own a Hyundai and I've been a RALLY fan for over 30 years, I must be ahead of the curve! There was a time when Subaru's were only bought by farmers until Subaru entered Rallying! I remember seeing the first Subaru's and Mitsubishi's rally cars that brought attention to the brands in the UK. Remember Audi made very dull cars until the Quattro, whatever happened to them?In the same way as you say that Subaru's profile has been changed forever, imagine what it would do for for Hyundai if there was a 4wd Turbo Hyundai Veloster competing on the WRC and you could buy a road version of that car from your local dealer.
7DWM said:
Domf said:
7DWM said:
I don't know any rally fan who owns a citroen or a Hyundai!!!
We own a Hyundai and I've been a RALLY fan for over 30 years, I must be ahead of the curve! There was a time when Subaru's were only bought by farmers until Subaru entered Rallying! I remember seeing the first Subaru's and Mitsubishi's rally cars that brought attention to the brands in the UK. Remember Audi made very dull cars until the Quattro, whatever happened to them?In the same way as you say that Subaru's profile has been changed forever, imagine what it would do for for Hyundai if there was a 4wd Turbo Hyundai Veloster competing on the WRC and you could buy a road version of that car from your local dealer.
It is a shame we don't really get the whole Citroen thing in the UK,as a Citroen fan and having a pseudo rally look Xsara VTS I am amazed that so called rally fans do not even realise how good Citroen are in rallying.
I think some get blinded by the bullst and stickers of other brands without being true rally fans,thus giving the image that these non Citroen brands are owned by rally enthusiasts,I recently worked with a chap who owned a Subaru with every sticker imaginable on it yet it was the awesome 123bhp version and he did not have a clue what half the brands emblazoned on his car did or produced.
A powerful Subaru or Evo is an awesome piece of machinery but I think Peugeot and Citroen shy away from producing road based versions of say the DS3 with 4wd as they just do not fit with their product range,were as Subaru and Mitsubishi are nothing without the high performance versions.
We should also bare in mind that PSA produce two grassroots 2wd rally cars with the R3 versions of the DS3 and 208.
I think some get blinded by the bulls
t and stickers of other brands without being true rally fans,thus giving the image that these non Citroen brands are owned by rally enthusiasts,I recently worked with a chap who owned a Subaru with every sticker imaginable on it yet it was the awesome 123bhp version and he did not have a clue what half the brands emblazoned on his car did or produced.A powerful Subaru or Evo is an awesome piece of machinery but I think Peugeot and Citroen shy away from producing road based versions of say the DS3 with 4wd as they just do not fit with their product range,were as Subaru and Mitsubishi are nothing without the high performance versions.
We should also bare in mind that PSA produce two grassroots 2wd rally cars with the R3 versions of the DS3 and 208.
K.I.S.S.
Keep it simple, stupid! First off, do away with four wheel drive and divide the cars into front wheel drive (for Junior WRC) and rear wheel drive (for full WRC).
As it is, the cars bear shockingly little resemblance to anything you can buy in the showroom. There has never been a 4x4 Ford Focus offered, yet the WRC cars from the Mk 1 Focus on have all been 4WD. Ditto Peugeot's succession of hideous monsters (Big bumper 207, oddly proportioned 307cc) so really, we're not missing out.
Give the JWRC cars a 1.6 litre turbo engine. Give the WRC cars the same, with bigger turbos and intakes to allow more power. You save the need to develop a completely different engine, while creating enough of a performance gap.
Cut the costs for works teams by increasing the number of European rounds and doing what the F1 teams do by having more than one event in the same region. A look at the 2012 calendar reveals how stupid the current system is - WRC went from Sweden to Mexico, back to Portugal then back to Argentina.
Cut the costs out of the cars too. With RWD there is no need for complex 4WD gear, diffs and the like. Keep the gearboxes to a standard 5-speed sequential and increase the minimum length of the cars, so top drivers aren't swanning about in superminis.
Finally, and most importantly, come up with different televised options. It is not enough to have three hour-long wraps from each day. Have a midweek show on terrestrial television which wraps up the previous weekend's rally in an hour.
Keep it simple, stupid! First off, do away with four wheel drive and divide the cars into front wheel drive (for Junior WRC) and rear wheel drive (for full WRC).
As it is, the cars bear shockingly little resemblance to anything you can buy in the showroom. There has never been a 4x4 Ford Focus offered, yet the WRC cars from the Mk 1 Focus on have all been 4WD. Ditto Peugeot's succession of hideous monsters (Big bumper 207, oddly proportioned 307cc) so really, we're not missing out.
Give the JWRC cars a 1.6 litre turbo engine. Give the WRC cars the same, with bigger turbos and intakes to allow more power. You save the need to develop a completely different engine, while creating enough of a performance gap.
