Discussion
But to what end?
There comes a point where the use of the technology does absolutely nothing to the sport, or the spectacle. All it does is raise the costs and make the sport inaccessable. Isn't that where F1 seems to have arrived at now?
My ideal F1 car would be something like a cross between a Formula Ford and a TVR Tuscan - all grunt and no grip - limited to around 500 bhp max - more than enough with no downforce.
There comes a point where the use of the technology does absolutely nothing to the sport, or the spectacle. All it does is raise the costs and make the sport inaccessable. Isn't that where F1 seems to have arrived at now?
My ideal F1 car would be something like a cross between a Formula Ford and a TVR Tuscan - all grunt and no grip - limited to around 500 bhp max - more than enough with no downforce.
Saw an interesting theory put forward by Dave Despain on the Speed channels nightly talk show here in the US about Ecclestone. He reckons that Bernie is trying to run the show into the ground so he can buy it back off the banks he sold it to for a fraction of what he paid for it. Before building it all up and selling it off again...
Bit far fetched but made me chuckle.
Thought Bernie would be more interested in retiring and actually enjoying his countless wealth but then that's not the nature of the beast.
Bit far fetched but made me chuckle.
Thought Bernie would be more interested in retiring and actually enjoying his countless wealth but then that's not the nature of the beast.
I wonder whether ITV are worried about flagging viewing numbers should Britain not have a Grand Prix.
Ecclestone has said when referring to new 'designer circuits' "You can't go around the world asking people to build these terrific facilities and then we have this thing back in England called Silverstone that we are ashamed of."
I'm not ashamed of Silverstone - I love it (I loved it even more before the Woodcote chicane), but I assume he is not ashamed of Monaco, nor Imola.
A few years ago, I went to Imola at the time when Silverstone was being slagged off for the poor car park and general public facilities, and found myself walking about mile to the circuit from the car park which was a rough field (about the same as Silverstone's 'additional' parking). There were no information signs to various circuit entrances etc,. and getting back on the main routes after the race was as bad as Silverstone - we expect this from a major event, but is Imola under threat?
I'm sorry if I don't fit his idea of a motor racing fan - I'm prepared to don wellies and waterproofs. I don't want to sit in a multi-thousand seater stand removed from the closeness of the track and pay highly for the privilege. I'm happy to see the back of Bernie, but I guess he's glad to see the back of me!
Ecclestone has said when referring to new 'designer circuits' "You can't go around the world asking people to build these terrific facilities and then we have this thing back in England called Silverstone that we are ashamed of."
I'm not ashamed of Silverstone - I love it (I loved it even more before the Woodcote chicane), but I assume he is not ashamed of Monaco, nor Imola.
A few years ago, I went to Imola at the time when Silverstone was being slagged off for the poor car park and general public facilities, and found myself walking about mile to the circuit from the car park which was a rough field (about the same as Silverstone's 'additional' parking). There were no information signs to various circuit entrances etc,. and getting back on the main routes after the race was as bad as Silverstone - we expect this from a major event, but is Imola under threat?
I'm sorry if I don't fit his idea of a motor racing fan - I'm prepared to don wellies and waterproofs. I don't want to sit in a multi-thousand seater stand removed from the closeness of the track and pay highly for the privilege. I'm happy to see the back of Bernie, but I guess he's glad to see the back of me!
Eric Mc said:
But to what end?
There comes a point where the use of the technology does absolutely nothing to the sport, or the spectacle. All it does is raise the costs and make the sport inaccessable. Isn't that where F1 seems to have arrived at now?
My ideal F1 car would be something like a cross between a Formula Ford and a TVR Tuscan - all grunt and no grip - limited to around 500 bhp max - more than enough with no downforce.
It doesn't matter how much power you have, if grip is limited drivability counts far more. I think the grip issue combined with fuel consumption would limit the power teams would want.
Limiting fuel would help, even if it was done by reducing the refuelling flow as they do in Le Mans.
Say a refuelling stop took a minute instead of the current 11 seconds for the same amount of fuel. The teams would have to balance fuel consumption (and hence speed) against laptimes. This would be pretty easy for F1 to implement now as it wouldn't need any car modifications.
Chris_w said:
Saw an interesting theory put forward by Dave Despain on the Speed channels nightly talk show here in the US about Ecclestone. He reckons that Bernie is trying to run the show into the ground so he can buy it back off the banks he sold it to for a fraction of what he paid for it. Before building it all up and selling it off again...
I am unsure whether the banks own a majority, it they do then they should surely be able to dislodge Bernie before he trahses their investment. If Bernie still holds the majority, why would he trash HIS investment.
