Is Schumacher Arrogant ?
Discussion
It's strange how the only people who think he's arrogant are those who haven't met him, while those who have say he's actually a nice guy.
I know that he likes to take a decent amount of time off racing at the end of the season to recharge, so it's not that surprising that he didn't want to disrupt his holiday to pick up yet another award. After all, if I was in his position spending most of the year living in hotels and motorhomes, then I'd send a video too if it meant being able to spend time at home with my family!
As for him being the greatest F1 driver, I think some people's perceptions of him are clouded by their views on him being German/knocking Hill off/allegations of cheating in '94/other unfair tactics or simply not liking someone who is very successful - a common trait these days it seems.
While I agree that some of the things he's done aren't exactly sporting, he's not the only one, and you could say that he is carrying on the example that Senna set. F1 racing these days is a completely different world to the 50s, 60s, 70s and even 80s, and you can't deny that Schumacher has dominated it - some of this is going to be down to talent.
I think it's impossible to say who is the best F1 driver ever, as each era requires different skills. I'm not convinced that Moss or Fangio would excel in a current F1 car, just as Schumacher may not have excelled in Fangio's era, but they are all incredibly talented drivers. I also don't think that a slightly weak performance in the Race of Champions event this week can take away his achievements over the last 10+ years.
The facts are though that Schumacher is incredibly successful, not just as a driver, but at everything else that being an F1 driver involves. He raised the game with his fitness levels, his dedication and also his ability to help turn an average team into the dominating force that Ferrari are now. After all, Villeneuve had chance to do the same at BAR, but you don't see him going into 2005 with the chance of winning his 8th championship.
I know that he likes to take a decent amount of time off racing at the end of the season to recharge, so it's not that surprising that he didn't want to disrupt his holiday to pick up yet another award. After all, if I was in his position spending most of the year living in hotels and motorhomes, then I'd send a video too if it meant being able to spend time at home with my family!
As for him being the greatest F1 driver, I think some people's perceptions of him are clouded by their views on him being German/knocking Hill off/allegations of cheating in '94/other unfair tactics or simply not liking someone who is very successful - a common trait these days it seems.
While I agree that some of the things he's done aren't exactly sporting, he's not the only one, and you could say that he is carrying on the example that Senna set. F1 racing these days is a completely different world to the 50s, 60s, 70s and even 80s, and you can't deny that Schumacher has dominated it - some of this is going to be down to talent.
I think it's impossible to say who is the best F1 driver ever, as each era requires different skills. I'm not convinced that Moss or Fangio would excel in a current F1 car, just as Schumacher may not have excelled in Fangio's era, but they are all incredibly talented drivers. I also don't think that a slightly weak performance in the Race of Champions event this week can take away his achievements over the last 10+ years.
The facts are though that Schumacher is incredibly successful, not just as a driver, but at everything else that being an F1 driver involves. He raised the game with his fitness levels, his dedication and also his ability to help turn an average team into the dominating force that Ferrari are now. After all, Villeneuve had chance to do the same at BAR, but you don't see him going into 2005 with the chance of winning his 8th championship.
D_Mike said:
Compare that to some of the things Clark and Fangio and Moss have done. Here's a quick story for you:
1967 Italian GP, at Monza, pre chicanes of course. This means there are only 2 corners on the track you need to brake for. Its very hard to be massively faster than people at Monza because there is not much time to find.
Jim Clark qualifies somewhere towards the front of the grid in his Lotus. He is running in 3rd place or so behind his team mate Hill before he picks up a puncture and has to crawl back to the pits for a new wheel and tyre. When he leaves the pits he is a lap down. He proceeds to unlap himself and then eventually overtake the whole field and make it up to 1st place. Unfortunately he runs out of fuel on the last lap. Still a stellar performance.
In some GP Moss won by 3 min 24 seconds, Fangio was in second place...
Michael Schumacer is very good but in my view doesn't count as one of the greats because:
1. He has never had to compete alongside another "great"
2. He drives in a period of much safer cars so can push the limit with much less of a penalty if it goes wrong (1/4 of the drivers were on the grid in the 1st race of 1967 would eventually die in racing).
3. He can score so many victories becuase cars are so much more reliable these days (so straight statistical comparisons are meaningless).
4. He doesn't really have enough respect for the people he races with not to pull idiotic moves on them. (see: Hill 94, Villeneuve 97, Hakkinen at Spa, Alonso at Silverstone etc.)
