Nordschleife/956 question
Discussion
I'll start with the premises, as I understand them, but knowing myself I may have gotten some of it wrong:
Nordschleife record is Stefan Bellof 6.11 (practice)
Second fastest is Bellof 6.25 (qlf)
5th fastest is Derek Bell 6.41 (according to "In-car 956", got it for christmas
) Why the huge differencies? Sure the track is extremely long and difficult, and 956-class cars weren't exactly racing there every day I believe, but I still find it a bit strange... Or is it just natural if you put those factors together?
And following up: what was a 'normal' race lap time in a 956?
(Edit: googling around it seems Ickx may have had a 6.16 1000km race or qlf lap, but that is "internet sourced" information)
>>> Edited by tobbeh on Monday 27th December 20:10
There are some great books on both the 956 and more generally sportscar racing of that era in general.
You could get the Haynes published Porsche 956/962 book and also one on the same subject by Ulrich and Upeitz - a great author of Porsche books. I buy all my stuff from collectors car books - they have a website of the same name and are based at Silverstone circuit.
However to answer the question as I know it I think the fastest race lap was a 6m 25s which was from Bellof and without doubt the reason for the big difference is the huge talent of Bellof verse either Ickx or Bell especially at the Nordschliefe.
My personal view is that Bellof made Bell look pretty average during their time together at Porsche.
You could get the Haynes published Porsche 956/962 book and also one on the same subject by Ulrich and Upeitz - a great author of Porsche books. I buy all my stuff from collectors car books - they have a website of the same name and are based at Silverstone circuit.
However to answer the question as I know it I think the fastest race lap was a 6m 25s which was from Bellof and without doubt the reason for the big difference is the huge talent of Bellof verse either Ickx or Bell especially at the Nordschliefe.
My personal view is that Bellof made Bell look pretty average during their time together at Porsche.
Don't think anyone could make Bell look average, but Bellof was considered to be quicker over single laps, IIRC, and Bell was better at Enduro work.
From what I've read Bellof was very brave and very fast and wasn't very good at not holding a pace (i.e. not driving completely flat-out). He crashed and died trying to go round the outside of someone (Ickx?) at Eau Rouge.
Would love to see some film of him in a 956...
From what I've read Bellof was very brave and very fast and wasn't very good at not holding a pace (i.e. not driving completely flat-out). He crashed and died trying to go round the outside of someone (Ickx?) at Eau Rouge.
Would love to see some film of him in a 956...
When you say Bell was better at enduro work - what does that mean?
In the '83 race at the Nurburgring Bell was half a minute off the pace - so one would have to say that if Bellof slowed by this much perhaps he would fit into your endurance driver mould?
It is perhaps quite funny that now - with the advances in technology and materials - long distance races are flat out, even Le Mans 24. We read about these legends but one does wonder if they would be the same had they started out today.
I can't believe anyone today - who was half a minute off the pace of his team mate - would get invited back by the team.
In the '83 race at the Nurburgring Bell was half a minute off the pace - so one would have to say that if Bellof slowed by this much perhaps he would fit into your endurance driver mould?
It is perhaps quite funny that now - with the advances in technology and materials - long distance races are flat out, even Le Mans 24. We read about these legends but one does wonder if they would be the same had they started out today.
I can't believe anyone today - who was half a minute off the pace of his team mate - would get invited back by the team.
I met Dinger over dinner last year and we chatted at some length about the In Car 956 lap. He wasn't really going for a proper quick one - it was merely going to be a lap on camera for a one-off Screensport TV show on satellite telly (as was the case at most circuits). The camera weighed a huge amount, he was driving the T-car, which wasn't properly set up, old tyres etc, etc. I think it was a surprise to him that the lap was the fifth fastest ever. I know you could say that he was reeling off a load of excuses from the Racing Driver's Handbook, but I believed him after talking to him - and I'm a very cynical person...
Bell was the ideal choice for Porsche because of his mechanical sympathy and ability to lap at a metronomic pace, conserving fuel (all-important in the Group C era, of course), tyres and the synchromesh gearbox that all 956s had. He knew he wasn't as quick as Ickx, while Belof was on another plain entirely, but he was a great long-distance racer - which is backed up by all those wins at Daytona, Le Mans etc. Lapping at a set pace is much harder than you'd think and it's something that I've had a little experience of in long-distance racing - though from the other side of the pit wall, of course. For him to be retained by Weissach for around 8 years must count for something, too.
Bell could turn on the style when it was absolutely necessary, though - like during his chase of Vern Schuppan towards the end of LM in '83 - but most of the time he just got the job done without histrionics or drama.
