Discussion
MG511 said:
Agree with that, having admitted breaking his car I don't see how they thought they could win against Piper, but maybe I'm being too simplistic.
You're not being simplistic at all. 1) Hales was asked if he was insured, he claimed he was. As it turns out he was but not in all circumstances, there were specific exclusions. Damage caused by driver error was one of them. Also mechanical breakdown was also not covered (this does beg the question about what was covered but that's a different argument).
2) Hales was explicitly told not to rev the car beyond 7,000rpm. The damage occurred at 8,200rpm.
3) Hales claimed it was not his fault but then admitted to the insurance company that it was.
4) The judge found Hales to be "a most unreliable witness whose evidence was creative, inconsistent, self-motivated and incredible".
5) The damage to the engine was valued at £40,000. The rest of the costs came from fighting the case.
These are the facts. None of them are disputed by Mark Hales. He may feel sore, but the he picked a fight when he was provably in the wrong. David Piper, as far as I can make out, has played it by the book. He seems to have done nothing except sue for a legitimate breach of contract, and then sue to reclaim his costs.
I'm struggling to see what this great wave of support for Mark Hales is based on.
shoestring7 said:
Why the 7,000 limit?
In period the 917 produced max power at 8400, was limited to 8700 or 8800 and broke at 9200.
SS7
To lessen risk?In period the 917 produced max power at 8400, was limited to 8700 or 8800 and broke at 9200.
SS7
Obviously it is a highly strung unit, but an 800 rpm window between max output and breaking, doesn't leave a lot of margin for error - as MH found.
williamp said:
Dont want to derail th hred, but can alder engine b pe rv-limited?? Maybe by mechaniclly stopping the throttles opening all e way or smething?
Yes, but by putting a limiter across the coil to stop it sparking above the limit : http://www.msdignition.com/Products/RPM/Timing_Con...Rollcage said:
shoestring7 said:
Why the 7,000 limit?
In period the 917 produced max power at 8400, was limited to 8700 or 8800 and broke at 9200.
SS7
To lessen risk?In period the 917 produced max power at 8400, was limited to 8700 or 8800 and broke at 9200.
SS7
Obviously it is a highly strung unit, but an 800 rpm window between max output and breaking, doesn't leave a lot of margin for error - as MH found.
Obviously Mr Piper is fully within his rights to set what ever limit he likes, but that doesn't mean to say that breaking an arbitrary limit causes the engine to explode.
heebeegeetee said:
Obviously Mr Piper is fully within his rights to set what ever limit he likes, but that doesn't mean to say that breaking an arbitrary limit causes the engine to explode.
No, it doesnt, however on this occasion the engine broke because it was over revved as a result of a missed gearshiftThose are the stated facts, and as far as I can ascertain, no one is disputing them
freedman said:
No, it doesnt, however on this occasion the engine broke because it was over revved as a result of a missed gearshift
Those are the stated facts, and as far as I can ascertain, no one is disputing them
It's a strange case then, because every time you see a 917 racing you'll be watching it operating at over 8200 rpm. They did in their day and they do now.Those are the stated facts, and as far as I can ascertain, no one is disputing them
I can not understand why this one car would break at a rate less than which it develops maximum power. I'm not even sure how operating it at a speed under which it develops max power can be described as over-revved, other than it exceeded an arbitrarily set limit which does not seem to accord to any good reason as far as I can see.
heebeegeetee said:
It's a strange case then, because every time you see a 917 racing you'll be watching it operating at over 8200 rpm. They did in their day and they do now.
I can not understand why this one car would break at a rate less than which it develops maximum power. I'm not even sure how operating it at a speed under which it develops max power can be described as over-revved, other than it exceeded an arbitrarily set limit which does not seem to accord to any good reason as far as I can see.
From what I remember of the court transcript said that the engine over revved to at least 8200 rpm, so could have been much more momentarily. I don't believe that the cause of engine failure was contested, it is generally accepted that the failure was the result of over revving.I can not understand why this one car would break at a rate less than which it develops maximum power. I'm not even sure how operating it at a speed under which it develops max power can be described as over-revved, other than it exceeded an arbitrarily set limit which does not seem to accord to any good reason as far as I can see.
The point of the set rev limit was that the car was loaned for a low risk magazine test, not an out and out test of performance much less a race, so there was no need for anything other than a very conservative limit.
heebeegeetee said:
It's a strange case then, because every time you see a 917 racing you'll be watching it operating at over 8200 rpm. They did in their day and they do now.
