RE: Tuscans at Thruxton

[griff2be]

Quite!

James, I think you have good intentions here, but your comments are wide of the mark and thus bordering on the unhelpful. You are not aware of what the teams and drivers want – so please would you give us a break from ‘x, y or z should happen’.

Cheers

[jamesc]

Hi V8TVR,

As a sponsor in the Tuscan Challenge, you can appreciate the costs involved. The costs have gone up and number of cars have decreased. As stated before the Tuscans are not the only series in trouble. There are a few main facts that need to be addressed:

1. The number of cars on the grid. Another 22 cars will need to found.

2. TVR are withdrawing their support. There are alternative part suppliers.

3. The cars do look old and the SRO have criticised the standard of preperation.

4. Richard Hay provides the TV coverage in return for his drive. With no factory cars and his sponsor Street no longer selling TVR's, the cost of TV coverage will have to be found. It is around £3000 per meeting, which is the cost of running another car!

5. The engines are now eight years old.

Conclusion: A car that represents the current range of cars is needed! You only have to look at the history of the TVR Tuscan Challenge to see that the caliber of drivers has gone down and it is only a shadow of its former self.

[PetrolTed]

James, let up for a while will you?

[V8 Archie]

jamesc said:

You only have to look at the history of the TVR Tuscan Challenge to see that the caliber of drivers has gone down and it is only a shadow of its former self.

I may be shouted down here, but I think that comment is rather disrespectful to some of the talented drivers that are running in the series this year. I can think of at least four who have either driven or had offers to drive in British GT during the course of this season alone.

I know that some reasonably stellar individuals have come through the Tuscan series in the past - but I think that most of them at the time were not the established names that they now are.

To be honest I find that the standard of driving is very good usually involving close fights all through the field and rarely involving the sort of demolition derby tactics that currently blight so many series - not least the high profile ones such as BTCC and Formula Woman.

[jamesc]

There are some really good drivers in the Challenge such as Lee Caroline, David Mason and Philip Keen. However we have lost Chris Stockton, Nathan Freke and Peter Osborne. I would even stick my neck out and say Lee is the best Tuscan racer ever! Bert Taylor came up with some really good ideas in his thread "What would it take!"

I have a programme from 1996 of a club meeting at Castle Combe.

Full grid of 34 TVR Tuscans

Full grid of 34 Caterhams

Full grid of 30 Eurocar V6

Full grid of FF1600

Full grid of Castle Combe salons

plus Castle Combe GT

This was JCW's first race and the entry fee was around £100. Castle Combe also gets 25000 plus gates. I went to the GT/F3 at Silverstone (bumped into No 6) and there was bearly 4000 people. It is not the Tuscans at fault it is the motor racing climate. Marketing budgets are still there, but you have to give the customer what he wants.

I hope this is helpful.

[griff2be]

James - you don't currently drive, run a team or represent a team or driver.

You were not party to the discussions held between TVR and the teams/drivers last weekend.

You are not aware of the situation regarding SRO or TV coverage for 2005

You are also not aware of the support that TVR are prepared to offer next year.

So please stop giving your opinion in a manner which pupports to be fact. Nothing you have said is remotely positive in helping maintain the Challenge and increase the grids, which is what the drivers and John Reid are working towards.

If you won't let it lie then I am sure Ted will oblige and shut this thread.

[Tuscan 29]

griff2be said:

James - you don't currently drive, run a team or represent a team or driver. If you won't let it lie then I am sure Ted will oblige and shut this thread.

27

Right a bit, steady, left, left a bit more,steady,.... Andy, the bolt please, FIRE!!!!!

[ehasler]

I don't see anything in James' last two posts on this thread that isn't true though.

The reality is, Tuscans now is nothing like it was 5+ years ago, from the numbers of cars on the grid, overall finish of the cars, depth of talent in the field etc...

As James pointed out though, it's not the fault of anyone in the series. I agree with him that it's partly down to the current lack of sponsorship money floating around compared to previous years, and I also think it's down to the number of race series around now that is diluting driving talent and money.

Like James pointed out in his last post, there are plenty of other series that had full grids in the past, and now struggle to get 12 cars (e.g., Caterhams). I don't think it's co-incidence that these are also the more expensive series, and maybe the majority of drivers who aren't lucky enough to have generous sponsors or ambitions to race in British GT are looking at series that offer better value for money, hence why Ginettas being popular, and Caterham 400s are not.

Just look at the way that Britcar has taken off - they offer lots of track time for reasonable money, so it makes more sense to spend your money here. In fact, from watching both series, I would say that the quality of drivers and car preparation in Britcar is greater than in Tuscans at the moment, so I'm sure there is something to learn here.

[ratpit]

There was no way the new owner of TVR was going to put in the huge amount of money PW sanctioned for the Tuscan Challenge. It was PW's train set, but hey, you all got to play too even if it did cost a lot and PW sometimes wanted to run it his way or "P*** off".

I do hope you guys get something sorted but I think when you see how much PW put in to having that train set for you everyone to play on it will be a big shock.