I think the plain facts are that places like Bahrain, Russia and China are loaded with cash and opportunity, and aren't banning tobacco sponsorhsip. If what Bernie was doing for Formula 1 wasn't good for Formula 1, why wouldn't all the teams just chuck in the towel?
And as for the cars, I think they would be fine as they are, but would be better if they stuck slicks back on and allowed electronic driving aids. I remember people complaining back then that it took the emphasis off the driver - probably the same whingers are now bleating that Schumacher is too good for the rest of the field. As our red-necked cousins might say, Go Figure!
The teams aren't particularly interested in what's "good for F1". They are interested in what's good for themselves - which is not quite the same thing.
It is this blinkered view which is driving the decline of F1 as a spectacle. Bernie's solution to dwindling interest in traditional F1 "markets" is to find new "markets" elsewhere. My solution would be to try and re-invigorate interest in the traditional markets rather than just abandon them and look elsewhere.
If you decide to ditch your existing customer base and try and create a brand new one from scratch - you are on a hiding to nothing - ask Rod Eddington of BA.
It is this blinkered view which is driving the decline of F1 as a spectacle. Bernie's solution to dwindling interest in traditional F1 "markets" is to find new "markets" elsewhere. My solution would be to try and re-invigorate interest in the traditional markets rather than just abandon them and look elsewhere.
If you decide to ditch your existing customer base and try and create a brand new one from scratch - you are on a hiding to nothing - ask Rod Eddington of BA.
Eric Mc said:
My ideal F1 car would be something like a cross between a Formula Ford and a TVR Tuscan - all grunt and no grip - limited to around 500 bhp max - more than enough with no downforce.
Exactly, and a such series nearly does exist- its the BTCC. Well its at least exciting even if its a couple of hundred BHP short and the power comes out the wrong end!
If Britain looses F1, I for one will vote with my pocket. Wee Bernie needs the shock of reality, as his decision making process is obviously impaired. We must not forget what an excellent job of looking after the Grand Prix the BRDC has done at Silverstone- what a circuit!
>> Edited by Alfa Mad on Friday 1st October 21:58
Yes, cars like the Lotus 49 and Eagle were the ultimate F1 cars. People should search out film footage of these cars in action (it's surprising how LITTLE film/TV record there is of this era i.e 1966-67). Obviously, for safety reasons we couldn't build them the same way - I have nothing against kevlar and safety cells but the basic handling characteristics of those 1967 cars should be inherent in the design. The only stipulation would be that they have to be open cockpit and open wheeled.
Cars of that era usually topped out at 180 mph at places like the old Spa or Monza so they were plenty fast. Their problems were in corners where they really struggled to put their 450 to 500 bhp down - but made for wonderful sliding, drifting and tail out turns with drivers applying bundles of opposite lock. Watching footage of Clark wrestling his Lotus 49 out of La Source is breathtaking.
And, of course, the lack of aerodynamic aids allowed slipstreaming and necessitated early braking for corners - thereby giving drivers plenty of overtaking opportunities. Again, footage of this in action is rare but there is video available of the 1967 Italian GP at Monza and it is great stuff - bunches of 5 or 6 cars howling around in little clusters, overtaking and re-overtaking each other all the time.
It was this type of F1 racing that got me hooked as a 7 pr 8 year old kid. If I was 7 or 8 today, I'd probably be getting hooked on motor cycle racing instead.
Cars of that era usually topped out at 180 mph at places like the old Spa or Monza so they were plenty fast. Their problems were in corners where they really struggled to put their 450 to 500 bhp down - but made for wonderful sliding, drifting and tail out turns with drivers applying bundles of opposite lock. Watching footage of Clark wrestling his Lotus 49 out of La Source is breathtaking.
And, of course, the lack of aerodynamic aids allowed slipstreaming and necessitated early braking for corners - thereby giving drivers plenty of overtaking opportunities. Again, footage of this in action is rare but there is video available of the 1967 Italian GP at Monza and it is great stuff - bunches of 5 or 6 cars howling around in little clusters, overtaking and re-overtaking each other all the time.
It was this type of F1 racing that got me hooked as a 7 pr 8 year old kid. If I was 7 or 8 today, I'd probably be getting hooked on motor cycle racing instead.
I read an intersting article about ecclestone and his rise to prominence. Now I know you shouldn't believe everything you read but this seemed to be a fairly level piece.
Ultimately Bernie assumed control over F1's coffers by stepping into the breach when it was all going pear shaped during the FOCA v FIA wars of the 70's. At that time he took it upon himself as head of FOCA to promote the races and drum up interest in F1. He then offerred the teams an opportunity to join him by putting up some of their money to promote races, they declined as they didn't fancy the risk. The rest is history.