I can not understand why this one car would break at a rate less than which it develops maximum power. I'm not even sure how operating it at a speed under which it develops max power can be described as over-revved, other than it exceeded an arbitrarily set limit which does not seem to accord to any good reason as far as I can see.
It's completely irrelevant to the case but you don't know that all 917s you see at historic meetings are running to their in period specs. Just because Porsche as a factory effort with all their resources could run engines for 24hrs at high stress levels doesn't mean the guys running them on a weekend racing ticket want to do the same.I can not understand why this one car would break at a rate less than which it develops maximum power. I'm not even sure how operating it at a speed under which it develops max power can be described as over-revved, other than it exceeded an arbitrarily set limit which does not seem to accord to any good reason as far as I can see.
Indeed.
As for the revving issue- it doesn't necessary follow that it needs to be evidence as to why the car broke. It is evidence that Hales was either purposefully or otherwise negligent, to support the notion that driver error was the likely cause. If Hales can overrev, despite being told not to, he is either not to be trusted or is not always competent, or both.
As for the revving issue- it doesn't necessary follow that it needs to be evidence as to why the car broke. It is evidence that Hales was either purposefully or otherwise negligent, to support the notion that driver error was the likely cause. If Hales can overrev, despite being told not to, he is either not to be trusted or is not always competent, or both.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
It's completely irrelevant to the case but you don't know that all 917s you see at historic meetings are running to their in period specs. Just because Porsche as a factory effort with all their resources could run engines for 24hrs at high stress levels doesn't mean the guys running them on a weekend racing ticket want to do the same.
I agree it's irrelevant, it's just a point that interests me.I'm not sure there's anywhere that current owners could race their cars for more than 6 hours. I also think that the very wealthy people of today have more wealth than some countries, never mid a relatively young business back in the 60's 70's.
Today historic cars run faster than they did in the period when driven by highly talented drivers. I'd be very surprised if a current 917 engine isn't more powerful and reliable than in the day, but even in the day they didn't go pop because they'd done 8,200 rpm.
10 Pence Short said:
If Hales can overrev, despite being told not to, he is either not to be trusted or is not always competent, or both.
That may be the case, but he is still one of the very best drivers out there, and possibly the best who can drive and write well about it. If hales can over-rev, then so can absolutely every one else, imo.
heebeegeetee said:
...but even in the day they didn't go pop because they'd done 8,200 rpm.
At least 8200rpm according to the court judgement. We don't know how fast the engine was spinning when the damage was done because that wasn't relevent to the case, provided it was in excess of the agreed limit of 7000rpm.heebeegeetee said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
It's completely irrelevant to the case but you don't know that all 917s you see at historic meetings are running to their in period specs. Just because Porsche as a factory effort with all their resources could run engines for 24hrs at high stress levels doesn't mean the guys running them on a weekend racing ticket want to do the same.
I agree it's irrelevant, it's just a point that interests me.I'm not sure there's anywhere that current owners could race their cars for more than 6 hours. I also think that the very wealthy people of today have more wealth than some countries, never mid a relatively young business back in the 60's 70's.
Today historic cars run faster than they did in the period when driven by highly talented drivers. I'd be very surprised if a current 917 engine isn't more powerful and reliable than in the day, but even in the day they didn't go pop because they'd done 8,200 rpm.
Read something like peak power 8400, engines destroy at 8500! Also, again my memory might be letting me down but I'm almost certain that "buzzing" an engine to over 8000 revs would blow it, in order to reach peak power they had to inch up to the limit in top gear in order to get full speed.
Iirc there are quite a few interviews that testify to this & most drivers could not sustain such fine tolerances over 12-24 hours, hence the large numbers of cars that never saw the flag.
So taking this into consideration & I'm sure you can imagine that cars built for classic racing/demo runs such as they are now would not be so highly tested. Why would they? The future of your company isn't resting on winning! Yes I know they'd be expected to be more reliable but I'm sure part if the reason for them being so is that they won't be expected to touch 8400rpm whilst doing 240mph down te mulsanne!
I go back to the irrelavence of this point, MH had been told not to exceed a set rev limit & no matter how low that limit was set, he didn't stick to it & the engine let go. Simple as.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
my memory might be letting me down
It is. If the engine in Piper's car was in track worthy condition, then it would take more than 9,000rpm for damage to the valve train, and I would expect to be reading that the over-rev indicted by the tell-tale was "at least 9,XXX rpm'.
If the engine really wasn't safe at more than 7,000 and a bit, then it seems clear it either had a pre-existing problem or was overdue a rebuild.
SS7
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