Should the Tuscans join the TVRCC challenge?
Discussion
I suggested this a couple of months back and everyone at the time said speeds would
be to far apart.
I still think it would be a good idea with either a LM style class set up or races
staged on a handicap basis.
A multi model TVR series would attract a lot of attention and support from owners IMHO.
be to far apart.
I still think it would be a good idea with either a LM style class set up or races
staged on a handicap basis.
A multi model TVR series would attract a lot of attention and support from owners IMHO.
It would be nice to spectate, however I feel there would be too great a speed differential which would make it possitively dangerous IMHO. However if the tuscans were restricted in power or went back to RV8 lumps, whilst reverting to road tyres it could work. However (again 
) that would kill the thrill for the Tuscans IMHO. Difficult.
Harry
) that would kill the thrill for the Tuscans IMHO. Difficult. Harry
It would be nice to spectate, however I feel there would be too great a speed differential which would make it possitively dangerous IMHO. However if the tuscans were restricted in power or went back to RV8 lumps, whilst reverting to road tyres it could work. However (again ) that would kill the thrill for the Tuscans IMHO. Difficult.
Harry
) that would kill the thrill for the Tuscans IMHO. Difficult. Harry
there was a tuscan out with us at rockingham, it didn't do the expected disappear into the distance that I expected, in fact it was only about a car length ahead at the finish .. so a tuscan racer (even on formula R tyres) is only as good as the best griffs out there in the TVRCC Challenge .. bring them on I say
I guess it is going to depend on the car spec, and on the driver. When I shared a test day with the Tasmin racers a few years ago (before they opened up the technical regs) the faster roadgoing TVRs were quicker than any of the Tasmins. Those TVRCC racers are getting quicker all the time, but a well driven race Tuscan is in a different league. Even driven by a novice it laps roadgoing TVRs like they are standing still. When you've got enough grip to use it, the difference between 250-300 BHP/ton and 450 BHP/ton is quite dramatic.
James - the majority of the VW's use the 1.8 turbo engine and are evenly matched.
They are also expensive, run on slicks, are on the GT package and have TV coverage.
In what way is this a comparison to the TVRCC Challenge, other than is has different models of cars?
If I am bluntly honest, I really don't think the vast majority of the current Tuscan racers have any interest in running in the TVRCC Challenge. That is not in any way disrespectful of what the TVRCC guys do, or the quality of their racing.
It is simply that we are used to running on a high profile package, with TV, on full slicks in a single class. The only two similarities between the Tuscan Challenge and the TVRCC is the cars were made by TVR, and both grids are too small.
That is not to say that Tuscans will not change hands and end up in the TVRCC series - just don't expect to see Lee Caroline turning up in the paddock...
They are also expensive, run on slicks, are on the GT package and have TV coverage.
In what way is this a comparison to the TVRCC Challenge, other than is has different models of cars?
If I am bluntly honest, I really don't think the vast majority of the current Tuscan racers have any interest in running in the TVRCC Challenge. That is not in any way disrespectful of what the TVRCC guys do, or the quality of their racing.
It is simply that we are used to running on a high profile package, with TV, on full slicks in a single class. The only two similarities between the Tuscan Challenge and the TVRCC is the cars were made by TVR, and both grids are too small.
That is not to say that Tuscans will not change hands and end up in the TVRCC series - just don't expect to see Lee Caroline turning up in the paddock...
Andy - You are wrong about the VW Cup. Budgets do vary from car to car. They also use a variety engines from 1.3i to the VR6. The series started out made out of one make series cars; mainly Ventos and Beetles. Last year the series was won by a 1.8i Golf Gti Mk1. I raced in Roadsports against a variety of machinery and great fun it was too. What I am suggesting is a series which caters for all TVRs and will make great TV.
griff2be said:
James - the majority of the VW's use the 1.8 turbo engine and are evenly matched.
They are also expensive, run on slicks, are on the GT package and have TV coverage.
In what way is this a comparison to the TVRCC Challenge, other than is has different models of cars?
If I am bluntly honest, I really don't think the vast majority of the current Tuscan racers have any interest in running in the TVRCC Challenge. That is not in any way disrespectful of what the TVRCC guys do, or the quality of their racing.
