Should the Tuscans join the TVRCC challenge?
Discussion
Simon Mason said:
Forgive me but since nobody currently at the front in the Tuscan series has raced anything other than Tuscans competitively there is no bench mark for how high the standard is.
Like it or not thats a fact.
27 Not quite right old chap,
I think you'll find that Caroline, Hay, Mason and many others have raced in quite a few other series. Hay is a past British GT and Le mans driver,
Caroline has done British GT, Ascar, V8 pickups,to name just a few 
and Mason has driven in everything he could get his hands on including British GT just recently.
I can't claim to be at their level, mainly due to having a late start in Motorsport, driver wise, and now my age is a little against me
, Oh, yes, and the fact that I'm a crap driver
, however, I'll take anyone on in a Tuscan, yourself included 
I've run a Tuscan team of between 1 and 4 cars for 7 years up to the end of 2003 and during that time drivers such as JCW,(free drive) Bobby V Roe, Jay Shepherd (part paid) and a few others have driven for me, any of the above could stand shoulder to shoulder with the best of them, and all will tell you that Tuscans where a very important part of their racing lives. JCW has made the best of his chances having spent 3 seasons as Listers main driver(paid), and BVR hasn't done badly !!!
My point is this, the series is it's own benchmark for those of us that know it well, the list of highly rated drivers that have been in Tuscans is endless, And I'll tell you this my friend, the likes of Caroline and Mason, Keen etc are extreamly talented young men that currently follow their dreams and have yet to reach the point when the old adage " Those that drive do, those that don't, teach" might apply.
That is not meant to be a remark directed at yourself, so please don't take it as such, but it suited the point I was trying to make regarding life's little up's and downs, expectations, etc,etc.
The standard is very high in Tuscans, so much so that even drivers like me can be very hard to get to grips with. Come and drive one, and If you still feel the same about what It may or may not take to be a Tuscan driver, having raced one ,then I'll have a lot more respect for your views, until then, well, enough said.
I think you miss the point slightly.
To draw you back to the original subject from Griff. He was saying that he thinks Tuscans might take him somewhere. I know it doesnt hold that much kudos anymore and as we both know only money takes you anywhere in this sport.
The series no longer has a benchmark, it is just a series within itself. In the days of JCW and BVR it was undoublty a top line series and any front runners earned respect. Now its got who doing it? I don't mean to disrespect the drivers in the series because I'm sure in that sort of car they are pretty darn handy, but then who cares. What else have they won in, who have they beaten, how will they do in a GT3 RS Porsche or Radical SR3 both nothing like a Tuscan to drive. That really is my point. It maybe very egotistical but sadly that is how the sport works at the higher levels.
As for driving in GT's and Le Mans so what. If any of us had X number of thousand pounds spare we could buy a drive in a GT car at Le Mans. Would that instantly make me a good driver? I don't think so, it would just mean we've driven at Le Mans in GT car. Well I've driven at Le Mans flat out at night in a DB9, am I good because if it?....more experienced perhaps but good, compared to what...Exactly!
Ignorance is bliss, so no offence taken on the "those that can't teach" comment! (wanted to do a smiley face but can't find it, through my bliss!)
To draw you back to the original subject from Griff. He was saying that he thinks Tuscans might take him somewhere. I know it doesnt hold that much kudos anymore and as we both know only money takes you anywhere in this sport.
The series no longer has a benchmark, it is just a series within itself. In the days of JCW and BVR it was undoublty a top line series and any front runners earned respect. Now its got who doing it? I don't mean to disrespect the drivers in the series because I'm sure in that sort of car they are pretty darn handy, but then who cares. What else have they won in, who have they beaten, how will they do in a GT3 RS Porsche or Radical SR3 both nothing like a Tuscan to drive. That really is my point. It maybe very egotistical but sadly that is how the sport works at the higher levels.
As for driving in GT's and Le Mans so what. If any of us had X number of thousand pounds spare we could buy a drive in a GT car at Le Mans. Would that instantly make me a good driver? I don't think so, it would just mean we've driven at Le Mans in GT car. Well I've driven at Le Mans flat out at night in a DB9, am I good because if it?....more experienced perhaps but good, compared to what...Exactly!
