Is Schumacher Arrogant ?

[loaf]

Eric Mc said:

Winning is imporatnt - but is it the ONLY thing that's important. I think that's the difference between modern "sportsmen" and earlier generations. HOW you went about achieving something was once as important as the actual achievement.

In professional sports winning is everything - as long as you play by the rules. In amateur sports yes, your manner and attitude were/are as important as the game when you all met in the bar afterwards to bend an elbow; times change. Like it or not in the professional game sponsors - and their money - do not want to be associated with losers, regardless of the manner in which the game was played. History only remembers winners.

[Heebeegeetee]

The Donington race was in '93, when tc was legal.

I don't think there's been a 'British' Ferrari for some years. I can't remember when the Guilford Technical Office (GTO - geddit?) was closed, but I don't think there's been a British involvement since Jean Todt took over.

Oh, apart from Ross brawn of course, but he, Rory Byrne is it, and another chap whose name escapes me right now (well, it is 2am, and I've just got back from hic! a party)didn't go to ferrari until well after Schuey left Benneton. By which time Berger and Alesi had demonstrated to them just how good Schuey was.

To move from a championship team to a team that wasn't winning was an extremely unusual move. I don't think I know of a comparison, before that time. Can someone enlighten me?

[Shelsleyf2]

Hmm didn't our Nige leave Williams as world champion, leaving F1 with numbers 0 and 2 ( cause he didnt want Alain as a team mate?) Of course he didnt stay in F1 but went to U.S.A. To show them Yankies what a Brummie whinger could do. !!!

[Eric Mc]

Rory Byrne is South African - not British?

[micky g]

[quote=Heebeegeetee]MS's car didn't have TC at Donington, I'm 99% certain.

I may be wrong - I'll have to look it up or post a thread to find out, but in 94 there was a lot of fuss, (and still is in some quarters), that Benetton were 'still' using some form of traction control although it had been banned for that year.

Anyone able to enlighten?

Sorry Heebee' - I didn't make myself clear.

What I was trying to say was that in 94 it was found that Benetton (still) had a traction control device fitted which could be turned on by laptop before each race and disabled after, therefore it would follow that this device was on the car legally in 93 at Donnington.

[Eric Mc]

In 1994 Benetton were found guilty of transgressing the regulations a couple of times, although in some circumstances they were given the benefit of the doubt in that the transgression could not be proved to be deliberate -

illegal plank wear at Spa
illegal fuel formulae used
tampering with fuel hose at Hockenheim
possible illegal use of traction control

It was these transgressions which tainted Schumacher's first World Championship - as well as some of Schumacher's on-track behaviour that year.

[ShelsleyF2]

Tainted Schumaker. Lets see now !!! Drove into Damon in full Knowledge that if neither finished he was world champion. Drove into Villenueve, this time he retired Jacques limps home third and wins world championship. Whilst at Benneton have must have been aware of the technical transgressions ( Fuel flow rates especially) He refused to allow Herbert to see his throttle traces after the first weekend when Herbert was initially quicker ( Herbert had no choice and had to make all his setup and data available to M.S.). He is a v v good driver but theres also too much controversy both on and off the track for me.

[parrot of doom]

The onboard software was diagnosed by a software specialist on behalf of the FIA, and was found to contain a 'hidden' menu, which if memory serves Benetton tried to explain away as an old, unused feature.

I think the FIA disqualified them from the championship that year? Or they took their points away?

[rev-erend]

Some great opinions and historical facts.. makes great reading. More interesting than watching most of last year's F1 races that for sure.

Can only hope it improves next year

[Eric Mc]

I didn't think that Benetton were penalised after the end of the 1994 season (Schumacher had already picked up a two race ban for his antics). However, after Schumacher tried to ram Villenueve off the road at the 1997 Japanese GP, Schumacher lost his second place in thw World Championship. Statistically then Schumacher's points obtained in 1997 should not really be allowed in evaluating where he stands "point wise" as he was removed from the listings. In other words, although he raced at every GP - he should get nothing for his efforts. However, the FIA, in their wisdom, in disqualifying him from the championship, allowed him to keep his points totals, win records and pole positions gained.