I saw him live at Donnington against Senna in the rain and he was in an inferior car. Awesome. Another also ran Alain Prost
was in the race but he retired, scared cos by comparison the great Alain was a windy French Taxi driver. J.M. Fangio? Yes the greatest ever perhaps and certainly of his day Tazio Nuvolari indeed stakes a claim and Does the great Ayrton himself. MS? You will never see his like again on this planet, like Bradman Babe Ruth and Ali some are just born enjoy it while you can we are all very priveliged the very best only pass this way once and there are loads of comentators who we will soon forget, merry xmas 
None I've never regarded him as arrogant and he is good. Murray Walker never had a problem when interviewing him, it's all in the approach, if you're there to call him names, he's going to ignore you IMHO quite rightly.
Each driver is there to be shot down, if you think you're better, then beat him on the track. It's put up or shut up.
The one thing I feel very robbed of, by Williams incidently, was the potential battle between Senna, Mansell and Schumacher. They sacked Mansell(who then retired), engaged Senna (who was then killed), and Schumacher was left with a clear field, it's been so ever since very sad.
C'mon Jenson, We're supporting you, you've done GREAT so far! I feel, you're the one to pressure him.
Love to see ya build on it race by race. 
>> Edited by 8Pack on Saturday 25th December 02:23
Each driver is there to be shot down, if you think you're better, then beat him on the track. It's put up or shut up.
The one thing I feel very robbed of, by Williams incidently, was the potential battle between Senna, Mansell and Schumacher. They sacked Mansell(who then retired), engaged Senna (who was then killed), and Schumacher was left with a clear field, it's been so ever since very sad.
C'mon Jenson, We're supporting you, you've done GREAT so far! I feel, you're the one to pressure him.
Love to see ya build on it race by race. >> Edited by 8Pack on Saturday 25th December 02:23
8Pack said:unfortunately as other posts and your own point out, in the context of this discussion it's not possible as there are different generations of drivers under consideration and many are already blatting round that big circuit in the sky. Whatever his talents and merits, and there are many, Schuey presents as as an arrogant individual. Could be something to do with the huge sums of money he 'earns', folk in that position might actually start to think they're worth it in some absolute sense, when they are so very not.
...beat him on the track. It's put up or shut up...
Being number one in any real sport requires an absolute belief in one's ability. This may very well come across as arrogant.
MS gets paid huge fees but who in their right mind would turn it down? The rough days when you struggle without any praise or pennies with the knowledge that at any moment it could all end would have most accepting the big payments whenever they could. Can't really knock a chap for taking a payday can you?
Also, different people handle fame/fortune/being at the top in different ways. Some shy away from it, some run to the lime light. MS seems like a very decent chap. I have met him just the once but everything he did (I was spying on him the entire night) seemed very measured and efficient. From the handshakes to the amount of time he spent talking to people. He was friendly, polite and just a normal chap who is in a very hard, sweet job. Having everyone that meets you tell you that "you are the best" does have an effect on you be it big or small. From what I've seen, he seems to have turned out alright despite the amazing attention/cash/titles/praise he receives on an daily basis.
It is honestly not his fault that nobody else is up to their game. I am just glad the boy is still racing to keep everyone else pushing to up their levels. When he does retire then I think there will be quite a few guys wrestling for the title on an even level.
Good on ya Mike and a belated Merry Christmas to you (Germans celebrate on the 24th I think).
MARA
>> Edited by maranellouk on Saturday 25th December 10:45
MS gets paid huge fees but who in their right mind would turn it down? The rough days when you struggle without any praise or pennies with the knowledge that at any moment it could all end would have most accepting the big payments whenever they could. Can't really knock a chap for taking a payday can you?
Also, different people handle fame/fortune/being at the top in different ways. Some shy away from it, some run to the lime light. MS seems like a very decent chap. I have met him just the once but everything he did (I was spying on him the entire night) seemed very measured and efficient. From the handshakes to the amount of time he spent talking to people. He was friendly, polite and just a normal chap who is in a very hard, sweet job. Having everyone that meets you tell you that "you are the best" does have an effect on you be it big or small. From what I've seen, he seems to have turned out alright despite the amazing attention/cash/titles/praise he receives on an daily basis.
It is honestly not his fault that nobody else is up to their game. I am just glad the boy is still racing to keep everyone else pushing to up their levels. When he does retire then I think there will be quite a few guys wrestling for the title on an even level.
Good on ya Mike and a belated Merry Christmas to you (Germans celebrate on the 24th I think).
MARA
>> Edited by maranellouk on Saturday 25th December 10:45
'I saw him live at Donnington against Senna in the rain and he was in an inferior car.'
yep, me too. It was the race where Senna lapped MS along with everyone else, (he did let Hill unlap himself when he was slowing to the finish). The Mclaren at the time was an absolute dog.
Senna = Genius
yep, me too. It was the race where Senna lapped MS along with everyone else, (he did let Hill unlap himself when he was slowing to the finish). The Mclaren at the time was an absolute dog.