Ignorance is bliss, so no offence taken on the "those that can't teach" comment! (wanted to do a smiley face but can't find it, through my bliss!)
Simon, I think it is you missing the point slightly.
The original subject was ‘Should the Tuscans join the TVRCC Challenge’. My interjection was that the current drivers don’t want to, although there is no reason why the cars should not.
Your response suggested that the only reason any of us run in the Tuscan’s now is to try and impress others - there was something else about not being able to cope with a Moore Racing BBQ and freeing up cheap cars for those of a strong constitution. I may have got the wrong end of the stick, but the way I read this you seemed to be suggesting that my fellow Tuscan competitors and I have huge egos, lack social skills and have weak constitutions. TVRCC racers meanwhile, are humble, hardworking folk who enjoy a few beers and occupy the moral high ground.
That’s maybe not how it was meant, but that is how it came across to me.
I am very fortunate that I have been able to raise enough (well not enough actually) sponsorship to race in the Tuscans this year. If I can keep my sponsors happy, get some reasonable results on track and continue to improve, I may have a shot at holding onto my existing sponsors, picking up some others and perhaps get enough funding for a GT drive in a couple of years time.
That doesn’t make me the best driver in the world – far from it. I don’t kid myself that if I was driving in the Challenge as it was a few years ago I would be achieving anything like the same results as I am now. Just getting out in the Tuscans represented a huge personal achievement to me.
Anyway, thanks for your encouraging words. No doubt my sponsors will be filled with enthusiasm when they have read your post.
The original subject was ‘Should the Tuscans join the TVRCC Challenge’. My interjection was that the current drivers don’t want to, although there is no reason why the cars should not.
Your response suggested that the only reason any of us run in the Tuscan’s now is to try and impress others - there was something else about not being able to cope with a Moore Racing BBQ and freeing up cheap cars for those of a strong constitution. I may have got the wrong end of the stick, but the way I read this you seemed to be suggesting that my fellow Tuscan competitors and I have huge egos, lack social skills and have weak constitutions. TVRCC racers meanwhile, are humble, hardworking folk who enjoy a few beers and occupy the moral high ground.
That’s maybe not how it was meant, but that is how it came across to me.
I am very fortunate that I have been able to raise enough (well not enough actually) sponsorship to race in the Tuscans this year. If I can keep my sponsors happy, get some reasonable results on track and continue to improve, I may have a shot at holding onto my existing sponsors, picking up some others and perhaps get enough funding for a GT drive in a couple of years time.
That doesn’t make me the best driver in the world – far from it. I don’t kid myself that if I was driving in the Challenge as it was a few years ago I would be achieving anything like the same results as I am now. Just getting out in the Tuscans represented a huge personal achievement to me.
Anyway, thanks for your encouraging words. No doubt my sponsors will be filled with enthusiasm when they have read your post.
Simon, that post reads oddly to me.
The first half appears to say that a GT drive is unlikely to be offered to a Tuscan driver (with or without cash to pay for it) - something that is patently not true as a few of them have driven GTs this season.
The second half reads like a rubbishing of GTs and hints that they are not a target to aim for.
Obviously money talks in all motor racing (there are a few F1 drivers that wouldn't be there if they didn't have a sponsorship package to bring with them), but your picture seems to portray the sport as a purely financial business. I find it hard to believe that many top teams in the high profile series (GT, BTCC, etc.) would take on a driver purely on the size of their wad. They are looking to get results which require good and experienced drivers. They are much less likely to look at drivers from the TVRCC series because of its lower profile (and, lets be honest, status).
Don't get me wrong. I support the TVRCC series too, but it's not somewhere you'd choose to drive if your next target is the top UK series (or better).
The first half appears to say that a GT drive is unlikely to be offered to a Tuscan driver (with or without cash to pay for it) - something that is patently not true as a few of them have driven GTs this season.
The second half reads like a rubbishing of GTs and hints that they are not a target to aim for.