Good luck for the future and thank you for the amazing entertainment you all provided.

[Big_M]

I was at Thruxton at the weekend. In addition to some excellent entertainment from the Tuscan drivers, we were also provided with some excellent racing from the VWs and the Ginettas - both with very full grids.

I am not sure how much Ginetta racing costs but a lot of it appeared to be owner/drivers without much sponsorship. The VWs on the other hand were a mix of owner/drivers and some sponsorships by dealers. I know some of the TVR dealers do put some money into the Tuscan racing but I am sure there is room for more input from them.

[jamesc]

Topcats who won the TVR Tuscan Challenge with Michael Kane now run their Tuscans in Britcar. For the same entry fee you get 3 hours of racing instead of 40. It now attracts top drivers such as Anthony Ried, David Leslie, Andy Rouse and Calum Lockie; so the likes of Lee Caroline would be well at home. However a 4.2 AJP8 engine is required and a few other mods are needed. Next year Britcar plan to run 2 24 hour races and James tucker will welcome Tuscans. Best thing to do is look at the website at www.eerc.co.uk

regards

James

[jamesc]

Big_M said:

I was at Thruxton at the weekend. In addition to some excellent entertainment from the Tuscan drivers, we were also provided with some excellent racing from the VWs and the Ginettas - both with very full grids. I am not sure how much Ginetta racing costs but a lot of it appeared to be owner/drivers without much sponsorship. The VWs on the other hand were a mix of owner/drivers and some sponsorships by dealers. I know some of the TVR dealers do put some money into the Tuscan racing but I am sure there is room for more input from them.

Both the Ginettas and the VWs went through a bad patch and took two different approaches to build up the grids.

Ginetta introduced new versions of the G27 and then replaced with the G20. The G20 was more of a race car and was cheaper than the G27 it replaced.

The Ventos were first merged with the Rover 220 turbos; numbers of Ventos still fell because the Rovers and Vauxhall Vectras were faster. When VW started to allow all VW models then the series took off. Rob Carvell has won the series again in a Mk2 Sirocco with the same engine he had in the Golf. There was a good article in Autosport about the different cars in the series.

MG did a similar thing with the MGF cup cars and now a thriving series runs for all MGs of the modern era.

[V8 Archie]

Big_M said:

I am not sure how much Ginetta racing costs but a lot of it appeared to be owner/drivers without much sponsorship.

I believe (from a chat with the chap who crashed out in the second race) that it's about £500 per race entry fee + membership of the series club. Obviously some more costs such as fuel/spares/damage fund, but the cars can be put together for under £10k, they are basically Ford bits and a set of tyres can last a season . The engines cost about a grand.

Daydreamer will no doubt tell me I've got the wrong end of the stick now, but that's how I remember it.

I came away with the impression that I'd need £25k for the first season and £10-15k each season after that to run (mid-pack at best).

[daydreamer]

V8 Archie said:

I believe (from a chat with the chap who crashed out in the second race) that it's about £500 per race entry fee + membership of the series club. Obviously some more costs such as fuel/spares/damage fund, but the cars can be put together for under £10k, they are basically Ford bits and a set of tyres can last a season . The engines cost about a grand. Daydreamer will no doubt tell me I've got the wrong end of the stick now, but that's how I remember it. I came away with the impression that I'd need £25k for the first season and £10-15k each season after that to run (mid-pack at best).

Not the wrong end of the stick at all . I think that the only thing I wouldn't agree with there is that the £10k - £15k budget would only get you mid pack. I'd put Stewart Linns season this year at around £8k - £12k (and that is including everything, testing, hotels, fuel, transporter costs - the lot) and he has won a stack of races and is leading the championship.

Also, the cars are not sold in kit form, so you shouldn't really be building one from Ford bits. Having said that we've totally rebuilt ours (using Ginetta bits) over the past 8 weeks, and it appeared to hold together OK. The cars brand new are only somehting like £11,600 plus VAT, so not a nightmare. (although on removing my rear springs I noticed Celeb Rear typexed on them so not all of the bits are guaranteed brand new ).

I budgeted around £45k for three seasons including buying the car, transporter etc and writing them down to nothing (which is terribly pessimistic as even the worst examples are still fetching around £8k - £9k second hand). That is to include absolutely everything - including my recent excursion into the tyre wall at Combe .

A bit of know how is all that is required to go well (which may be worth paying a team for - not sure on costs there - but Richmond Racing and Reflex Racing would I'm sure be reasonable. For the full arrive and drive Tolbar racing will attend to your every need, but you'll pay for it). We started running around 20 out of 30, until spending a bit of time on setup. That immediately pushed us well up the field. Unfortunately, we've gone backwards at the last round for various reasons, but part of the fun is learning about how to make them go well!

I'm quite lucky at the moment as I get a bit of help from Joolz (Joospeed) who will not be happy if the car doesn't come out of the blocks next year as a top three contender. Even coupled with the driver (who is not yet top three ) we shold still have a good year.

