RE: WRC post Loeb - what hope?

[hornet]

m8rky said:

It is a shame we don't really get the whole Citroen thing in the UK

Given the mess PSA are in at the moment, does anyone get them? Loeb's success clearly hasn't done for Citroen what the likes of McRae, Burns and Makkinen did for Subaru and Mitsubishi. That's not a dig at Loeb, I just struggle to see why they've stuck at it?

I wonder if the Red Bull move will see an attempt to take the whole X-Games approach properly global? They'd had the X-Fighters at Battersea, and I suspect an X-Gamesesque "Red Bull Rally London" would be a huge draw. Have a series of sprint/super specials in and around assorted landmarks (Parks, Canary Wharf, Battersea, Olympic park etc) and market the crap out of it. The purists would hate it, and I'd have a degree of sympathy with them, but I just don't see the WRC recovering in the UK. Times and demographics have changed.

[RX7]

m8rky said:

Prior to the WRC Citroen had massive success with the Rally Raid/Paris Dakar ZX plus a long history going back to the Traction Avant,2CV,DS,SM and CX Rally Raid,.
The Xsara was a massively succesful 2WD kit car.So I think Citroens motorsport and Rallying heritage stacks up pretty well,having been in the current 4WD era continuosly since the turn of the milleniunm I think they along with Ford must be the longest serving competitors in WRC.

As if by magic,just found this posted recently on You Tube,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEXxFekiSFM

Edited by m8rky on Thursday 18th October 17:03

But we are not talking about rally raid or paris dakar though, we are talking about wrc cars and its coverage.

[m8rky]

RX7 said:

But we are not talking about rally raid or paris dakar though, we are talking about wrc cars and its coverage.

Indeed not but it does highlight Citroens commitment to motorsport.I think my point about there continued involvement in the modern 4WD era since the beginning of the millenium is a very valid point.Also a rallying heritage dating back to the Traction Avant.
How many years were Subaru,Toyota and Mitsubishi involved for?

[RX7]

m8rky said:

Indeed not but it does highlight Citroens commitment to motorsport.I think my point about there continued involvement in the modern 4WD era since the beginning of the millenium is a very valid point.Also a rallying heritage dating back to the Traction Avant.
How many years were Subaru,Toyota and Mitsubishi involved for?

The topic is WRC post Loeb, not rally raid, paris dakar etc, so their heritage or commitment to motorsport in that area has no bearing at all on what is being discussed. Pre Loeb, world rally car heritage, is 0!

Why question Subaru, Toyota and Mitsubishi? This is the point being made, ask almost anyone name a winning rally car and Xsara, C4 etc probably wouldnt even enter their head, it would be Evo, Imprezza, Delta, Escort and on and on and on, most likely because its known to the average man who has seen one on the street and thus recognizes it from the tv! Personally i think it would be very different if there were road going alternatives and seems i am not alone. I know that is merely an assumption, but how else can you contribute such enthusiasm for Mitsubishi, Subaru, Ford, Lancias etc when in essence they havent been anywhere near as successful as Citroen in the last 3 decades or so?

Edited by RX7 on Thursday 18th October 18:23

[m8rky]

RX7 said:

where is Citroens rallying heritage?

You did ask the question and Rally Raid/Paris-Dakar along with their previous exploits in general rallying does form part of that heritage.

Did you mean success or heritage?,I admit they have not been very succesful pre Loeb (although Bugalski drove the Xsara kit car with some success,but their heritage is exemplary.

Edited by m8rky on Thursday 18th October 18:48

[Al W]

hornet said:

m8rky said:

It is a shame we don't really get the whole Citroen thing in the UK

Given the mess PSA are in at the moment, does anyone get them? Loeb's success clearly hasn't done for Citroen what the likes of McRae, Burns and Makkinen did for Subaru and Mitsubishi. That's not a dig at Loeb, I just struggle to see why they've stuck at it?

My impression is that they haven't really tried to build on the rally success here. While Subaru and Mitsubishi offered rally fans road versions of the rally cars, Citroen are more focused on flogging family cars with no connection to the sporting success.
I remember an old neighbour proudly showing me his new Xsara and trying to tell me it was just like the one McRae drove....