Senna = Genius
towman said:
Met him - nice bloke.
Steve
, he is a very nice, down to earth chap, I've read both biographies and I seem to recall both saying he doesn't like 'being in the spotlight' much so tends to come across as being arrogant. After all we only see the guy for snippets at a time, the longest you probably see him actually on TV for is the press conference, I wouldn't say that's really enough to judge a person's character by but as what we see we tend to believe....and what we believe may not always be right
As I said earlier, the Schumacher of today seems to be a very different person to the Schumacher of 1993/94/95. He has obviously matured, his English is a lot better and that competiive drive, whilst obviously still present, is a lot less aggressive than in his younger days.
As for the 1993 McLaren - I don't think it was a dog at all. In fact, it was a very "handleable" car and it had all the gizmos allowed at that time. Its shorcoming was that it was underpowered. The damp conditions at Donnington that day played into Senna's hands - masterful driver, power shortage not such a disadvantage and a main competitor (Prost) who hated rain.
Just to remind folks - who was world champion that year?
As for the 1993 McLaren - I don't think it was a dog at all. In fact, it was a very "handleable" car and it had all the gizmos allowed at that time. Its shorcoming was that it was underpowered. The damp conditions at Donnington that day played into Senna's hands - masterful driver, power shortage not such a disadvantage and a main competitor (Prost) who hated rain.
Just to remind folks - who was world champion that year?
Graham.J said:
Met him - nice bloke.
Steve
The vast majority of folk who'll never meet him seem to be getting the wrong impression then - but if it's just because everyone tells him he's the best, or because he shuns the limelight and is awkward when in it, then with the PR gurus around somebody ought to tell Ferrari where Schuey can find a good media coach. He doesn't have to say a word to appear arrogant on TV, so if that's not what he wants as part of his mental game then there's something wrong somewhere.
Nobody's saying he hasn't broken nearly every record in the book or that we wouldn't trouser the readies in his position, the question was - is he arrogant? Yes still seems about right.
Eric Mc said:
Statistics are limited in their usefullness as a guide.
For a start, points totals are meaningless when the point scoring system has varied so much since its instigation in 1950.
Secondly, up to the mid 1970s, there were almost as many non-World Championship F1 races as there were point scoring ones. Most statistics quoted today ignore all those non-Championship races. As an example, in 1963, Jim Clark competed in 25 F1 races - and only 10 of those races counted for the World Championship.
Finally, between 1906 and 1949, save for the break of the two World Wars, Grand Prix races took place where no points were scored at all. This means great drivers like Rosemeyer, Caraciolla, Nuvolari, Von Brauchitsch etc are ignored completely in the statistical charts.
As I said earlier, sporting greatness is not only achieved by adding up numbers - you have to take into account the total person. their overall atitude, their style, their approach to competition and their fellow competitors, how they behaved when they lost and how they behaved off the track as well.
Doesn't Senna still hold the record for most Pole Positions?
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Friday 24th December 17:56
this is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic but the drivers you mention are all characters in 'where eagles dare' - do you know why this might be the case?
Rosemeyer, Caraciolla, Von Brauchitsch...
micky g said:
'I saw him live at Donnington against Senna in the rain and he was in an inferior car.'
yep, me too. It was the race where Senna lapped MS along with everyone else, (he did let Hill unlap himself when he was slowing to the finish). The Mclaren at the time was an absolute dog.
Senna = Genius
The maclaren sounded like a dog because Senna was continually engaging the traction control. Andretti was, like father not particularly good.
Eric Mc said:
Fangio was usually number one in any team he was in - just like MS. In the 1950s driver swaps were allowed (Moss won a British GP by taking over Tony Brooks' car). If such tactics were allowed today, I have no doubt that Schumacher would have availed of them too.
Or even passing his team mate on the final corner of the final lap, nah Saint Michael would never do that would he???
He may be racking up victories that surpass records, he may come across in the media as an arrogant German type and be a really nice chap, but i still don't think the bloke is one of the true greats of motorsport, in my mind he'll never match some of the great gladiators of motorsport of a past and lost age.
Comparing the drivers such as the Renault brothers (one of which suffered the first recorded death in motorsport IIRC, may be wrong though) and the other other early pioneers of motorsport, through the ages to the current crop of the worlds 'elite' drivers, is IMO impossible. How can you compare the drivers of the huge Pannards or Renaults or Alfas to the contempory cars with maybe 100 times the power, about a quarter of the weight, etc etc etc. Each generation has its heros, each generation will have its leading drivers, but some drivers will be talked about once the pages of the history books are lost, I reckon Schumacher will be forgotten.
My two penneth.
Regards
Iain
>> Edited by chassis 33 on Sunday 26th December 15:22
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