In my book he's a real star - and highly entertaining company.
Bell was the ideal choice for Porsche because of his mechanical sympathy and ability to lap at a metronomic pace, conserving fuel (all-important in the Group C era, of course), tyres and the synchromesh gearbox that all 956s had. He knew he wasn't as quick as Ickx, while Belof was on another plain entirely, but he was a great long-distance racer - which is backed up by all those wins at Daytona, Le Mans etc. Lapping at a set pace is much harder than you'd think and it's something that I've had a little experience of in long-distance racing - though from the other side of the pit wall, of course. For him to be retained by Weissach for around 8 years must count for something, too.
Bell could turn on the style when it was absolutely necessary, though - like during his chase of Vern Schuppan towards the end of LM in '83 - but most of the time he just got the job done without histrionics or drama.
In my book he's a real star - and highly entertaining company.
Bellof is my favourite driver. He made superstar Ickx look very average....
There is a lot of stuff spoken about the Monaco GP where Ickx was the clerk of the course and stopped the race before Senna could pass Prost, giving the win to the Frenchman... The real reason was that Bellof was catching the pair from the back of the grid in a cantankerous Tyrrell and in two laps would have won...
Poor old Stefan died passing the tetchy Belgian at Eau Rouge in a 956, and part of me thinks that Ickx's elbows were a bit wide that day....
There is a lot of stuff spoken about the Monaco GP where Ickx was the clerk of the course and stopped the race before Senna could pass Prost, giving the win to the Frenchman... The real reason was that Bellof was catching the pair from the back of the grid in a cantankerous Tyrrell and in two laps would have won...
Poor old Stefan died passing the tetchy Belgian at Eau Rouge in a 956, and part of me thinks that Ickx's elbows were a bit wide that day....
phatgixer said:
Poor old Stefan died passing the tetchy Belgian at Eau Rouge in a 956, and part of me thinks that Ickx's elbows were a bit wide that day....
Sadly I've seen the crash - there was no way two 956s were going to fit through that gap. Ickx just didn't see - and didn't expect to see - him coming. The in-car footage from Ickx's car is very eerie, as it came to rest pointing down the hill at Bellof's car. You see Ickx leap out of the car and run down the hill, clearly aware something is very wrong.
An old colleague of mine was working at Spa that day - he reckoned they felt the bang (of the contact with the barrier) in the pits.
ahonen said:A very interesting insight indeed. Bell was definitely a long-distance Team Manager's dream, and he could wind it up rather well when he had to! A couple of questions:
Bell was the ideal choice for Porsche because of his mechanical sympathy and ability to lap at a metronomic pace....
How rigidly was a driver's pace dictated by team orders in those days, and did drivers do a 'set' spell in the car irrespective of circumstances?
Back in the fifties we had a simple board with a four position arrow. Up for "get a move on", down for "a bit more slowly please", nine o'clock for "keep the same pace" and three o'clock for "in next lap". Crude, but effective if you could see the thing. Woe betide anyone who dared to disobey, as Duncan Hamilton eventually found to his cost!
The other thing was the rigid 'three hours on three hours off' rule at Le Mans. Not used by everyone, but strictly observed in the Jaguar team. I often wonder how they get on these days, with some of the third drivers getting very little time in the car (if any). Maybe they should go back to the 'two driver' regime, but perhaps the strain is too great with much higher speeds?
You do have a point re: team managers setting a pace and a driver following that plan.
However for sure during the course of a race weekend any given driver will have the chance to go as quickly as he is able. Even if it is just qualifying or a free practice session.
Re: the Bellof/Bell senario it would make no sense that they (Porsche management) allowed Bellof to drive flat out and then hold Bell back. More likely was that at the Nordschliefe the times Bell was doing was all he was comfortable at.
McNab - at Le Mans 24 these days many of the driver choices are many out of commercial necessity rather than ability and there is no 3 hours on 3 hours off rule (just a minimum rest period) - When you look at some of the gentlemen taking part I think asking them to do 3 hours on anything would be a big ask!
However for sure during the course of a race weekend any given driver will have the chance to go as quickly as he is able. Even if it is just qualifying or a free practice session.
Re: the Bellof/Bell senario it would make no sense that they (Porsche management) allowed Bellof to drive flat out and then hold Bell back. More likely was that at the Nordschliefe the times Bell was doing was all he was comfortable at.
McNab - at Le Mans 24 these days many of the driver choices are many out of commercial necessity rather than ability and there is no 3 hours on 3 hours off rule (just a minimum rest period) - When you look at some of the gentlemen taking part I think asking them to do 3 hours on anything would be a big ask!
