Is Schumacher Arrogant ?
Discussion
Bitter'n'twisted said:
Not as arrogant as most F1 drivers I could name.
Besides all that, I have the impression a lot of people don't like him just because he's proved himself BY FAR the best f1 driver ever, and he's German.
I can't understand why so many people don't want to see the greatest F1 driver ever racing any more.
I am pleased I saw one of his many victories at Silverstone last year. In years to come, people will (rightly) look back at Schumacher with even more awe (if that's the right word) than they do now at Fangio.
It's the others lack of performance that makes F1 a bit mundane sometimes, not his excellence. (Example, when it was absolutely chucking it down at Spa several years ago and he went into the back of DC in zero visibility, he was at 100% throttle in those conditions, DC was at around 60% I believe).
You're very young, aren't you?
MS isn't the best F1 driver ever - not anywhere near. He's a very good all rounder, but he's not the fastest over a single lap. His huge number of victories in recent years has partly come from the reliability of modern GP cars which, compared even to 10 years ago, are metronomic in their efficiency - especially the seemingly unbreakable Ferraris.
Schumacher lacks something that makes a 'Great' - sportsmanship. MS and Senna both. Neither of them can/could even contemplate losing, which is why they have both deliberately placed others' lives in danger to prove that they can't be beaten. Okay, Senna only really did it to Prost, but MS has, variously, attempted to take out such as Hill, Hakkinen, Montoya, Villeneuve, Coulthard, Frentzen etc over the years. Remember what he did to Alonso at the British GP last year? Pushed him onto the grass at 190mph on Hanger Straight - much as he did to Hakkinen at 200mph at Spa in 2000. That may not show arrogance, but it displays a certain disregard for his fellow competitors.
His perceived arrogance comes from that fine line between supreme confidence and arrogance. Contrast him with Rossi - who's a smashing, personable bloke - or Gronholm, or Solberg and you can see the difference. Those guys are at the top of their game too, but the attitude is different.
Maybe Schumacher does have a weakness. Maybe he doesn't have that much confidence in his own abilities. After all, he still insists that Barrichello isn't allowed to beat him on the track. Rossi doesn't need that sort of clause in his team mate's contract...
He is a fantastic driver he is allowed to be arrogant.
who decided this arrogance the press because he didnt turn up to an awards ceremony.
maybe he has other commmitments
He has been known to take calculated risks,he has sometimes played dirty,but in the end he is one of the worlds greatest racing car drivers. (not like the old school)but a good driver all the same.
no-one not even the press can take that away from him.
He who dares wins.
His Bro is getting there.
and Jenson is catching him up.
F1 would be so boring if all the drivers were alike.
I admire them all the arrogant and those not so .
I envy them there job,racing and getting paid for it.
>> Edited by jessica on Friday 24th December 15:40
who decided this arrogance the press because he didnt turn up to an awards ceremony.
maybe he has other commmitments
He has been known to take calculated risks,he has sometimes played dirty,but in the end he is one of the worlds greatest racing car drivers. (not like the old school)but a good driver all the same.
no-one not even the press can take that away from him.
He who dares wins.
His Bro is getting there.
and Jenson is catching him up.
F1 would be so boring if all the drivers were alike.
I admire them all the arrogant and those not so .
I envy them there job,racing and getting paid for it.
>> Edited by jessica on Friday 24th December 15:40
Finest Grand Prix driver in the history of the sport? Are you sure?
You are dismissing all the great drivers from 1906 to the present day - drivers such as Szisz, Nuvolari, Carraciola, Clark, Moss, Fangio, Stewart and Prost.
How do you measure greatness? Simply winning the most number of races is not, on its own, sufficient. All the other atributes that make a sportsman great also have to be considered - including that ill defined term, sportsmanship. If Schumacher has one serious weakness that is it - his inability to respect his competitors and, at times, his willingness to literally run them off the road in his pursuit of a victory.
The arrogance atributed to him comes not just because he is German, but also because of his behaviour on track. However, over the last few years I have noticed a mellowing in his style and his command of English has improved to the point where he no longer comes across as curt and aloof. In his earlier career with Benetton there were times when he really did his own cause no good at all.
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Friday 24th December 15:56
You are dismissing all the great drivers from 1906 to the present day - drivers such as Szisz, Nuvolari, Carraciola, Clark, Moss, Fangio, Stewart and Prost.
How do you measure greatness? Simply winning the most number of races is not, on its own, sufficient. All the other atributes that make a sportsman great also have to be considered - including that ill defined term, sportsmanship. If Schumacher has one serious weakness that is it - his inability to respect his competitors and, at times, his willingness to literally run them off the road in his pursuit of a victory.
The arrogance atributed to him comes not just because he is German, but also because of his behaviour on track. However, over the last few years I have noticed a mellowing in his style and his command of English has improved to the point where he no longer comes across as curt and aloof. In his earlier career with Benetton there were times when he really did his own cause no good at all.
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Friday 24th December 15:56
Heebeegeetee said:
And not forgetting of course, that it is completely stereotypical of the Brits to consider any/every German as arrogant.
Personally, I reckon you'd struggle to find another nation with as many unpleasant people as here in the UK.