[simonpeter]

Loeb and Citroens success will clearly have had an adverse effect on the WRC. The FIA were always changing the rules when Schumacher dominated F1. A predictable sport is usually one that will switch people off. I believe the biggest problem in all top line professional motorsport are cost related. Manufacturers will only stay if they can see the win on Sunday sell on Monday results they are looking for. Ford have made this kind of decision before hoping that privateers can keep the brand identity alive. Sadly it is only the manufacturers with the resources to keep the WRC competitive at a world class level.

[FNG]

simonpeter said:

Manufacturers will only stay if they can see the win on Sunday sell on Monday results they are looking for. Ford have made this kind of decision before hoping that privateers can keep the brand identity alive. Sadly it is only the manufacturers with the resources to keep the WRC competitive at a world class level.

This is the problem.

The public make a correlation between cars they see rallying and those they can go out and buy (or see passing them on the high street).

The need for homologation of xxxx number of cars (as GpA) was removed for cost reasons, so manufacturers don't need to make a roadgoing version.

Also, the manufacturer gets hammered for the CO2 emissions of their WHOLE FLEET so the last thing they want or need is to worsen that by building a 4WD turbo homologation special. (It might only be 2500 cars in a global fleet of 800,000 but every gram costs them a fortune to save.)

Therefore the FIA allows essentially a prototype silhouette series, the public can't relate to it, the manufacturer doesn't sell on Monday whether his cars win on Sunday or not.

Ergo a tiny number of manufacturers in the championship, few talented drivers, pay drivers running second tier cars, no celebrity names are created, no real competition, no tight championship, rallies won by margins of several minutes, no public interest.

It was during the Group A era IINM that timing was measured to the tenth of a second instead of to whole seconds. It was necessary because the cars and drivers were closely matched, several world class entries per rally, and rallies were won and lost on rounding up or down to the nearest second.

That was exciting, interesting, engaging to the public (and they went out and bought Impreza Turbos by the bucketload).

Get the relationship between cars and public back on track, incentivise manufacturers to make the homologation specials, and the media coverage will improve.

The key to it is the cars. They need to get the public engaged with them again and I don't think we've ever seen a better model of this than the Group A rules.

[Twincam16]

simonpeter said:

Loeb and Citroens success will clearly have had an adverse effect on the WRC. The FIA were always changing the rules when Schumacher dominated F1. A predictable sport is usually one that will switch people off. I believe the biggest problem in all top line professional motorsport are cost related. Manufacturers will only stay if they can see the win on Sunday sell on Monday results they are looking for. Ford have made this kind of decision before hoping that privateers can keep the brand identity alive. Sadly it is only the manufacturers with the resources to keep the WRC competitive at a world class level.

I'm not sure about that. I actually reckon it'll be cost-limitation that might prove successful.

I feel that rallying has reached the point that the BTCC was at at the end of the BTC-T era that had dominated throughout the '00s. The cars were so far removed from their roadgoing counterparts, and so expensive, that only one team with substantial manufacturer cash behind it (Vauxhall) was capable of winning. And win it did. Again. And again. And again. And a-sodding-gain. It got boring.

The main reasons for this were the modifications allowed, the rules on which were pretty lax as they seemed to want to spur manufacturers on to creating a kind-of British DTM. It didn't work.

I see rallying as suffering from the same problems. Citroen has become to rallying what Vauxhall was to the BTCC - a vast manufacturer-backed operation casually torpedoing all rivals with a completely unassailable car that no-one really has the cash to beat.

But look at the BTCC now. The costs are down, the crowds are back and the racing is almost as good as it was during the Super 2000 era of the '90s. It's down to the wire at the end of the season and four drivers - including one in an independent, non-manufacturer-backed Pirtek Honda has a chance of nabbing the championship. Could you say the same of rallying, ever, during the reign of Loeb and Citroen? Yes, he was a great driver, but he always had the best car and by the time he started winning at the beginning of a season the rest of the year would be a foregone conclusion. I've no idea how the drivers felt but from a spectator's point of view there was no real 'competition' to watch.