The best thing about the 956 Vid to me is how little BS there is attached to racing in those days.
I love the bits where they drive into the pits and some fairly scruffy Mechanic in scruffy Rothmans overalls casually waves the car into its bay during the test day. No people standing around trying to look important with head phones on and flash team shirts. And thats THE works car to be with of the time. Fantastic.
Also the old Le Mans circuit looks proper fast until the second lap when they start formation driving for the camera.
>> Edited by Simon Mason on Thursday 30th December 13:50
>> Edited by Simon Mason on Thursday 30th December 13:52
I love the bits where they drive into the pits and some fairly scruffy Mechanic in scruffy Rothmans overalls casually waves the car into its bay during the test day. No people standing around trying to look important with head phones on and flash team shirts. And thats THE works car to be with of the time. Fantastic.
Also the old Le Mans circuit looks proper fast until the second lap when they start formation driving for the camera.
>> Edited by Simon Mason on Thursday 30th December 13:50
>> Edited by Simon Mason on Thursday 30th December 13:52
phatgixer said:
Poor old Stefan died passing the tetchy Belgian at Eau Rouge in a 956, and part of me thinks that Ickx's elbows were a bit wide that day....
Having watched this years Spa 1000km, I wouldn't like to try that move now in a big sportscar, and the barrier is A LOT further back now. Bellof was an awesome driver, but there are certain lines you don't cross. Unfortunately, he did
Ahonen said:
I know you could say that he was reeling off a load of excuses from the Racing Driver's Handbook, but I believed him after talking to him - and I'm a very cynical person...
Bell could turn on the style when it was absolutely necessary, though - like during his chase of Vern Schuppan towards the end of LM in '83 - but most of the time he just got the job done without histrionics or drama.
In my book he's a real star - and highly entertaining company.
You talk alot of sense there! Totally agree with you about DB and I think the above deserves another 'airing'. The Mistral straight footage did it for me, with the mechanical problems they faced in those days!! How does he know his braking point is going to work this time!!!?
Respect to drivers to started in those days, rather than todays (quite rightly) far more safe (in terms of car and track safety) drivers!
Fair point about safety but we aren't comparing drivers from different era's - Bellof was Bell's team mate in the 956.
You have to respect what Bell achieved in his career but he was - no two ways about it - way off Bellof's pace.
We can argue the finer points forever but the stopwatch doesn't lie..
You have to respect what Bell achieved in his career but he was - no two ways about it - way off Bellof's pace.
We can argue the finer points forever but the stopwatch doesn't lie..
Oh god please stop!! No one here is worthy of commenting on the racing standards of the likes of Bell / Ickx / Bellof , I am not having a go or trying to wind anyone up but having a big soft spot for the group c racing era some of the comments earlier about making Ickx/Bell average??!!??!!??.
But its great that people want to talk about the era!!!
But its great that people want to talk about the era!!!
I loved group C too. But it has to be said, there is a bit of a gulf between a top rank F1 driver peddling a sportscar and the usual jockeys... I remember Frentzen in a crud Lola at Le Mans lapping 20 seconds faster than anyone in the wet in '92 (or was it '91?) and seeing Zanardi at Donington in the Lotus Esprit making mincemeat of the MacLaren F1s was fun too.
Bellof was in a different league to Bell and Ickx I'm afraid. We all love certain gruop C drivers (Stuck being a bit of a hero), but pop an F1 driver (who is not retired!) in one of those cars and they take on a completely different gait.
Brundle in the XJR14 at the 1991 Empire Trophy? 4 seconds lead on lap one... Just awesome.
Bellof was in a different league to Bell and Ickx I'm afraid. We all love certain gruop C drivers (Stuck being a bit of a hero), but pop an F1 driver (who is not retired!) in one of those cars and they take on a completely different gait.
Brundle in the XJR14 at the 1991 Empire Trophy? 4 seconds lead on lap one... Just awesome.
phatgixer said:
Brundle in the XJR14 at the 1991 Empire Trophy? 4 seconds lead on lap one... Just awesome.
It was Teo Fabi and it was at least seven seconds. I know because I was stood on the exit of Copse with my jaw in my hands! That car was as far from the original concept of Group C as possible though. Underneath it was a Leyton House F1 Car, I'm sure Adrian Newey had a hand in developing the XJR14.
Teo Fabi was no slouch in a car either, the Benetton of the late eighties wasnt the greatest but he was a respectable finisher in the Indycar series.
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