It is simply that we are used to running on a high profile package, with TV, on full slicks in a single class. The only two similarities between the Tuscan Challenge and the TVRCC is the cars were made by TVR, and both grids are too small.
That is not to say that Tuscans will not change hands and end up in the TVRCC series - just don't expect to see Lee Caroline turning up in the paddock...
The TVRCC Challenge Cup promises to be a fantastic series next year. With the rule changes for 2004 allowing any road going TVR to compete, this season can be viewed as transient one. Our numbers have been stable but as you say on the small side (13 cars at the Rock)however there are lots of cars in build for next season including 2 x Cerbies, Tuscan (Speed 6!) and other models which will expand our grids next season significantly. A few guys are moving on from the Tasmins and entering newer cars in the series so there will be a few competitive race cars on the market for those that want to race a TVR but don't have megabuks to play with.
Sure we're not a 'high profile' series like the Tuscans were but I think the series philosophy of close racing in similar powered cars which don't cost the earth to buy and run appeals to many TVR enthusiasts who want to get out there and race.
Unless things change very suddenly the TVRCC Challenge Cup will be the main focus for TVR motorsports enthusiasts next year, with or without the Tuscan racers.
As for Lee Caroline turning up in the paddock,well I think your statement says it all really. Having said that I do recall seeing a guy called Steve Guglielmi in the TVRCC paddock at the rock this weekend.
Is the TVR Tuscan Challenge on a high profile package?......... Could have fooled me. I live and breath in the world of motorsport and sports cars in particular and I only know the series is still going because there is a forum section on here! My point is that it strikes me the only reason for doing the Tuscan Challenge is to say to people that you raced in a once great championship in the hope they don't ask when you did it. It costs allot more to do and for what? Granted there is something nice about racing on slicks in a car with serious grunt but when it costs so much and we are only racing a few cars who are we trying to kid, the girlfriend, the mates, who exactly? Anyway the sort of people for whom a boat gets floated by the above would probably not be able to cope with a Moore Racing barbeque so perhaps it's no loss! which is nice really because that means there should be quite a few cheap Tuscans floating around at the end of the season for those with a strong constitution.
With regard to Tuscans running in the Challenge I can't see any reason why not. It should be open for any TVR. Having now done a Challenge race and therefore some distance on the "tyres" there is no way anbody but a half decent driver will win in a Tuscan because the tyres negate so much of what makes the Tuscan Challenge cars quick. Besides I have no doubt there is still allot to come from some of the existing cars in the series.
Rant over
With regard to Tuscans running in the Challenge I can't see any reason why not. It should be open for any TVR. Having now done a Challenge race and therefore some distance on the "tyres" there is no way anbody but a half decent driver will win in a Tuscan because the tyres negate so much of what makes the Tuscan Challenge cars quick. Besides I have no doubt there is still allot to come from some of the existing cars in the series.
Rant over
Racing Tuscans in the TVRCC will give owners the choice of running a Rover V8 or the AJP8. Also running on road tyres should be interesting. I have to agree with Simon's comments. Lets face it, the Tuscans are 15 years old! I have seen a few Tasmin races and have been most impressed with Steve Lewis for getting it off the ground. I cannot see the SRO letting the Tuscans carry on as they have this year or the R400 Caterhams. A new car was needed and the Sagaris replacement has been canned. However as stated previous on this thread new cars can join the TVRCC series. As in the VW cup old can race against new and provide great racing.
Having watched a race Tuscan this weekend performing at the Rock, I'd say it was fairly closely matched to the race spec Griffs, however, I must make it clear that it was a RV8 rather than an AJP V8, and possibly the AJPV8 would present a much larger speed differential.
Now lets be honest, the race Tuscans are relatively "old-hat" technology compared to other single-marque series. I can see the current Tuscan racers moving into whatever TVR deem as being the next evolution of the Tuscan challenge (T350 or alike), this can only be a good thing since there will be a raft of ex Tuscan Challenge race cars awaiting the TVRCC Cup, this will obviously give more choice to potential TVRCC Cup racers (hmm, hope Mrs' PB isn't reading this...,hint hint..).