What I think rallying needs is an equivalent to an NGTC format. Aim it at motorsport companies like MSport and Prodrive rather than works manufacturers like Citroen. Everyone has to start with a production car supplied by a manufacturer, and the modifications allowed must all be within set parameters. No 4WD systems if the base vehicle doesn't have it, no trick differential or eleventy-speed gearboxes, just a fixed set of modifications that can be made to a car that mere mortals can buy in showrooms.

I hope this is how Group R pans out, with RGT as a kind of spectacular halo-class with hints of the old Group 4 (or even Targa Florio-style road-racing) about it. If we can attract some of the world's best drivers into RGTs (I hope Lotus would let Raikkonen drive an Exige RGT on the Tour de Corse or such like, that'd be amazing), maybe that would lift the whole thing too.

[GravelBen]

Twincam16 said:

What I think rallying needs is an equivalent to an NGTC format. Aim it at motorsport companies like MSport and Prodrive rather than works manufacturers like Citroen. Everyone has to start with a production car supplied by a manufacturer, and the modifications allowed must all be within set parameters. No 4WD systems if the base vehicle doesn't have it, no trick differential or eleventy-speed gearboxes, just a fixed set of modifications that can be made to a car that mere mortals can buy in showrooms.

You mean Group N? PWRC uses that already.

[TankRS]

i dont think WRC without Loeb will be to different to how its been for the last 2-3 years tbh.
except instead of the drivers fighting for 2nd they will now be fighting for the win!


well this is providing Ford can still mount a challenge without Factory backing and its lead driver to VW. i dont expect Jari to be fighting with Ogier straight away as hes had 12 months more in the car than JML.



o/t - i cant believe how many people have praised, or at least enjoyed the Dave WRC coverage, while i admit the coverage they gave was better than none!
I hated it tbh. Neil cole was just a tool, the hour long programe was 45mins of guff, with 15 mins of action!
i hated the guff before about what type of rally it was, and Cole telling us it was this type of gravel/tarmac/mud etc. after the first few shows i worked out that if i recorded it i could skip the whole show and just start it up from about 40mins into the programme.

like i said it was better than nothing, but if they take this step with the new coverage, for me it will be a step backwards from the already average at best stuff we have now.

[Emeye]

The year the coverage has been great on motors TV, especially considering the state the TV rights were in.

The commentators are some of the most passionate, knowledgable commentators I have ever experienced! Much better than what we used to be subjected to on Motors TV and Eurosports - some dude just translating from French.

[b0rk]

Twincam16 said:

What I think rallying needs is an equivalent to an NGTC format. Aim it at motorsport companies like MSport and Prodrive rather than works manufacturers like Citroen. Everyone has to start with a production car supplied by a manufacturer, and the modifications allowed must all be within set parameters. No 4WD systems if the base vehicle doesn't have it, no trick differential or eleventy-speed gearboxes, just a fixed set of modifications that can be made to a car that mere mortals can buy in showrooms.

The advantage BTCC has with NGTC is that as a national championship specification the amount of money available to even a manufacturer backed team will be limited by the relatively small market. The rules make it just expensive enough through production part restrictions to stop a proper money no object factory effort from emerging with a production homologation special.

WRC as world championship and thus with a potentially much larger "market" wouldn't be so lucky if a particular manufacturer say Citroen/VW/Hyundai decided to win come what may you'd quickly find production homologation specials reappearing and thus freezing out privater builders. Look back to the 80's and the group A and B homologation specials as a case in point.

[Twincam16]

But would that be such a bad thing? It's the homologation specials that so many people miss. Besides, all manufacturers are subject to the same economic pressures so it's unlikely you'd get loss-leaders prevailing for long unless they're cheaply-engineered enough for people to keep buying in significant numbers.

[TVR500Morgan]

vtr_driver said:

What killed the WRC for me was the move of the coverage from Dave to ESPN. I watched it religiously when it was on Dave

This ! I already pay for sky but I'm not paying even more just to watch the WRC, I loved watching it on Dave and I was gutted when I heard it was leaving for ESPN.