Obviously money talks in all motor racing (there are a few F1 drivers that wouldn't be there if they didn't have a sponsorship package to bring with them), but your picture seems to portray the sport as a purely financial business. I find it hard to believe that many top teams in the high profile series (GT, BTCC, etc.) would take on a driver purely on the size of their wad. They are looking to get results which require good and experienced drivers. They are much less likely to look at drivers from the TVRCC series because of its lower profile (and, lets be honest, status).
Don't get me wrong. I support the TVRCC series too, but it's not somewhere you'd choose to drive if your next target is the top UK series (or better).
Simon Mason said:
I think you miss the point slightly.
I know it doesnt hold that much kudos anymore and as we both know only money takes you anywhere in this sport.
The series no longer has a benchmark, it is just a series within itself.
Ignorance is bliss, so no offence taken on the "those that can't drive,teach" comment! (wanted to do a smiley face but can't find it,
27 Hi Simon, added the smiley for you
left hand side of your post reply screen, Smiles legend, just click. You seem to have several people that don't agree with your point of view, so surfice to say I don't either. The only point I would make is that judging from your first comment, money and not talent is the only way to progress into top level motorsport,I get the impression, rightly or wrongly ,that this has some personal conitations. I've heard this view expressed many times before, but never by those that have made, or semi made it, quite a few of which got there dispite having little or no funds of their own. I must therefore draw the conclusion that it is an arguement proffered by those that lack one or more of the attributes needed to become a successfull racing driver. I agree that it's not enough just to be talented, one needs the benefit of a well rounded personality, the ability to sell one's self, charm, good looks help, intelligence, and a level of self confidence way above most ordinary folk, JCW springs to mind as having ticked all these boxes, just by way of an example.
On your second comment, why not try it before you knock it, you'll find a benchmark, I promise.
Glad to hear that you have taken no offence, as none was intended, I'm aware that some of my comments can be taken as a touch cutting from time to time
>> Edited by HAWTHORNS LTD on Friday 3rd September 16:07
Guy's I'm bored of repeating myself.
I will leave you with this fact. Many drivers you would expect to be getting free drives ........ actually pay for them (an equal number like to make out they are not paying, but infact are). A surprising number infact. The same is even true in the BTCC. Did you know that only 6 drivers are paid the rest are paying! FACT.
So, Griff2b I wish you all the best in your aspirations to move on but don't kid yourself that anything other money or just maybe on the off chance getting pally with the right guy at the right time is going to get you anywhere in the sport at anytime in your hobby. There are numeroius quick ex Tuscan racers floating around without drives getting bitter about the sport. Be realistic as I've mentioned and you'll stay on the ground.
Now maybe we can get back to the purpose of this thread.
I will leave you with this fact. Many drivers you would expect to be getting free drives ........ actually pay for them (an equal number like to make out they are not paying, but infact are). A surprising number infact. The same is even true in the BTCC. Did you know that only 6 drivers are paid the rest are paying! FACT.
So, Griff2b I wish you all the best in your aspirations to move on but don't kid yourself that anything other money or just maybe on the off chance getting pally with the right guy at the right time is going to get you anywhere in the sport at anytime in your hobby. There are numeroius quick ex Tuscan racers floating around without drives getting bitter about the sport. Be realistic as I've mentioned and you'll stay on the ground.
Now maybe we can get back to the purpose of this thread.
HAWTHORNS LTD said:
Hi Simon, added the smiley for you
You seem to have several people that don't agree with your point of view, so surfice to say I don't either. The only point I would make is that judging from your first comment, money and not talent is the only way to progress into top level motorsport,I get the impression, rightly or wrongly ,that this has some personal conitations. I've heard this view expressed many times before, but never by those that have made, or semi made it, quite a few of which got there dispite having little or no funds of their own. I must therefore draw the conclusion that it is an arguement proffered by those that lack one or more of the attributes needed to become a successfull racing driver. I agree that it's not enough just to be talented, one needs the benefit of a well rounded personality, the ability to sell one's self, charm, good looks help, intelligence, and a level of self confidence way above most ordinary folk, JCW springs to mind as having ticked all these boxes, just by way of an example.