I think it is the only time in the history of sport where someone has been found guilty of cheating by the sport's governing body and yet retained all the "records" obtained in the course of the season from which they were disqiualified. It's as if Ben Johnson was allowed keep his world record timing even though he was disqualified from the Olympics.

Very odd.

[Heebeegeetee]

micky g said:

[quote=Heebeegeetee]MS's car didn't have TC at Donington, I'm 99% certain. I may be wrong - I'll have to look it up or post a thread to find out, but in 94 there was a lot of fuss, (and still is in some quarters), that Benetton were 'still' using some form of traction control although it had been banned for that year. Anyone able to enlighten? Sorry Heebee' - I didn't make myself clear. What I was trying to say was that in 94 it was found that Benetton (still) had a traction control device fitted which could be turned on by laptop before each race and disabled after, therefore it would follow that this device was on the car legally in 93 at Donnington.

Along with other smaller teams, I'm sure benetton didn't have tc untill some point during the '93 season, and I'm certain they didn't have it at Donny. Motorsport magazine recently did a feature on the '94 season, I'll see if I can find it and report back.

Ross Brawn is still very bitter about the way he and Benetton were treated back then, I think that's why he (and Schuey) largely keep the Brit press at arms length.

The illegal plank as mentioned above wasn't illegal as such. Schuey had had an off, at Spa, which damaged the plank to a point that it couldn't pass post race scrutineering. Back then they measured plank wear, but since that incident I understand they changed the rules and the plank is now weighed.

In the motorsport review, Ross explains away all the cheating accusations. Except the missing fuel rig filter. That's glossed over, which was a big pity. Accusations of cheating should be fully explained by both sides, and motorsport magazine did its readers a big dis-service, there.

Bloody dramatic season that, though wasn't it. You couldn't have made it up. From the death of Senna, to the sheer drama of a tearful Hill in the pits at Adelaide, to the bursting on to the scene of the next superstar. Too much excitement in one go, that's for sure.

[raftom]

rev-erend said:

Is Schumacher arrogant?

No he's not. He's a very naughty driver.

[Bitter'n'twisted]

Ahonen said:

Bitter'n'twisted said: Not as arrogant as most F1 drivers I could name. Besides all that, I have the impression a lot of people don't like him just because he's proved himself BY FAR the best f1 driver ever, and he's German. I can't understand why so many people don't want to see the greatest F1 driver ever racing any more. I am pleased I saw one of his many victories at Silverstone last year. In years to come, people will (rightly) look back at Schumacher with even more awe (if that's the right word) than they do now at Fangio. It's the others lack of performance that makes F1 a bit mundane sometimes, not his excellence. (Example, when it was absolutely chucking it down at Spa several years ago and he went into the back of DC in zero visibility, he was at 100% throttle in those conditions, DC was at around 60% I believe). You're very young, aren't you? MS isn't the best F1 driver ever - not anywhere near. He's a very good all rounder, but he's not the fastest over a single lap. His huge number of victories in recent years has partly come from the reliability of modern GP cars which, compared even to 10 years ago, are metronomic in their efficiency - especially the seemingly unbreakable Ferraris. Schumacher lacks something that makes a 'Great' - sportsmanship. MS and Senna both. Neither of them can/could even contemplate losing, which is why they have both deliberately placed others' lives in danger to prove that they can't be beaten. Okay, Senna only really did it to Prost, but MS has, variously, attempted to take out such as Hill, Hakkinen, Montoya, Villeneuve, Coulthard, Frentzen etc over the years. Remember what he did to Alonso at the British GP last year? Pushed him onto the grass at 190mph on Hanger Straight - much as he did to Hakkinen at 200mph at Spa in 2000. That may not show arrogance, but it displays a certain disregard for his fellow competitors. His perceived arrogance comes from that fine line between supreme confidence and arrogance. Contrast him with Rossi - who's a smashing, personable bloke - or Gronholm, or Solberg and you can see the difference. Those guys are at the top of their game too, but the attitude is different. Maybe Schumacher does have a weakness. Maybe he doesn't have that much confidence in his own abilities. After all, he still insists that Barrichello isn't allowed to beat him on the track. Rossi doesn't need that sort of clause in his team mate's contract...