As he said, the problem is that the teams don't really want the money (I know that's not true of all of them), they just don't want him to have anymore.......
Ultimately Bernie assumed control over F1's coffers by stepping into the breach when it was all going pear shaped during the FOCA v FIA wars of the 70's. At that time he took it upon himself as head of FOCA to promote the races and drum up interest in F1. He then offerred the teams an opportunity to join him by putting up some of their money to promote races, they declined as they didn't fancy the risk. The rest is history.
As he said, the problem is that the teams don't really want the money (I know that's not true of all of them), they just don't want him to have anymore.......
Eric Mc said:
Yes, cars like the Lotus 49 and Eagle were the ultimate F1 cars. People should search out film footage of these cars in action (it's surprising how LITTLE film/TV record there is of this era i.e 1966-67). Obviously, for safety reasons we couldn't build them the same way - I have nothing against kevlar and safety cells but the basic handling characteristics of those 1967 cars should be inherent in the design. The only stipulation would be that they have to be open cockpit and open wheeled.
Cars of that era usually topped out at 180 mph at places like the old Spa or Monza so they were plenty fast. Their problems were in corners where they really struggled to put their 450 to 500 bhp down - but made for wonderful sliding, drifting and tail out turns with drivers applying bundles of opposite lock. Watching footage of Clark wrestling his Lotus 49 out of La Source is breathtaking.
And, of course, the lack of aerodynamic aids allowed slipstreaming and necessitated early braking for corners - thereby giving drivers plenty of overtaking opportunities. Again, footage of this in action is rare but there is video available of the 1967 Italian GP at Monza and it is great stuff - bunches of 5 or 6 cars howling around in little clusters, overtaking and re-overtaking each other all the time.
It was this type of F1 racing that got me hooked as a 7 pr 8 year old kid. If I was 7 or 8 today, I'd probably be getting hooked on motor cycle racing instead.
I am totally in love with this era of F1. And thats some feat for a chap who's first F1 memory is the mansell blowout in adelaide '86 (i was 6...
) The 49 is a lesson in simplcity and the genuis for Colin Chapman. The Eagle is one of the most beautiful veichles ever created. This is a short era in F1 of between '66 and '68, when the 3.0 era began and before teams started messing with aerodynamics. Foe me the zenith of this era is '67 - when the '49 was introduced and when the eagle was in full flight.
For anyone wanting to get a feel for the era, get hold of the VHS "Nine Days In Summer" which charts the early progress of getting the DFV-powered 49 on the grid and includes '67 race footage. I have an old episode of the BBC's "Power and the GLory" that has some enthralling footage from 1968 with interviews from Colin Champman (this was what orginially got me hooked at 10 years old lol). I'd love to get hold of that
>> Edited by jimmyc412t2 on Wednesday 6th October 19:51
pwig said:
And buy GPL (based on the 67 season )
Yes indeed forgot about that
An absolutley FANTASTIC game despite the fact its completley out of date now (i mean the graphics engine not the season LOL) a full nurburgring to play with and the 8 mile spa..190mph down the back straight in a Lotus 49 or Ferrari 312 is the best. I KNOW ITS ONLY A COMPUTER GAME but i don't care!!
oh and while we're on the subject... BRM H16
I have about as much luck with it in GPL as JYS ever did 
wolosp said:
I'm not ashamed of Silverstone - I love it (I loved it even more before the Woodcote chicane), but I assume he is not ashamed of Monaco, nor Imola.
A few years ago, I went to Imola at the time when Silverstone was being slagged off for the poor car park and general public facilities, and found myself walking about mile to the circuit from the car park which was a rough field (about the same as Silverstone's 'additional' parking). There were no information signs to various circuit entrances etc,. and getting back on the main routes after the race was as bad as Silverstone - we expect this from a major event, but is Imola under threat?
I'm sorry if I don't fit his idea of a motor racing fan - I'm prepared to don wellies and waterproofs. I don't want to sit in a multi-thousand seater stand removed from the closeness of the track and pay highly for the privilege. I'm happy to see the back of Bernie, but I guess he's glad to see the back of me!
That's the problem - as a paying spectator no-one cares about you. Certainly not Bernie, and certainly not any of the team owners or drivers. They're so detached from reality of the sport that it's quite pathetic to see.
minghis said:
I'm happy to see the back of Bernie, but I guess he's glad to see the back of me!
The only consolation is that Bernie is getting quite old so we may not have to put up with him much longer...
legal disclaimer - that in no way constitutes a threat on Eccle's life just a statement of fact.
Rich... 
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