>> Edited by HAWTHORNS LTD on Friday 3rd September 16:07
Right I hope I got this editing stuff right, thought I might as well practice.
Actually I would agree whole hartedly with your above comment about money, charisma and talent etc. But sadly many people seem to come into the sport thinking that if they do well they will move on when we both know it doesnt work that way. Any driver at the front in any series has to have a modicum of talent but above all they have to have finance or large helpings of luck and finance (which can be generated to some degree). I would also agree totaly on JCW but lets not forget that finance is a sizeable issue there to, if somewhat indirectly.
One thing I must disagree with is the comment on "but never by those that have made, or semi made it, quite a few of which got there dispite having little or no funds of their own" Nobody goes racing at national level without lots of money from family of friends and I don't actually know one driver that doesn't complain about how drives are bought, and that includes a current Ferrari GT driver, a Le mans Prototype and ex GT driver. So I suspect in that area you have been.......sheltered!
Niceto see I'm not the only person around who speaks their mind, although I do get the impression some of my comments have been acted on in haste rather than honest thought...... trying for a smiley.
Simon - read my post properly. I say nothing about a paid drive - because I won't get one.
I have had to raise a lot of money to do the Tuscans, my sponsors enjoy the Tuscans, and without the Tuscans I would never have had a shot at getting enough sponsorship to pay for a GT drive. In all likliehood I still won't - but I'm a lot closer to it than I would have been if I'd spent this season in the TVRCC series.
Clear?
I've given my thoughts on whether the Tuscans should join the TVRCC series.
I have had to raise a lot of money to do the Tuscans, my sponsors enjoy the Tuscans, and without the Tuscans I would never have had a shot at getting enough sponsorship to pay for a GT drive. In all likliehood I still won't - but I'm a lot closer to it than I would have been if I'd spent this season in the TVRCC series.
Clear?
I've given my thoughts on whether the Tuscans should join the TVRCC series.
Simon Mason said:
Think all this reading has sent me off on a tangent . Sorry Griff2be
. I get carried away with trying to stop people finding out the hard way how the sport works.
I wish you all the best with what reamians of the season.
27 Good man, now your problem is going to be posting a reply without using all these little smiley faces
etc,..........fun though!!! Simon Mason said:
Think all this reading has sent me off on a tangent
I wish you all the best with what reamians of the season.
Believe me, I already have a large enough hole in my bank balance to know exactly how the sport works!
Good work with the smilies by the way
jellison said:
engine position must be in original location.
Does this mean it has to have a TVR engine then?
Current class A&B yes as they are designed for cars as built by TVR. The invitation class has more flexibility and runs for its own award.
In this years invitation class there is atleast 1 special with a mix of tvr chassis and body with a chevy motor!!!!!
G
jellison said:
engine position must be in original location.
Does this mean it has to have a TVR engine then?
It's a bit greyer than that .. must be a block used in that type of TVR .. whether road or race car .. so a cosworth turbo S could be in legitamately as there was a race turbo S (of sorts), you could argue the validity of the 2 litre cosworth wedges as the wedge 2 litre was the 200 block not the 205 injection/cosworth block, but then we're running the 2.9 cosworth 24valve engine this year along with a few others, and that has additional internal strengthening over the 2.8 on which it is based ..
the main point is that you obey the *spirit* of the regulations .. the differences in the relative blocks are not enough to gain an outright competitive advantage so it's all ok in the end
The important regs are the ones that keep it all close like the DL units etc which largely even out any engine based advantages. On that basis a detuned AJP8 Tuscan would be no more competitive in real terms than a RV8 version with the same HP characteristics.
One point to make on the Tuscan challenge tho .. I think I agre with much of what Simon Mason says (aren't you racing MX5 this year Simon? ) but there's another aspect to the series which makes it particularly appealling to TVR owners .. it's the fast-track way to a blood and thunder TVR race. For TVR owners it will always have a place in their heart as a spectacular TVR series. That in itself is enough to ensure interest in this community, but I agree with your comments about the lack of direct comparison for performance of drivers. All we can assume is that if you're hustling a Tuscan around a track at decent pace you must have *some* kind of talent.
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