I'd also argue that the regs need a bit of a shake up in the TVRCC cup to ensure the series can survive and continue to diversify.
Just my 2p as an active spectator for this seasons TVRCC Cup.
Steve
Now lets be honest, the race Tuscans are relatively "old-hat" technology compared to other single-marque series. I can see the current Tuscan racers moving into whatever TVR deem as being the next evolution of the Tuscan challenge (T350 or alike), this can only be a good thing since there will be a raft of ex Tuscan Challenge race cars awaiting the TVRCC Cup, this will obviously give more choice to potential TVRCC Cup racers (hmm, hope Mrs' PB isn't reading this...,hint hint..).
I'd also argue that the regs need a bit of a shake up in the TVRCC cup to ensure the series can survive and continue to diversify.
Just my 2p as an active spectator for this seasons TVRCC Cup.
Steve
fatsteve said:
I'd also argue that the regs need a bit of a shake up in the TVRCC cup to ensure the series can survive and continue to diversify.
Steve
Could you expand on that... The regs are fairly simple
1)Any TVR
2)Power to weight limits
3)Control Tyres
4)weight penalty for bigger brakes.
5)suspension mounts and engine position must be in original location.
thats about it really...
I admit the class structure may need expanding depending on what cars we see next season.
As to the tuscan i expect we will see more tuscans in the series ( there are already at least 2 being prepped [rover]) and i think they will be very competitive.
I have split loyalties i love the tuscan challenge and tried to raise funds to run this year, but would admit it is getting on a bit and needs manufacturer support to survive..
I's also like to see a huge mix of TVRs in the TVRCC challenge, as long as we can make it safe, interesting and competitive for everyone.
It will be an intersting year for all in TVR circles..
G
Graham said:
I'd also argue that the regs need a bit of a shake up in the TVRCC cup to ensure the series can survive and continue to diversify.
Steve
Could you expand on that... The regs are fairly simple
1)Any TVR
2)Power to weight limits
3)Control Tyres
4)weight penalty for bigger brakes.
5)suspension mounts and engine position must be in original location.
thats about it really...
I admit the class structure may need expanding depending on what cars we see next season.
As to the tuscan i expect we will see more tuscans in the series ( there are already at least 2 being prepped [rover]) and i think they will be very competitive.
I have split loyalties i love the tuscan challenge and tried to raise funds to run this year, but would admit it is getting on a bit and needs manufacturer support to survive..
I's also like to see a huge mix of TVRs in the TVRCC challenge, as long as we can make it safe, interesting and competitive for everyone.
It will be an intersting year for all in TVR circles..
G
Sounds really exciting!
Simon Mason said:
Is the TVR Tuscan Challenge on a high profile package?......... Could have fooled me. I live and breath in the world of motorsport and sports cars in particular and I only know the series is still going because there is a forum section on here! My point is that it strikes me the only reason for doing the Tuscan Challenge is to say to people that you raced in a once great championship in the hope they don't ask when you did it. It costs allot more to do and for what? Granted there is something nice about racing on slicks in a car with serious grunt but when it costs so much and we are only racing a few cars who are we trying to kid, the girlfriend, the mates, who exactly? Anyway the sort of people for whom a boat gets floated by the above would probably not be able to cope with a Moore Racing barbeque so perhaps it's no loss! which is nice really because that means there should be quite a few cheap Tuscans floating around at the end of the season for those with a strong constitution.
With regard to Tuscans running in the Challenge I can't see any reason why not. It should be open for any TVR. Having now done a Challenge race and therefore some distance on the "tyres" there is no way anbody but a half decent driver will win in a Tuscan because the tyres negate so much of what makes the Tuscan Challenge cars quick. Besides I have no doubt there is still allot to come from some of the existing cars in the series.
Rant over
Simon - what prompted that uncalled for outburst?
I race in the Tuscan Challenge because it is precisely that - a challenge. A challenge to drive the cars, a challenge to raise the money. A challenge to get the car rebuilt after an off for the next race. Particularly as a novice with no prior race experience. It is also the most amazing car to race.
Can you honestly tell me that any racer would not jump at a drive in the Tuscan Challenge given a chance and the funding?