[Pistonwot]

ITS NOT EXCITING,
its not even a sport anymore. Its a marketing scheme for substandard scrap cars.
Group B Stratos or a Fiesta/Mini?
Hmmmm,,,,, engineerings finest offerings OR puny cars developed to suit "Modern Lifestyle Choices"
One glance of that pretentious Mini thing has me in fits of laughter every time, its a scrapper. I am glad it has gone POS!
How can anyone enjoy a sport this rediculous and hollow?

Loeb deserves all the credit he gets as do Citroen.
The fact that other teams like Ford and Prodrive are posing no threat is nothing to do with either Loeb or Citroen.

[anonymous-user]

Pistonwot said:

ITS NOT EXCITING,
its not even a sport anymore. Its a marketing scheme for substandard scrap cars.

Boring right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8xBbvaz7j4

[interloper]

Pistonwot said:

ITS NOT EXCITING,
its not even a sport anymore. Its a marketing scheme for substandard scrap cars.
Group B Stratos or a Fiesta/Mini?
Hmmmm,,,,, engineerings finest offerings OR puny cars developed to suit "Modern Lifestyle Choices"
One glance of that pretentious Mini thing has me in fits of laughter every time, its a scrapper. I am glad it has gone POS!
How can anyone enjoy a sport this rediculous and hollow?

Loeb deserves all the credit he gets as do Citroen.
The fact that other teams like Ford and Prodrive are posing no threat is nothing to do with either Loeb or Citroen.

I'm fairly critical of what the WRC has become but this post smacks of massive ignorance...

First off the Stratos was a Group 4 car, it didnt compete in Group B and unlike the MK2 Escort didnt get re homologated for Group B.

Secondly you may not like MINIs and Fiestas but the engineers have poured all their worth into them to make them competetive. May I point out that WRC cars still cover the ground faster than the Group B kit we all worship.

Thirdly its still a sport, they dont draw straws or toss a dice to decide the out come!

[VidalBaboon]

Frimley111R said:

I can't help thinking that there's not much point in rally cars based on road ones if you can't buy something that looks very similar in a showroom like the WRX/EVO/Cosworth. Leob winning in a DS3 will have little effect on people buying a 1.6d version.

This.

[TankRS]

interloper said:

Pistonwot said:

ITS NOT EXCITING,
its not even a sport anymore. Its a marketing scheme for substandard scrap cars.
Group B Stratos or a Fiesta/Mini?
Hmmmm,,,,, engineerings finest offerings OR puny cars developed to suit "Modern Lifestyle Choices"
One glance of that pretentious Mini thing has me in fits of laughter every time, its a scrapper. I am glad it has gone POS!
How can anyone enjoy a sport this rediculous and hollow?

Loeb deserves all the credit he gets as do Citroen.
The fact that other teams like Ford and Prodrive are posing no threat is nothing to do with either Loeb or Citroen.

I'm fairly critical of what the WRC has become but this post smacks of massive ignorance...

completely agree, unfortunately i find most posts wrc related on this forum are from people with the old 'it was better in the Group B days, and while i have to agree the action was spectacular then, look how it all ended! a return to that certainly is not wanted by anyone considering themselves a rallyist!

as much as I'd love to barge into the 100,000 F1 threads on here and shout about how crap a sport it is now, i wont. simply because i don't watch it anymore so have no real basis for my claims, and for the simple fact that i see no point in smack talking about something i have no interest in anymore.
the one particular line that gets me each time is that the cars share nothing with the road going versions. some truth in that there is. when could you last go out and buy a car their fave F1 driver races every Sunday?

VidalBaboon said:

Frimley111R said:

I can't help thinking that there's not much point in rally cars based on road ones if you can't buy something that looks very similar in a showroom like the WRX/EVO/Cosworth. Leob winning in a DS3 will have little effect on people buying a 1.6d version.

This.

while i agree having the ability to have gone out and bought a car that looked very much like the one battering round a WRC stage was awesome back in the day, and its a damn shame that you cant do something similar now.

i just think its a sign of the times, we are still financially FUBAR'd aren't we?, that this is the reason car makers wont make limited runs of their current crop of WRC cars.
Besides Citroen putting white wheels and stickers on a C4 & C2 VTS' and calling it the 'by Loeb edition' (I've only ever seen one of these on the road so cant imagine they sold in buckets over here) we've had nothing really special from either manufacturer.