Cut the costs for works teams by increasing the number of European rounds and doing what the F1 teams do by having more than one event in the same region. A look at the 2012 calendar reveals how stupid the current system is - WRC went from Sweden to Mexico, back to Portugal then back to Argentina.
Cut the costs out of the cars too. With RWD there is no need for complex 4WD gear, diffs and the like. Keep the gearboxes to a standard 5-speed sequential and increase the minimum length of the cars, so top drivers aren't swanning about in superminis.
Finally, and most importantly, come up with different televised options. It is not enough to have three hour-long wraps from each day. Have a midweek show on terrestrial television which wraps up the previous weekend's rally in an hour.
Domf said:
Rallying died for me and many others when the WRC decided that the GB rally would be sanitised and based in Wales only.
I like many fans in the 80's use to take the week off, live in my car(Manta not a lot of room)and follow the Rally through numerous different stages Chatsworth, Grizly Grizedale, Kielder, South Wales, driving from South Wales up to the North West was always a blast. I'd watch Manta 400's not too far removed from my GTE.
The BBC covered it and the variety of vehicles made it interesting, 2wd 4wd. All manufacturers seem to have some representation even if some of the cars of choice should never have been near a forest!
Used to do the same myself in the 90's. When the rally was 5 days long it was brilliant, leave home on the Saturday, rally started Sunday, home on Thursday and about 1000 miles in between! 10 to 15 of us would set off 2 or 3 to a car in whatever mildly fast cars we could muster at the time, C.B. radio's in each, sleeping in them in the forest or if you were lucky a pub car park close to the stage.I like many fans in the 80's use to take the week off, live in my car(Manta not a lot of room)and follow the Rally through numerous different stages Chatsworth, Grizly Grizedale, Kielder, South Wales, driving from South Wales up to the North West was always a blast. I'd watch Manta 400's not too far removed from my GTE.
The BBC covered it and the variety of vehicles made it interesting, 2wd 4wd. All manufacturers seem to have some representation even if some of the cars of choice should never have been near a forest!
Happy days, just a big adventure from start to finish!
m8rky said:
It is a shame we don't really get the whole Citroen thing in the UK,as a Citroen fan and having a pseudo rally look Xsara VTS I am amazed that so called rally fans do not even realise how good Citroen are in rallying.
I think some get blinded by the bullst and stickers of other brands without being true rally fans,thus giving the image that these non Citroen brands are owned by rally enthusiasts,I recently worked with a chap who owned a Subaru with every sticker imaginable on it yet it was the awesome 123bhp version and he did not have a clue what half the brands emblazoned on his car did or produced.
Isnt that just one of the points in question, whilst not wishing to offend or cause an argument, until Loeb came along, where is Citroens rallying heritage? So the chap you recently worked with, regardless of whether he is an avid rally fan or not, probably saw one on tv and then on the road and thought, i want one that looks like that and went out and got one, sure it may have been a base model but still looked the same or similar, could he have gone out and bought a citroen that looked the same without modification, no! To enhance on the topic of Citroens rally heritage, if Citroen had produced a similar model to Loebs wrc car i.e 4x4 and turbocharged, as Mitsubishi, Subaru and Toyota (celica) how many might they have sold due to Loebs success? I think some get blinded by the bulls
t and stickers of other brands without being true rally fans,thus giving the image that these non Citroen brands are owned by rally enthusiasts,I recently worked with a chap who owned a Subaru with every sticker imaginable on it yet it was the awesome 123bhp version and he did not have a clue what half the brands emblazoned on his car did or produced.Look at what Subaru did with the special edition of the Subaru dedicated to Richard Burns, Mitsubishi with the Evo and Tommi Makininen (spelling), Toyota with the Sainz GT4 , these still fetch premiums over standard models, i am sure Citroen know what they are doing but definitely think they missed a trick on this one!
Prior to the WRC Citroen had massive success with the Rally Raid/Paris Dakar ZX plus a long history going back to the Traction Avant,2CV,DS,SM and CX Rally Raid,.
The Xsara was a massively succesful 2WD kit car.So I think Citroens motorsport and Rallying heritage stacks up pretty well,having been in the current 4WD era continuosly since the turn of the milleniunm I think they along with Ford must be the longest serving competitors in WRC.
As if by magic,just found this posted recently on You Tube,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEXxFekiSFM
The Xsara was a massively succesful 2WD kit car.So I think Citroens motorsport and Rallying heritage stacks up pretty well,having been in the current 4WD era continuosly since the turn of the milleniunm I think they along with Ford must be the longest serving competitors in WRC.
As if by magic,just found this posted recently on You Tube,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEXxFekiSFM
Edited by m8rky on Thursday 18th October 17:03
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