What is all this macho bullsh1t about BBQs and tyres? Particularly ironic after I spent Sunday afternoon sliding around Thruxton on slicks on a wet track and then put on a BBQ for all the TVR supporters.
This isn't about whether the Tuscan Challenge is 'better' than the TVRCC Challenge - why make it out that it is?
The two are totally different. One presents an opportunity to race relatively cost effectively in a fun environmnent - although from the one TVRCC meeting I attended, everyone takes their racing very seriously.
The other is far more costly, undeniably quicker - and if you prove yourself can lead to greater things in sportscar racing. You will know better than I do the long list of Tuscan drivers who have gone on to GT - including the current 'inferior' crop - Caroline, Stockton, Mason, Hay, Stanton. According to your little outburst though, they are clearly only trying to impress the girlfriend/mates etc....
There seems to be an assumption from some - most notably James Crofts, that the natural progression for Tuscan Challenge drivers will be to join the TVRCC Challenge next year. Well don't shoot me down for telling the truth - the overwhelming majority have a strong desire to maintain the Tuscan Challenge in its current format, whilst bringing the costs down through series sponsorship so that grids average 20 cars next year.
Whether that can happen remains to be seen.
If not then no doubt some cars will be sold and appear in the TVRCC series. Others will go to Britcar. Some will become track day toys. One or two may even appear on the road.
The TVRCC Challenge is a potentially great series - I hope that it attracts more cars next year and goes from strength to strength.
Its a shame that you don't seem to be equally generous with your wishes for fellow racers doing the best they can.
Graham said:
I'd also argue that the regs need a bit of a shake up in the TVRCC cup to ensure the series can survive and continue to diversify.
Steve
Could you expand on that... The regs are fairly simple
1)Any TVR
2)Power to weight limits
3)Control Tyres
4)weight penalty for bigger brakes.
5)suspension mounts and engine position must be in original location.
thats about it really...
I admit the class structure may need expanding depending on what cars we see next season.
As to the tuscan i expect we will see more tuscans in the series ( there are already at least 2 being prepped [rover]) and i think they will be very competitive.
I have split loyalties i love the tuscan challenge and tried to raise funds to run this year, but would admit it is getting on a bit and needs manufacturer support to survive..
I's also like to see a huge mix of TVRs in the TVRCC challenge, as long as we can make it safe, interesting and competitive for everyone.
It will be an intersting year for all in TVR circles..
G
The voice of reason
Graham - would you be tempted if the entry fee/tyre budget/engine lease for a 10 round season in the Tuscans could be reduced to £13k +VAT? On the GT package, with TV coverage to help raise sponsorship? Oh, and that's 4 new slicks a weekend for that money. If you opted for 2, then the cost reduces to < £10k.
It might just happen.
If not I might have to come down with you guys, get p1ssed the night before (no change there then), slap some shite tyres on and join in. But only if Mr Mason takes his comments back
griff2be said:
Graham - would you be tempted if the entry fee/tyre budget/engine lease for a 10 round season in the Tuscans could be reduced to £13k +VAT? On the GT package, with TV coverage to help raise sponsorship? Oh, and that's 4 new slicks a weekend for that money. If you opted for 2, then the cost reduces to < £10k.
It might just happen.
you have to ask
griff2be said:I think you should do that anyway.. how about oulton this year
If not I might have to come down with you guys, get p1ssed the night before (no change there then), slap some shite tyres on and join in.
We'll probably be running dunlops next year so not that shite ..
Any news on a Birkett Engine ?
>> Edited by Graham on Thursday 2nd September 00:27
Graham said:
fatsteve said:
I'd also argue that the regs need a bit of a shake up in the TVRCC cup to ensure the series can survive and continue to diversify.
Steve
Could you expand on that... The regs are fairly simple
1)Any TVR
2)Power to weight limits
3)Control Tyres
4)weight penalty for bigger brakes.
5)suspension mounts and engine position must be in original location.
thats about it really...
I admit the class structure may need expanding depending on what cars we see next season.
As to the tuscan i expect we will see more tuscans in the series ( there are already at least 2 being prepped [rover]) and i think they will be very competitive.