Sorry - short answer:-

£12k to buy the car
£2k to buy some form of trailer/transporter (I use a white van )
£10k a year to run it:-

£500 x 7 for entry fees
£150 for championship registration
£150 per weekend on fuel (race and transporter)
£125 per weekend on hotels (SWMBO won't camp)

all of which comes to around £5.5k, leaving a very generous £4.5k to pay for a bit of testing, spares and consumables and damage repair - which is very generous. A new chassis and two new front corners, various bits, plus bonnet cost me around £2,200).

[/essay]

Rich

[hui]

v8tvr said:

Personally i think this thread should be closed and then moved to a drivers only forum as it really only concerns them at this moment, As "THEY" are the ones who are going to be running the new series, and all this unhelpfull speculation only deters the parties who are really interested from helping. So i think we should really try to stay Stum on this until they can think about what to do, in good time i'm sure they will make an anouncment as to the future. >> Edited by v8tvr on Thursday 2nd September 11:51

I fully agree. There's some pretty ill informed comment about. The only way forward is for those actually involved to move forward from last Monday's meeting at Thruxton. People probably don't realise the very limited window of opportunity in which to save the Tuscan series. There's no doubt that Tuscans are highly popular with the crowds. Nearly all who have driven the Tuscan rate it very highly.
Talk of Tuscans descending to a "clubby" championship is not even slightly helpful. Most of the current drivers and teams are not interested in going backwards, so therefore we must improve and move forward the current format. All involved in trying to revive the series will appreciate positive comment but negativity and talk of radical change will only help to bury the series once and for all.

[ratpit]

An informed plan ??

1) Obtain a firm commitment and speculative budget from all present, recent past, and potential new teams.

2) Decide at what level you wish to participate. F3/GT slot, other series support, club type programme.

3) Make a proposed schedule of events.

4) Attempt to attract sponsorship with the above in place and if feasible some TV coverage too. Mr.Hay may fancy a drive somewhere else now.

5) Present all of the above to TVR with a request for confirmation on their level of parts support, engine leases, ecu supply, brakes deals etc.

6) Promotion, promotion, promotion.

But soon.

And no more B...s..t about new cars, engines blahdy blah

>> Edited by ratpit on Sunday 5th September 14:45

>> Edited by ratpit on Sunday 5th September 14:48

[centuryrace]

I read with interest the above thread, various comments, some probably not helpful, some could be, some ridiculous. However the most dangerous ones are those which are shouting down any suggestions which they do not agree with, or suggesting that it should be the current drivers who have the say, or the current teams, or whoever those who would like to be in control do not want to be involved. This, I thought was an open forum, however perhaps I should review that thought. The Tuscan racing for the short period we took part was something we enjoyed very much and we are sad that we are not currently able to do so, most of the people were friendly and helpful, however reading this thread make me wonder where it is going. If an exclusive club is forming then the Tuscans will die, all views need to be taken into account, and the majority views of all intereted parties going towards forming the basis of the new - better!! - Tuscan series. I have seen this type of 'they and we' mentality destroy championships / series in karting to the detriment of the sport, it is nobody's 'train set' any more. And before anybody says we are not involved so this is not valid, Andy and hopefully some others by now know better.

>> Edited by centuryrace on Sunday 5th September 18:58

[griff2be]

Hi Clive - the unhelpful suggestions are those which start from the premise that the patient is already dead. This completely undermines any efforts to preserve and improve a Tuscan series for next year.

The overwhelming feeling from those at Thruxton was a wish to keep the Tuscans in a similar format to today - on the GT package and with TV, but to use the change in TVR's status as a means of reducing costs and thus opening up the series to more drivers/teams.

Far from being an exclusive club, the series needs new people.

Having said this, management by committee never achieves anything. Once the ideas are all in the pot, we need someone (or a small number of people) to move things forward quickly - or there will be no Tuscan Challenge in 2005.

[ratpit]

Well said, I presume thats you Nathan, cos the spelling is pants,

This is a public forum, so if you don't like people commenting publicly perhaps you should be e-mailing each other?

While there are some ideas regarding new cars/engines that are simply unrealistic, some interesting comments are being made too. There is also some tosh but we can ignore that.

My posted plan is an merely an idea to work on, or disregard as you see fit, I reckon it is realistic but you guys need to get something started and iron out the problems of sponsorship, fees, costs etc., etc. it is actually nothing to do with me, but it would be nice if the Challenge survived somehow.

Perhaps if something was actually happening and things were starting to move, there would be less speculation? No doubt there are moves being made quietly here and there but I think there has to be a plan drawn up by Oulton which is supported by all interested parties.

Century racing showed the true spirit in their brief excursion into Tuscan land, working bloody hard on the car and racing pretty damned well too, on a tight budget and doing it all themselves more or less. I think everyone was helpful and I know the TVR boys gave lots of advice and assistance. Thats the thing that made the TVR Challenge special for those involved. Don't let it die.

[PetrolTed]

Heard some good things from people today. Sounds like there's some promising moves afoot.

Here's hoping