I hate to say it but I completely agree.
An example of the above is right here in this thread.........
The two or three people who have met him say he is a likable personable chap and to the rest of you he is a tosser. I'm confused.
Who knows him to go out with? I personally have only seen him on the television coverage of the GP where he seems focused which could be taken for arrogance.
I admit that some of his driving is 'risky' at times but who doesn't take risks at some time or other?
This is all IMO of course and I couldn't give a flying fig about MS one way or another.
Come on Jenson.
Eric Mc said:
Finest Grand Prix driver in the history of the sport? Are you sure?
You are dismissing all the great drivers from 1906 to the present day - drivers such as Szisz, Nuvolari, Carraciola, Clark, Moss, Fangio, Stewart and Prost.
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Friday 24th December 15:56
I know it's impossible to compare like for like. But the bloke is amazing. He can sit still in his car in the pits...whilst it's on fire! and still win the race. He can win a race with only half the cogs in the gearbox. You say it's not jusy about winning races, but arithmetically it must be a pretty objective measure! Yep, for me he is the best of all time...by a mile.
Compare that to some of the things Clark and Fangio and Moss have done. Here's a quick story for you:
1967 Italian GP, at Monza, pre chicanes of course. This means there are only 2 corners on the track you need to brake for. Its very hard to be massively faster than people at Monza because there is not much time to find.
Jim Clark qualifies somewhere towards the front of the grid in his Lotus. He is running in 3rd place or so behind his team mate Hill before he picks up a puncture and has to crawl back to the pits for a new wheel and tyre. When he leaves the pits he is a lap down. He proceeds to unlap himself and then eventually overtake the whole field and make it up to 1st place. Unfortunately he runs out of fuel on the last lap. Still a stellar performance.
In some GP Moss won by 3 min 24 seconds, Fangio was in second place...
Michael Schumacer is very good but in my view doesn't count as one of the greats because:
1. He has never had to compete alongside another "great"
2. He drives in a period of much safer cars so can push the limit with much less of a penalty if it goes wrong (1/4 of the drivers were on the grid in the 1st race of 1967 would eventually die in racing).
3. He can score so many victories becuase cars are so much more reliable these days (so straight statistical comparisons are meaningless).
4. He doesn't really have enough respect for the people he races with not to pull idiotic moves on them. (see: Hill 94, Villeneuve 97, Hakkinen at Spa, Alonso at Silverstone etc.)
1967 Italian GP, at Monza, pre chicanes of course. This means there are only 2 corners on the track you need to brake for. Its very hard to be massively faster than people at Monza because there is not much time to find.
Jim Clark qualifies somewhere towards the front of the grid in his Lotus. He is running in 3rd place or so behind his team mate Hill before he picks up a puncture and has to crawl back to the pits for a new wheel and tyre. When he leaves the pits he is a lap down. He proceeds to unlap himself and then eventually overtake the whole field and make it up to 1st place. Unfortunately he runs out of fuel on the last lap. Still a stellar performance.
In some GP Moss won by 3 min 24 seconds, Fangio was in second place...
Michael Schumacer is very good but in my view doesn't count as one of the greats because:
1. He has never had to compete alongside another "great"
2. He drives in a period of much safer cars so can push the limit with much less of a penalty if it goes wrong (1/4 of the drivers were on the grid in the 1st race of 1967 would eventually die in racing).
3. He can score so many victories becuase cars are so much more reliable these days (so straight statistical comparisons are meaningless).
4. He doesn't really have enough respect for the people he races with not to pull idiotic moves on them. (see: Hill 94, Villeneuve 97, Hakkinen at Spa, Alonso at Silverstone etc.)
D Mike - exactly. I have no reservations in saying that Herr MS is, without doubt, the greatest F1 driver of the current generation. However, his predecssors lived in a very different world where the spectre of death or serious injury always rode with them in their cars.
Often overlooked too is the sheer versatility required of earlier drivers. They had to ply their trade in all manner of cars - at the same time that they were competing in F1. You could see that Moss was great in anything he drove, as was Fangio and as was Clark. All we know about Schumacher is that he is very good in an F1 car. I've no doubt that he would give a good account of himself if he was competing in sports cars our touring cars as well - but we don't really know for sure, because he never gets the chance to prove it.
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Friday 24th December 17:15
Often overlooked too is the sheer versatility required of earlier drivers. They had to ply their trade in all manner of cars - at the same time that they were competing in F1. You could see that Moss was great in anything he drove, as was Fangio and as was Clark. All we know about Schumacher is that he is very good in an F1 car. I've no doubt that he would give a good account of himself if he was competing in sports cars our touring cars as well - but we don't really know for sure, because he never gets the chance to prove it.
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Friday 24th December 17:15
The race of champions maybe gave an insight into that, he did OK but was beaten by a that Kovalienen chap who's not even in F3000 yet (or GP2 or whatever its gona be called next year), and made a bit of an odd mistake in another one of the heats where he slowed down because he thought he'd already finished 
>> Edited by Locoblade on Friday 24th December 17:30
>> Edited by Locoblade on Friday 24th December 17:30
Statistics are limited in their usefullness as a guide.