Very young? If 38 is young, then yes. Cheers!

If he isn't the best, who is?
You will probably now resort to a torrent of ifs and buts. The fact is he has won FAR more GPs than anyone in history, or anyone is likely to in a long, long time. How can you ignore that?
I have avidly watched GPs for years now, and I never used to like MS. But you just cannot deny how committed to racing he is.
You have to ask yourself how he has got himself into the position he has, he didn't just walk in off the street and say 'I insist on driving the best car and having preferrential treatment by the team' you know!

[turbobloke]

Bitter'n'twisted said:

...he didn't just walk in off the street and say 'I insist on driving the best car and having preferrential treatment by the team' you know!

I agree with quite a bit of your post, but I reckon that's pretty close to exactly what he said to Ferrari - and yes, if true, he had to get in the position to do so credibly.

[kevinday]

I see that somebody compared MS with Valentino Rossi earlier. To me there is no comparison, Valentino is head and shoulders above MS. MS has had the benefit of a team totally geared to himself, has had rules bent in its favour and has been 'allowed' to 'cheat'. This makes him a prolific winner, not the 'best'. The Race of Champions shows that he is good, but not better than anybody else. In the current line up there are at least two drivers who have shown themselves to be as good as MS - Jensen Button and Fernando Alonso. Put them all into the same car (let's say a Minardi) and I do not think MS would win.

[marco]

Well, personally I dislike MS intensely and wonder whether the current demise in F1 interest is largely down to Bernie/Max seeming to accept almost anything he does BUT there's a real case for him being about the best driver we've seen since Senna.

And justifiably so! I gather that he puts in more hours testing than just about anybody, is physically one of the fittest guys out there, mentally is completely unshakable and apparently is always calling his race engineers night and day with ideas for improvements. Annoyingly, the guy deserves to be at the top.

I just wish he had more ... soul!

Hakkinen for example was way more exciting to watch - you never knew if he was going to plod around or unexpectantly take a second out of the pack in qualifying. For my money though Senna was the boy, he had that mixture of technique/passion plus he was virtually certifiable which always brightens things up


Marco

[paolow]

Shelsleyf2 said:

Hmm didn't our Nige leave Williams as world champion, leaving F1 with numbers 0 and 2 ( cause he didnt want Alain as a team mate?) Of course he didnt stay in F1 but went to U.S.A. To show them Yankies what a Brummie whinger could do. !!!

wasnt that because senna was world champ (and thus #1) and his death meant that junior team mate hill was upgraded to team leader and coulthard dusted off from testing and made a racer?

[brynt]

Love him or Hate (personally it's the latter) you have got to respect what he has achieved. As for would he win in a lesser car against the likes of Jenson, I have to say i think not (imho). JB is younger and more thirsty for the prize. After achieving seven times world champion and all the money he could ever want what sort of motivation can he have left. He is already immortalised in the world of Motorsport.

[Eric Mc]

In 1993 and 1994 the number "0" was utilised because in both years the previous years' World Champion wasn't around. In 1993 Mansell had fallen out with Frank Williams and taken himself off to the CART championship and in 1994 Alain Prost had retired.

[jimmyc412t2]

mojocvh said:

Don't know never met the man personally.. Mojo.

EXACTLY!

It amazes me how someone can be judged on TV interviews, questionable defence techniques and success only.

I am by NO MEANS a fan of his, but apparantly away from the circuit he's a friendly, agreeable family man. And I can see why. You try leading the Ferrari team with the pressure and expectation on your back, thousands of fans waiting for you to slip up. You would take things seriously 'at work' too.

A lot of Brits still haven't forgiven him for the 'Hill' thing obviously