I have split loyalties i love the tuscan challenge and tried to raise funds to run this year, but would admit it is getting on a bit and needs manufacturer support to survive..
I's also like to see a huge mix of TVRs in the TVRCC challenge, as long as we can make it safe, interesting and competitive for everyone.
It will be an intersting year for all in TVR circles..
G
Of course; I mean in the sense that A,B and Q classes may not be enough if AJPV8 powered Tuscans could enter. Under the current classification a Griff 500 would clearly be in the same class as an AJP powered Tuscan racer (hence, both cars > 285 BHP). Do you think the various DL unit calc and ballast would make this fair? given the fairly substantial difference in BHP.
I guess it's a hard decision where to draw the line between interesting racing (read close) and an "anything goes" policy.
Comments made about speed differentials are fair, but thing to add is that this makes it far more enjoyable to watch, you end up with a 2 or 3 races within a race so there's always some close action.
Cheers
Steve
>> Edited by fatsteve on Thursday 2nd September 01:26
Now thats what I call an outburst. I am not a tecy person so can't do the funny faces and edit cuts from your comments but in "reposte" Griff2b.
1. ("A challenge to get.....etc ") The same is true of the TVR CC Challenge so please do tell me why Tuscans are worth more, particularly to a first year racer (I think thats what you said). Because I don't see it unless a few thousand spectators is value for money?
2. ("Jumping at the chance") Fair enough if someone is happy to fork out the money to cover the racing for you then yes of course anyone would jump. But and I draw you to your last comment a challenge to get the funding! Fair enough if that floats your boat but money will always detract from performance.
3. ("the BBQ......") Can't see any "ego maccho BS" in that comment just a gentle micky take on the Moore Racing catering facilities (perhaps you have to see what I mean to understand that one). Maybe you should relax a bit a more ;-)
4. ("better than") I did'nt you did indirectly.
5. ("can lead to greater things..............") LOL who you trying to kid. I have been in motor racing all my life, some of my best mates are paid drivers in FAI, the British GT series and LMES and EVERY SINGLE one of them paid for their drive in the top level before they started ......on occassion, to get paid or free drives. They all came from Single Seater categories appart from one who raced Caterhams (with lots of money)
What most people in the sport with big dreams forget is that its not the car you drive that makes you an attractive driver to big series sponsors/teams, its the drivers you race against and beat. Forgive me but since nobody currently at the front in the Tuscan series has raced anything other than Tuscans competitively there is no bench mark for how high the standard is. I'm sure the boys are good in Tuscan type cars but technology has moved on and nobody has recently moved from Tuscans to anything new to prove the standard.
Like it or not thats a fact.
1. ("A challenge to get.....etc ") The same is true of the TVR CC Challenge so please do tell me why Tuscans are worth more, particularly to a first year racer (I think thats what you said). Because I don't see it unless a few thousand spectators is value for money?
2. ("Jumping at the chance") Fair enough if someone is happy to fork out the money to cover the racing for you then yes of course anyone would jump. But and I draw you to your last comment a challenge to get the funding! Fair enough if that floats your boat but money will always detract from performance.
3. ("the BBQ......") Can't see any "ego maccho BS" in that comment just a gentle micky take on the Moore Racing catering facilities (perhaps you have to see what I mean to understand that one). Maybe you should relax a bit a more ;-)
4. ("better than") I did'nt you did indirectly.
5. ("can lead to greater things..............") LOL who you trying to kid. I have been in motor racing all my life, some of my best mates are paid drivers in FAI, the British GT series and LMES and EVERY SINGLE one of them paid for their drive in the top level before they started ......on occassion, to get paid or free drives. They all came from Single Seater categories appart from one who raced Caterhams (with lots of money)
What most people in the sport with big dreams forget is that its not the car you drive that makes you an attractive driver to big series sponsors/teams, its the drivers you race against and beat. Forgive me but since nobody currently at the front in the Tuscan series has raced anything other than Tuscans competitively there is no bench mark for how high the standard is. I'm sure the boys are good in Tuscan type cars but technology has moved on and nobody has recently moved from Tuscans to anything new to prove the standard.
Like it or not thats a fact.
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