For a start, points totals are meaningless when the point scoring system has varied so much since its instigation in 1950.
Secondly, up to the mid 1970s, there were almost as many non-World Championship F1 races as there were point scoring ones. Most statistics quoted today ignore all those non-Championship races. As an example, in 1963, Jim Clark competed in 25 F1 races - and only 10 of those races counted for the World Championship.
Finally, between 1906 and 1949, save for the break of the two World Wars, Grand Prix races took place where no points were scored at all. This means great drivers like Rosemeyer, Caraciolla, Nuvolari, Von Brauchitsch etc are ignored completely in the statistical charts.
As I said earlier, sporting greatness is not only achieved by adding up numbers - you have to take into account the total person. their overall atitude, their style, their approach to competition and their fellow competitors, how they behaved when they lost and how they behaved off the track as well.
Doesn't Senna still hold the record for most Pole Positions?
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Friday 24th December 17:56
For a start, points totals are meaningless when the point scoring system has varied so much since its instigation in 1950.
Secondly, up to the mid 1970s, there were almost as many non-World Championship F1 races as there were point scoring ones. Most statistics quoted today ignore all those non-Championship races. As an example, in 1963, Jim Clark competed in 25 F1 races - and only 10 of those races counted for the World Championship.
Finally, between 1906 and 1949, save for the break of the two World Wars, Grand Prix races took place where no points were scored at all. This means great drivers like Rosemeyer, Caraciolla, Nuvolari, Von Brauchitsch etc are ignored completely in the statistical charts.
As I said earlier, sporting greatness is not only achieved by adding up numbers - you have to take into account the total person. their overall atitude, their style, their approach to competition and their fellow competitors, how they behaved when they lost and how they behaved off the track as well.
Doesn't Senna still hold the record for most Pole Positions?
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Friday 24th December 17:56
Didn't Simon Taylor write an article comparing the ratio of starts to victories in which Fangio was way ahead? My memory isn't good, do correct me, but I seem to remember JMF's ratio was something around 40%+, pretty incredible really.
I wouldn't pass comment on him personally as I haven't met Schuey, but I will pose a question or two:
Do you think Fangio would've sent a video in if he won an award as prestigious? From what I've gathered JMF was not only one (or probably the) most gifted driver to ever drive a GP car, but he was one of the humblest.
Would Fangio have tested his brakes in the Monaco tunnel?
BTW, I have German friends who can't stand MS, they speak of him in the same way Brits talk of Posh+Becks.
I wouldn't pass comment on him personally as I haven't met Schuey, but I will pose a question or two:
Do you think Fangio would've sent a video in if he won an award as prestigious? From what I've gathered JMF was not only one (or probably the) most gifted driver to ever drive a GP car, but he was one of the humblest.
Would Fangio have tested his brakes in the Monaco tunnel?
BTW, I have German friends who can't stand MS, they speak of him in the same way Brits talk of Posh+Becks.
flat16 said:
Didn't Simon Taylor write an article comparing the ratio of starts to victories in which Fangio was way ahead? My memory isn't good, do correct me, but I seem to remember JMF's ratio was something around 40%+, pretty incredible really.
I might be wrong (usually am), but if Fangio's car had a problem they used to turf the bloke out of the other car & swap rides. Might account for high number of finishes?
Fangio was usually number one in any team he was in - just like MS. In the 1950s driver swaps were allowed (Moss won a British GP by taking over Tony Brooks' car). If such tactics were allowed today, I have no doubt that Schumacher would have availed of them too.
Fangio didn't just race in F1 of course. He also raced in sports cars and actually started his career in (very) long range road races in South America.
The thing about Fangio is that all the other drivers idolised him and treated him with the greatest respect - almost like sons to a father. Don't forget, when he won the epic 1957 German GP at the old Nurburgring in 1957, he was already 46, over ten years older than virtually anybody else on the grid. After the race, the two young men who he had just overhauled and beaten (Hawthorn and Collins)went up to him and gave him big hugs. They knew that they had seen an example of a master at work and losing wasn't that important - especially if you'ld just lost to Fangio..
Fangio also won the World Championship that year.
Fangio NEVER did anything "dirty" in a race - unlike some. Even back then there were a few drivers with reputations for being rather "rough" in their style - Farina being one of them. Fangio always behaved in an exemplary fashion.
Fangio didn't just race in F1 of course. He also raced in sports cars and actually started his career in (very) long range road races in South America.
The thing about Fangio is that all the other drivers idolised him and treated him with the greatest respect - almost like sons to a father. Don't forget, when he won the epic 1957 German GP at the old Nurburgring in 1957, he was already 46, over ten years older than virtually anybody else on the grid. After the race, the two young men who he had just overhauled and beaten (Hawthorn and Collins)went up to him and gave him big hugs. They knew that they had seen an example of a master at work and losing wasn't that important - especially if you'ld just lost to Fangio..
Fangio also won the World Championship that year.
Fangio NEVER did anything "dirty" in a race - unlike some. Even back then there were a few drivers with reputations for being rather "rough" in their style - Farina being one of them. Fangio always behaved in an exemplary fashion.
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